mentecky
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posted on November 11, 2000 11:33:15 PM
From: [email protected] Date: Sat, Nov 11, 2000, 1:58pm To: [email protected] Subject: [email protected]. We notice you bid often on the above person's auctions. This is called shilling and we will notify ebay of this if we see it happen again. The Ebay WatchDogs in Lee County
You people need a new hobby!
eBay Detective Agency??? eBay Watchdogs??? Who is next? The Duke's of Hazard???
You all know I have been here a long time. On eBay longer. I know this person and you are wrong!! SO BACK OFF!!! I am so close to packing all this eBay crap in it's not funny.
Get a life and do something useful!!!
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bobbysoxer
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posted on November 12, 2000 01:05:38 AM
mentecky
Please don't take this wrong.
If I was honestly bidding on a particular seller's auctions "often" and a busybody emails me with such a message I would have the same attitude and report it to eBay. In my opinion it is interfering with bidding and selling on eBay.
Also did you notice that the person(s) didn't mention you having a "pattern" of the seller's items? I am not expert on shilling but in my opinion there would be a "pattern" and frequency to bidding on a seller's auctions.
Has anyone retrieved your info lately?
not bobbysoxer on eBay
[email protected]
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bobbysoxer
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posted on November 12, 2000 01:15:06 AM
One more thing, since I am a registered business accusers >in my hypothetical scenerio< had better be ready to prove their case in court if their accusations interfere with my business reputation.
In my opinion it is similar to making a citizen's arrest. When one does place a person under citizen's arrest, they had better have a good reason (probable cause) and be ready to prove it in court. Otherwise it is imprisonment, interfering with one's freedom of movement.
not bobbysoxer on eBay
[email protected]
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macandjan
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posted on November 12, 2000 02:16:02 AM
[ edited by macandjan on Dec 3, 2000 02:31 PM ]
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isworeiwouldneverdothis
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posted on November 12, 2000 04:16:53 AM
Oh for crying out loud! Please please PLEASE forward that to Safeharbor.
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HJW
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posted on November 12, 2000 06:24:38 AM
It appears that the witchhunt mentality is still with us.
Helen
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Shoshanah
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posted on November 12, 2000 09:04:06 AM
macandjan...I am with you. That IS called "repeat" customers...
Sometimes it does happen that some buyers begin to feel very confortable buying from a particular seller, with both sides knowing that there will be no bad surprises...
This Policing is very disturbing! Where is the great American Freedom, here?
Little winnie Detectives, go back behind your little curtains and leave bidders/sellers alone. And mentecky, DO forward this to Safe Harbor....
********************
Gosh Shosh!
http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/rifkah/
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reddeer
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posted on November 12, 2000 09:21:18 AM
Once eBay's new anti-spam feature kicks in, this will no longer be possible, unless your user ID is your email addy.
It might be a couple months before this all makes sense, but in the long run weenie private dicks won't be able to email you directly, nor will they know what your email addy is.
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Capriole
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posted on November 12, 2000 09:34:23 AM
The freakshow marches forth....
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shar9
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posted on November 12, 2000 09:42:55 AM
Wow! This is exactly what I have been afraid of. Yes, I recognize there is a problem but who are EBD's to decide if I have purchased from a buyer too many times?
I don't have a large feedback but I have probably bought from one seller 6 times (no I have not counted) and another 3 or 4 times and that reason is by doing a "search by item", their item comes up. I like it and I buy it. I don't can't even tell you who these 2 sellers names are. I am sure I would recognize it if I saw it but not without seeing it.
I wonder if EBD's have ever taken into consideration that a particular seller might just have what I want to buy. They could and do offer excellent service and are polite on top of it.
Maybe you should go through and put a "limit" of 1 buy per seller. I am sure all sellers would agree with this.
I don't know what the answer is but don't you think you should be hired by the community first and could I please see your resume?
edited: to clarify my search was for the item not the seller
[ edited by shar9 on Nov 12, 2000 09:45 AM ]
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toyranch-07
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posted on November 12, 2000 09:44:26 AM
I sure hope so reddeer. The email harrassment of other people's customers and pulling contact info from behind non-transactional ID's and all the other forms of intimidation and harrassment coming from some of these people has GOT to stop.
They think they are 'cleaning up ebaY' but they are helping to destroy it.
edited to say HIYA TO SHAR9 
And to mention that besides the eDA, which now has myself and others pointing out that some people just have good customers and are not shilling, there are also other EZBoard groups and Yahoo! Board Groups calling themselves 'Shill Detectives' and 'ebaY Shill Detectives' and I've heard there are 5 different groups operating on ebaY through message boards.
