posted on November 12, 2000 01:46:50 PM
So what are you waiting for macandjan ? you have one of the main leaders of the Netcops right here in this thread. Email her the info and see if she can find out, just remember ebay has told you once "no pattern" so if the Netcops end up screwing this persons business up they will have you to thank .
I am not a main leader. As a matter of fact, I was out of the loop for a long long time, and probably would have stayed OUT of the loop had it not been for harassment by certain parties who insisted that I was still doing it.
posted on November 12, 2000 02:10:23 PM
Ok Sandy I will have to take your word on that, how about one of the "Main Trainers" for the Netcops?? I have known this bunch for years in the old days we called them "soreheads" remember that folks LMAO !! Im sure Mark does [email protected]
posted on November 12, 2000 02:36:12 PM
Thanks, Bobby. Like I said, I don't see shills under every bed. And I try to be objective. And Bobby plays "devil's advocate"--pointing out fallacies in logic and reasoning. I think that is informative--it shows people that it is not all cut and dried.
A lot of stuff can be straightened out by simple consumer education. "Know thy trading partner."
I love shopping on eBay. I love buying beads on eBay. My mobility is quite compromised right now, and eBay gives me access to things that would otherwise be inaccessible.
posted on November 12, 2000 02:38:51 PM
isworeiwouldneverdothis
I *will not* make it clear that the "EDA does NOT endorse such tactics, does NOT promote or recommend such tactics" because I >don't know< for sure one way or another if my video incident was a Hardly Boy. If I do what you "commanded" me to do, than I will be making -in my opinion- a false statement which I refuse to do so!
Also you wrote: "if a member of THAT group confessed to committing such acts, would be soundly thumped on the head" isn't this a little bit violent for an offender within the group? I wonder what happens to outsiders? I was just wondering.......
Throughout history, individuals/groups who take matters into their own hands start off "good" but turn "evil" along the way. History repeats itself and in my opinion we need to remember history so we can learn from it.
One more thing, remember *many* months ago about a poster talking about an emailer referring to the "Black Legion" in a *threating* manner? The thread was a fairly lengthy one. In the 20s and 30s there was a group called the "Black Legion" and a Humphrey Bogart movie "The Black Legion" (circa 1935) was based on a true story about a man who stood up to the group.
posted on November 12, 2000 02:53:23 PM
I have a legitimate question. As I have scrolled auctions, many times I have run upon those that look so badly I shake my head and move on. Some of them were so bad, I sent them to ebaY. Did they care?
No.
So now, when I find one of these auctions that look a bit iffy, should I report this to my closest EDA or what? This is a real question. And I wish a real person who knows the answer would respond. I think I deserve to know. We all deserve to know when it boils right down to it.
posted on November 12, 2000 02:58:42 PM
Gee isworenevertodothis
This only brings me to ask more questions and as you are one of these members of a group or as some call it posse.
You say your group is more focused on public education than anything else. May I ask, public education to who and I won't ask about the "private" work you are doing on your own.
You see you say you understand repeat customers but others take that as subjective. Well then I guess I am not worried about you but the "others". Is there any control on "others"
One sentence that bothers me, "shilling has more to do with placing bids to either encourage bidding or to snipe an item that is going for far to low." Does this mean "the group" classifies sniping in the same class as shilling and is it reportable or would they maybe be "chosen" as one to check on? For sniping?
You also say you suspect that contacting sellers "might" be intrepreted as harrassment and you don't need to be accused of that and that you don't send out "those" nasty accusing emamils either. Okay, taking your word for it, are you saying you know of members in "the group" that do this?
Are there specific rules against this in "the group"? What rules does "the group" have?
You also say that thuggery works both ways and that is why "the group" works behind closed doors but what protection do the people that "the group" does accuse?
I am surprised that the group review rate is as high as 50% being guilty of shilling? Pretty high rate? I am glad that this group presumes a person innocent until "the group" says guilty.
You also say that you do not pull user info yourself. Does that mean that others do it for each case?