That's in addition to the Yahoo! Posse at Yahoo!.
http://www.millionauctionmarch.com/
[email protected]
[ edited by toyranch on Nov 12, 2000 09:49 AM ]
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fountainhouse
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posted on November 12, 2000 10:37:45 AM
Auction interference has cost me $200 in the past three weeks. These people are ignorant, amateurish and cowardly, desperately in need of some soul-searching to determine why they get such a charge out of hurting others.
Problem is, they're just smart enough to use email addies that don't ID them as ebay members, so retribution through Safe Harbor rarely seems to work.
I'm seriously considering going to private auctions. I've never used that option in 2.5 years, but it's either that or continue to allow these cowards free access to my hard-earned bidders.
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bobbysoxer
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posted on November 12, 2000 10:37:59 AM
Besides "repeat customers" I think for shill bidding there is a pattern that would suggest such activity.
The Hardly Boys and Nancy Clues of eBay concerns me.
After I posted my previous message I remembered a situation about two months ago that I hadn't connected with the group.
I had several videos close on a Saturday night, woke up Sunday to find an email from one of my customers stating they received an email telling her that the video she had bid on was [paraphrasing] pirated and that if she continued to buy from the person she can be charged with possession of stolen property.
My reaction was to email her (before my first cup of coffee) guaranteeing the videos, used my numorous feedbacks w/o any negs, length of time on eBay, registered business -well you get the idea for creditibility- using customer service with a smile. Then I pointed out the person's user history to my customer (I ran the email addy). The person might have been -1 or thereabouts and they had been NARU'd.
Well after I sent the email I checked the bidder's bidding history and sure enough she had an auction that was closed by eBay. I emailed her back stating that it was probably that auction in particular.
In my opinion the email from the NARU'd should have been more specific. If it was a Hardly Boy he should have been more professional.
Well, I thought it was a buyer who had been stung by the closed auction seller and was helping people not to be ripped off by the seller. However, now I wonder if it was a Hardly Boy.
I wanted to be able to go into their chatroom (can't with a webtv) but now I don't want to touch the Hardly Boys/Nancy Clues with a ten foot pole after I have been able to think about it all in the last few weeks or so.
not bobbysoxer on eBay
[email protected]
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shar9
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posted on November 12, 2000 10:39:36 AM
Hiya Toy,
Haven't got to say hello to you in a long time.
Yes, I followed the Yahoo thing right about the time I was doing a search one day and ran across the EDP only I think there was an X-file in the name at that time and it was either before they passworded it or I could only read a certain part of it but what I saw bothered me. One of the things that caught my attention first was the "0" # in sales by their names which made me start wondering A. were they all new and if so how did they know what was going on but B. and most likely they wanted the protection so they were not accountable or I could even handle an anon name they must use on one of these boards or Ebay.
I have since heard there were more groups.
Then I went to the T&S board on ebay. Noticed there were people there with "0" by their name but represented themselves as either long time sellers or buyers but the feedback didn't show that. (note: there were some with feedback but extremely low along with some higher feedback) Quite a ruckus.
The more I think about it the more this man/woman above me made me wonder how long before the rest of us get a letter.
I think I know that Ebay is falling down on their job and if I were a seller or a buyer being shilled I would be worried but I don't think I'll be calling their 1-800-#.
Toy, I know there is an organization or two ,OTWA being one and the other starts with an "O" (?)but am not a member as I am only a buyer but isn't there someway a representative group could approach Ebay for more help for sellers and buyers? I just can't see a rogue nameless group operating under the guise of Ebay being good for business.
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dman3
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posted on November 12, 2000 11:05:25 AM
This stuff is getting nuts, these vigilance groups are going to emmail or threaten the wrong person someday and someone is gonna get hurt big time.
If they are really such great detective then they should know anyone sending info on the net no matter what ID they use or email or ISP is traceable.
most ISPs wont protect your real name and address from being made public in fact they prefer you make it public in a profile about your self on there website.