I'm sorry isworeiwouldneverdothis, I would feel much better if you did work for Ebay. Wouldn't it make "the groups" work more credible if all of your group were paid to look at our files and pass judgement.
I am not comforted by knowing one group is not as bad as another, neither of which is working for Ebay.
I guess I would need to know what guidelines and who does a person in the group answer to and how do they keep someone from going too far and what is too far?
Still very, very troubling.
Hi Toy "the devils advocate"
Ahh, but there in is the rub. You say, at this point the group "seems disinclined to endorse email harassment of bidders and pulling of contact info or any other similar activity.
"seems disinclined" to me is a long way from saying,
Absolutely Under No Circumstance!
Nope Toy, I still do not feel reassured and neither I think would any reasonable person.
edited to add:
iswore,
I apologize again for not completing your user id and I also want to say that I am asking these questions in regards to "the group" and not you specifically and hope you will answer them.
[ edited by shar9 on Nov 12, 2000 03:01 PM ]
edited to try and take anything that might be construed as personal to isworeiwould.. I am sorry I still do not think I got your name right.
[ edited by shar9 on Nov 12, 2000 03:13 PM ]
posted on November 12, 2000 03:20:09 PM
I have always been quite dull. One ISP. One ID. One account. I felt I was doing the right thing. However, this thread concerns me.
I asked a legitimate question. Will someone who knows please answer? There isn't much in my little life but evidently somewhere there are people who are not safe.
Matter of fact, is anyone safe? This is kind of sad. To have come so far, to go so far back. And this is what this is about. Not going forward. It is scaring innocent sellers and buyers for whose gain?
DMan I thought that was the rule, it isn't calleed Golden for nothing. Thanks for resonding!
[ edited by millicent_roberts on Nov 12, 2000 03:23 PM ]
I'll quote my first post on this subject on any board...
------------------------------------------
Someone pointed me toward this board the other day because they felt ebaY was acting out-of-hand in
changing the rules without going through the proper channels, and making them up as they go along.
While it appears that may be true, I want to set that aside for a moment and ask a question about this
'Detective Agency'.
Please tell me where I'm missing the point...
ebaY has told people to stop posting User ID's and Auction Numbers on the boards. They've said to report
all this to SafeHarbor and to continue discussing fraud and how to uncover it on the board, but to keep
specific instances off the board with regard to User ID's and Auction Numbers because if someone is
wrongly accused on the board, it could harm an innocent person financially.
What about that is unreasonable and what purpose does having another board to post ID's and auction
numbers serve? Especially a private board that is password protected? Something about this makes no
sense, at least if your intentions are as pure as you say they are. Either that, or I'm missing something
significant.
------------------------------------------
And another from the eDA board:
------------------------------------------
I fully support the stoppage of fraud and an increase in trust and safety on the site. I think it is incredibly important for the future of the site and this marketplace. I do question if this is the best way, or the right way to go about it...
---------------------------------------------
For the record, I DON'T think it's the best way or the right way to go about it. If they are going to do it anyway, IMO it's better that they allow some voice of dissent in their midst than not. It would be easy for them to ban me, or move, or something else, and many of them have done just that.
They were so afraid of questions and dissenting opinions they called me names, bashed me, pulled my contact info, investigated me, and kept making accusations in public forums with NO basis in fact. Now they exist in other closed forums with only those who agree with and support their agenda.
Those left in the eDA are at least willing to listen to a different viewpoint.
And I made that distinction "seems disinclined" because I'm not fully reassured either...
posted on November 12, 2000 03:32:46 PM
Bobbysoxer, I am sorry. I was not clear. I was addressing Toy Ranch, not you.
"Thumped on the head" was a figure of speech. There was one member a while back who pulled user info of a couple of people. He is a member no more. Many of us on the board spoke up and told him he was out of line.
The rules of the board state that the pulling of contact info for any reason other than your direct involvement in a transaction is forbidden and is grounds for getting kicked out. And that members are expected to act in a polite and repsectful manner (I do not think threatening emails would be considered polite/respectful).
I understand about repeat buyers; I am doing my best to educate others.
eBay is the final authority in these situations. eBay is the judge and jury.