Keep in mind these detectives are not really preventing or fixing anything on the web these activity have been going on in the world since who knows when .
remember the days of big mob activity vigilanties groups didnt prevent or fix much of nothing but it did cause lots of lives to be lost.
today there are many laws passed by state and government and mob activity still thrives they didnt prevent or fix any thing just made these mob groups better at what they do.
http://www.Dman-N-Company.com
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macandjan
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posted on November 12, 2000 11:15:36 AM
[ edited by macandjan on Dec 3, 2000 02:31 PM ]
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roxw
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posted on November 12, 2000 11:22:17 AM
We have one customer who bids on almost every one of our auctions. He has spent hundreds of dollars on our stuff and if ANYONE ever thought it was a shilling ring... I'd fight them with my own fists! People should mind their own business and NOT assume anything! In fact, this customer buys regularly from about 4 different sellers, including me... he's got over 260 feedbacks... but 70 are from "unique users". Anyway, I guess my point is... NEVER ASSUME unless you are sure... then I suppose it's not an assumption! Right? I know shilling is a fact of life... but how dare people send email like that!!! NOW I'M EVEN MORE ANGRY the more I think about it... guess I should calm down.
_________________
roxw
I'm learning to laugh! 
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macandjan
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posted on November 12, 2000 11:35:38 AM
I have one person who has bid on a few of my auctions but has only ever won a single auction. Why? Because they are looking for a real bargin and if anyone bids against them they are out of it. They have also e-mailed me a couple times when an auction ended with no bids offering way below my cost to buy things. It has never even kept them from asking that I have never agreed to one of these low offers. They keep hoping! It would be real easy to think they are my shill. They are just cheap.
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isworeiwouldneverdothis
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posted on November 12, 2000 11:45:06 AM
Just for the record:
Repeat customers are not shills. They are the sign of a good seller.
I do not like shillers. Nor do I like thuggery. Both adversely effect the marketplace.
Bobby, I think you need to make it clear that the EDA does NOT endorse such tactics, does NOT promote or recommend such tactics, and if a member of THAT group confessed to committing such acts, would be soundly thumped on the head for doing so.
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shar9
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posted on November 12, 2000 11:56:47 AM
Hello Macandjan,
There lies part of the problem. You are computer savy while most are not and from what I have heard some of these people don't exactly use a business or group address or at least one with a return address to the normal person.
I can understand the outrage of a seller that has lost money because of shilling or is it the bidder that gets shilled and I get aggravated at Ebay for not recognizing it. I must make some desperate but to use similar measures to try to stop it don't they realize they are no better?
I am also wondering if people it is possible that if you do go to one of these groups and complain or try to reason that they might retaliate and my question is does that make the posse's actions any better than the shillers?
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bobbysoxer
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posted on November 12, 2000 12:14:05 PM
-wink- -wink- -nodge- -nodge-
not bobbysoxer on eBay
[email protected]
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bobbysoxer
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posted on November 12, 2000 12:24:30 PM
redeeer
Could you elaborate on this new feature of eBay to cut down on spamming? This is the first time I have heard of it.
not bobbysoxer on eBay
[email protected]
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shar9
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posted on November 12, 2000 12:25:32 PM
Hello isworei,
Sorry for cutting your name short but I didn't get it all written down.
You sound like you are have some knowledge in what we are talking about. Are you a member of the EDP or other group?
If so, could you tell me how you make your decisions? Is there a cut off line as to how many times I buy? Do you meet behind closed doors? Do you contact the seller and ask any questions? Does the seller/buyer get a chance to present a case before your group? Is Ebay there also? Are you working for Ebay?
These are some questions that I wonder about.
If I am mistaken about your being a detective or member of a posse by your inquiry of Bobby, who I do not know by the way, I apologize.
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Buffaloguy
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posted on November 12, 2000 12:43:16 PM
Netcops>> Have been around from the start, and maybe getting worse. The small core that started all this crap is still alive and well breeding new Netcops for the task at hand.I have seen several sellers ran out of business by this group for no reason at all except they had a "tip" maybe a "hunch" !
[email protected]
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reddeer
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posted on November 12, 2000 12:45:37 PM
bobbysoxer
Go here & scroll down a few posts.
http://www2.ebay.com/aw/announce.shtml
Notice how they state:
"The first change will occur in the next few weeks."
Just a wild hunch, but I think it's safe to say this will only be phase 1.
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isworeiwouldneverdothis
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posted on November 12, 2000 12:58:20 PM
Yes, I help out with one group. Right now we are more focused on public education than anything else. And I am privately working on credit card scams originating in eastern Europe--non-eBay related.
"Is there a cut off line as to how many times I buy?"
Not as far as I am concerned--I do not see a shiller under every bed. Shilling does not have to do with how many times you BUY--shilling has more to do with placing bids to either encourage bidding or to snipe an item that is going for far too low a price.
A good reliable seller. especially one who deals in fairly small priced items, will have repeat business. It is called customer loyalty. I sell earrings. My items run between ten and fifteen dollars apiece, and I have lots of repeat customers. I have certain bead dealers I buy from regularly. They sell the special kind of beads that I like to deal in, and they are the type of beads that are hard to come by (vintage Venetian wedding cake beads and the like). And then there are the sellers of cothes for really really fat people--I am a repeat customer of theirs too!