I am interested in consumer education. I am interested in the ounce of prevention versus the pound of cure. I am interested in buyers looking before they leap.
I think any time a person receives emails like the starter of this thread received, they should report it wherever it is possible to report it! You can run the email through a program like Spamcop to find out where it came from.
[ edited by isworeiwouldneverdothis on Nov 12, 2000 03:44 PM ]
However I do wonder about your reference to Jimmy Hoffa and your comment to radh which in my opinion both contain violence.
Also, I wonder why you basically say you are not part of the group yet you use the word "we" when you are referring to the Hardly Boys and Nancy Clues of eBay and to yourself.
isworeiwouldneverdothis
posted on November 5, 2000 09:42:10 PM
"Hi RM--thanks for the pumpkin jigsaw. Give Maddie girl girl pats from Aunt Sandy!
Radh, seriously, be careful, okay? Sometimes outspoken people take it right in the teeth. Don't want that to happen to you, okay? Helen, you wanted to know what else was going on with the EDA. I am telling you. We are in charge of ALL those small packages. And we figure that if we win the Bakeoff, we can buy our own server and then NOBODY can tell us what to do. BWAHAHAHAHA"
isworeiwouldneverdothis
posted on November 5, 2000 07:29:40 PM
"HJW--you are right. Lots going on. Super hush hush stuff. Has everything to do with the Pillsbury Bakeoff and 20 lbs of dark chocolate (Swiss, bitterwsweet). That and keeping track of the various small packages that used to be Jimmy Hoffa."
Edited to put the link url in for the thread posting.
posted on November 12, 2000 04:00:16 PM
I didn't expect this volume of response. I'm sorry if I hit a nerve, but that email came to me from a customer that trusts me and my knowledge of eBay. When I read it I got REALLY angry.
I did some poking around and header tracing. We'll see if eBay or anyone else cares.
My only hope in posting it here was to inform the sender that they were entirely wrong.
The reason this makes me angry is that I know several people that have been reported for shilling and NARU'd for it when it was actually just a loyal customer. Not only that, but the customers got NARU also. So not only did a good seller get NARU but also a bidding customer.
eBay needs better policy and these Self Appointed Internet Police (I call them SAIP) need to find some better way to deal with what they think is wrong.
BTW... I am a VERO and I have only ever had two auctions ended. They were selling my software on a CD. I follow the rules to the letter. I even go as far as purchasing the offending CD as proof before filing the paperwork. It seems many people do not bother finding real hard proof before effecting other's financial status.
posted on November 12, 2000 04:35:00 PM
bobbysoxer
isworeiwouldneverdothis later explained to me that the quote that
you posted was a *joke*. Her remark addressed to Radh was just *friendly*
advice. Since I did not know that Radh and
isworeiwouldneverdothis were good friends,
it appeared very, very, ominous to me and I
responsded in such a way that I was issued
a warning from the moderator.
Millicent,
Finding a "real" person to answer your question may be next to
impossible. This cloak and dagger group is really strange. I
sometimes think that they are posting under two different names.
Could that be possible?
I am also interested in an answer to your question. And also,
why do you need a "password" to get into their site?
Helen
[ edited by HJW on Nov 12, 2000 04:57 PM ]
[ edited by HJW on Nov 12, 2000 05:00 PM ]
posted on November 12, 2000 04:43:08 PM
No thanks Buffalo guy - eBay may be falling down on the job but this cure is worse than the problem. I can live with the guy shilling his auctions. It should concern eBay more than me. In the long run his customers figure it out when they are no longer newbies and then they won't bid on his stuff. It is a poor trade off to sucker newbies for a few bucks rather than treat them well and groom them as loyal customers. I just hate to see this kind of thing because it adds to the flames of the bad imaige the media has of eBay as a cheater's paradise.
posted on November 12, 2000 05:27:51 PM
What all of you who are this "group" have done is make me afraid to trust anyone. Is that your aim? Is that why no one who has posted a question here has been skipped over?
A group of 4-5 sellers discovered a shill ring last spring and begged eBaY to listen. Of course we had to "prove" this. We did, but nothing ever came of it. End of story.
Why? Because the pair made hefty sums for the site.
I guess there must be some kind of self-importance involved here, otherwise it would not have 40+ posts with those who are with the "in crowd" protecting their reputations and explaining it to the rest of us, rather badly but whatever. To me, makes no difference.
Guess I'll learn how this turns out sometime in the future. For now, I consider it futile. Just like it was last spring.
Helen, what site and password? There are so many I've lost count.
[ edited by millicent_roberts on Nov 12, 2000 05:30 PM ]
posted on November 12, 2000 05:53:36 PM
First when I was with EDA it was against rules to harass or pull the contact information of another user. I hope the person that sent the e-mail gets nailed.
Questions and answers.
Lets see a group like this would have to have a password protected site. For two reasons.
1. The first is to keep everyone from looking at who is accused, and assuming they are guilty. This would cause avoidance of the auctions. And also possible harassment such as has happened to the person who started this tread.
2. As some one pointed out if a person has a set up that does make a lot of money by unlawful practices, do you think they are not going to retaliate if it is interfered with???
Lets see what else was asked, How is a decision made. Well lets see, a check of the bidder history is done, the feedback checked, the photo hosting setup is checked, the pay pal or other links is checked, If a me page is there it is checked, e-mail hosts checked. Links to web sites checked fro other e-mail addresses that might lead to users bidding on a sellers auctions. If it is such that it appears that shilling, or other violations are occurring then it is sent wrote up in a detailed report and sent to safe harbor. They make the decision of yes, or no to a violation.
Next, Do they work for eBay?? That it is sanctioned by eBay no. That eBay relies on its users to report violation of any type, Yes.
Does the seller get contacted about a case being investigated, No.
Is eBay there, No.
There is a least six groups That I know of working privately on such maters concerning eBay.
I do hope that the person who posted this thread catches the person who actually sent the e-mail.
Please note most folks got into doing this when they found there self's ripped of by shilling. Instead of quitting like most do, they decided to do some thing about it. eBay does not police there own site.
It will be interesting to see how many more folk get turned in for shilling when the e-mail ban shows up. I suspect it will increase the reports to safe harbor on such. As for eBays new software, we will have to what and see if it works.
Roy, note email is my ebay user id.
posted on November 12, 2000 05:54:30 PM
Hello millicent_roberts. Here is a link to the eBay Detective Board: http://pub29.ezboard.com/bebaydetectiveagency. In order to enter their public forums you first need to register an account with ezboard if you don't already have one and then you can go back to the site and enter the password which is exposed in full view under each public forum.
You will have to email one of the moderators in order to get the password to the private forums.
Blanche
Edited to mention that the eBay Detective Agency is the old name for the eAuction Detective Agency.
[ edited by bhearsch on Nov 13, 2000 10:27 AM ]
posted on November 12, 2000 06:18:52 PM
millicent_roberts
I hope you aren't encluding me on your induendos. I have a very respectable business and have no self-interest only that there could be retaliation against those who speak up such as myself. Even though I would be innocent of any "wrong doing" on eBay, the damage would be great.
It is similar to a man being accused of rape of a woman. He is arrested, put in jail and the information is broadcasted in the media. Later it is found that it was another man.
The accusation, incarceration, the penalty and the damage on an innocent person is irretrievable.
I am not trying to convince you or any one else to be afraid I am only "speaking up," sharing my concerns about the Hardly Boys and Nancy Clues of eBay.
I was wondering if your post was a tactic to silence some of our voices?
Whenever an extremist group exists, sometimes there are the ones >including members< who do things to embarrass the group, putting the spot light on the "wrong-doings" or practices that are not accepted by the general public but are oftentimes "not noticed by the group" >until caught<. But in recent years the civil rights movement are holding the extremists groups responsible for members/non-members and/or their "teachings" and "practices" that result in hate crimes or other "wrongdoings."