Check a seller's feedsback and get a sense of how much feedback he has actually earned versus the number of feedbacks he bears, and you will see what I mean. One bead dealer I know of had, at one point, feedback of 700, but her total feedbacks amounted to 2200! She had lots of happy customers.
Do I contact sellers? No. I suspect that might be interpreted as harassment, and I don't need to be accused of that. But I don't send out those nasty accusing emails either. I am not judge and jury. I am someone who is good at looking at auction records and spotting patterns. Yes, I do it behind closed doors. Because thuggery works both ways, and while an honest seller would never dream of threatening someone, a crook might stop at nothing.
Do I start put with the assumption that someone is guilty? Nope, I don't do that either. And to be quite honest, of the cases that people have asked me about, more than fifty percent were not, in my opinion, shilling--at least not apparently so. And if it not apparent, there is nothing to report. I do not pull user info.
I do not work for eBay. I was invited, years back, to work for eBay. I did not accept their offer then. Nothing would induce me to do so now.
Personally, I feel that the best way to ensure that people do not get ripped off during Internet transactions is through education. Checking feedback should be a reflex on the bidders' part.
Please understand I have a great deal of concern for honest sellers on eBay because they are getting a bad reputation, and much of it could be avoided if eBay would police its own site. And until eBay does ...
Believe me, I am not the worst case scenario when it comes to detecting. I try to stay objective, and I try not to jump to conclusions.
PS Hey Buff!
Please check out this web page if you take credit cards:
http://www.gingertree.com/fraud.html
[ edited by isworeiwouldneverdothis on Nov 12, 2000 01:00 PM ]
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bobbysoxer
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posted on November 12, 2000 01:09:48 PM
Thanks reddeer!
It is about time. A couple of years ago I began to email eBay [safeharbour] about spamming. They pretty much blew me off.
I would forward the spams but soon gave up and just deleted them. I wasn't getting anywhere. But I knew the spammers were getting my email from eBay because at the time I was using that particular addy for eBay only!!! Then I changed my eBay addy [several times] and still got similar spams and it continues to say the least. I just delete them now. I have requested not to receive emails from eBay friends on my preference list.
Sorry to get off on another issue. But they are related in a quirky sort of way, huh?
-wink- -wink-
not bobbysoxer on eBay
[email protected]
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macandjan
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posted on November 12, 2000 01:37:26 PM
It is sad but true if eBay policed the site there would not be the posse mentality so much.
I had a competing seller very very obviously shilling his own start at $1.00 auctions.
He would put a bunch of bids on identical items from a zero feedback ID. There would be no bids on a $40.00 item he had identical listings for perhaps 10 of them,and he would bid some odd number like $7.37 on several if there were no bids after a few days. Then the ID would be abandoned and never used again after a week. Usually throw away addys like hotmail.
eBay said no pattern there.
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dman3
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posted on November 12, 2000 01:39:53 PM
isworeiwouldneverdothis:
I have a news flash for you a honest seller vender or business with thousands or even hundereds of thousands tied up in ebay and tied up in inventory can and will be more then likely to threatening then the dishonest seller as they stand to lose more by haveing there reputation trashed by a so called detective group or individual.
a person with this kind of money tied up in there business more then likely also has the money and resources to fight this to the end in a court of law.
They will more then likely have the resoureses to track you down even though your actions are behind closed doors and hidden behind different users names and an employee with enough computer skills to get this trace completed quickly.
In fact im pretty sure the really big time honest sellers have absolutely no fear of these detectives what so ever and are so busy they dont even know they exsit and if they got an emails would just delete them with out notice as junk mail.
inter fear with there US or international auction transactions wrongfully and your in for the battle of your life time.
http://www.Dman-N-Company.com
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toyranch-07
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posted on November 12, 2000 01:43:15 PM
isworeiwouldneverdothis~
I'm not a spokesperson for that group, I'm not a moderator on their board, I am a member of that eAuction Detective Agency board to serve as a 'devil's advocate' and to try to stop the spread of misinformation and the persecution of innocent users.
But what you say is true, that particular group, at this point, seems very disinclined to endorse email harassment of bidders, pulling of user contact information, or any other similar activity. Anyone known to engage in pulling of non-transactional contact information is banned from the site. There is no rule about email contact as far as I know, but it is not encouraged or discussed at that board.
http://www.millionauctionmarch.com/
[email protected]
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