Edited to clarify my thoughts. Edited againg to clarify my thoughts.
posted on November 12, 2000 06:20:34 PMshar9, I just wanted to mention that the OAUA which stands for Online Auction Users Association is NOT just an organization for sellers but also includes buyers. You made a reference in one of your posts that you weren't a member because you were just a buyer so I thought I should clarify. If you buy or sell on any online auction site you are very welcome to join.
posted on November 12, 2000 06:25:42 PM
eAuction Detective Agency
Gumshoe Club
Welcome, Gumshoes! Pull up a chair, order a drink, and have fun... 566 11/11/00 11:15:23 am
eBay X-files
Old cases, filed but not forgotten... 2872 11/8/00 4:46:05 am
Chief's Headquarters (private)
For the Captains and Inspectors to discuss board matters. 73 11/12/00 3:27:48 pm
---------------------------------------------
Now that I see the place im not to worried "Captains and Inspectors" LMAO !! I was a PI in SaltLake City for a couple years, I really can't see where anyone would take them to serious, but that don't mean they can't be dangerous There is nothing more dangerous than a wannabe Cop !
posted on November 12, 2000 06:48:54 PM
Buff...it's the ludicrous ones we have to be careful of. Because they are so laughable people say things like "they are so ridiculous that I'm not worried about them", which is a big mistake.
This whole underground "posse" "vigilante" "we're only doing it for the good of the honest ebay members" movement is dangerous. I don't care how sincere the beliefs are, how alturistic the motives, eventually it is abused and innocent people get hurt.
I also have my doubts about the position of self-appointed "devils advocate".
I can't help questioning the reason for the "expose" of this latest reincarnation of the "ametuer sleuth's club" now that we know the exposer is the current "devil's advocate"...who's position is a self appointed one of keeping the "group" in check and working along the lines he feels is more appropiate.
posted on November 12, 2000 06:57:45 PM
Your right about that amy, downplaying this would be a big mistake. Seems we are in a time warp or something ? lol... the first time I came to AW many moons ago this was a safe haven for "Net Cops" and then they moved on <snicker> But they are back ! [email protected]
posted on November 12, 2000 07:02:27 PM
millicent_roberts,
you asked me what site, what password?
I've heard that there is a group of these
wannabee cops who have a site and they need a password to enter.
And sometimes, even they have difficulty getting into the site.
At first, I thought that it was funny nonsense. But
unfortunately, there may be an epidemic of spurious and damaging accusations
from such groups so they do pose a significant problem in my opinion.
Helen: I do not know even one person on this messagethread. For all I know, they all want the downfall of eBay and saw fit to threaten me and intimidate others from expressing their honest opinions. I have NO idea why you would state that I am "very good friends" with someone whom my family is VERY concerned about her words.
Bobbysoxer: I was told to watch out or I'd get my teeth bashed in.
Would you feel better about it if I manifesto'd out of there? I've thought about it, I really have. I really don't like being associated with the harm that can come from this, but I was hoping rather to inject some different points of view and reason into the mix over there.
It's really a difficult position I find myself in, because I would LIKE for the site to be public, and I have stated that many times. I would prefer that all of this reporting stuff just not happen en masse at all. I am really very uncomfortable about the whole thing, but tell me please, would it be better if I were not there?
From a selfish standpoint, I want to run away from it all and put it out of my mind. From a more realistic standpoint, I see that it exists, and if it is going to exist, it can at least exist with a little more responsibility with someone there pointing out the flawed logic that is often employed. So for now, I'm satisfied to stay and try to help them understand other ways of looking at this. I can't stop it, maybe I can make it better... or less harmful...
posted on November 12, 2000 07:28:08 PM
Repeat bidders are the best. I feel HONORED when a person bids on more than one item i have listed, and would hate to think that someone would see my customers as the "enemy" -- to me, they are treasures which appreciate the customer service i provide.
This whole thing is frightening, and I'm appalled that it appears to be condoned by eBay. I trust safeharbor to do the right thing, not a group of vigilantes....
Remember the old saying:
"Power Corrupts, and Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely"????
I'd like to know who appointed these individuals my protector?
