amy
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posted on November 13, 2000 12:52:32 PM
Code..the problem is, when people get the idea in their head that "shilling is rampant on ebay" then they tend to see shillers under every bed. The more firmly they believe the notion that shilling is rampant the more unlikely it is that they will see something as innocent.
Actually, another result is that when they are shown that their activities are over the line (such as the two emails you referenced) they tend to classify the reports of those activities as "fakes" created to discredit them.
It is one thing to stumble on something that looks like shilling, do some investigation, and then report your findings to the proper authorities whose job it is to handle these matters. It is something else again to make shill finding your "cause" or "mission".
These individuals have made this a mission...they each zeroed in on a particular category and spend hours each day looking for shillers in that category. They are "sure" all powersellers are frequent shillers (they must think there is no way anyone could get to be a powerseller without cheating).
One series of posts I saw on the EDA before they splintered was about how to "prove" Honesty/Andale was shilling/feedback padding. They didn't find proof first and then make their accusation...they "decided" first that this was happening then tried to figure out how they were going to prove it.
Another series of posts concerned taketoauction...again they were "sure" there must be shilling and they were trying to figure out how to prove it. The shear number of auctions was fortunately giving them a logistical nightmare!
Many time I read references to powershillers as a name for powersellers. I have made sure I don't have my powerseller logo on my auctions because obviously anyone who advertises they are powersellers are automatically targets of this group's investigations. And since they believe the rhetoric they spout it's a forgone conclusion they WILL find the evidence they seek...they will see it even when it isn't there.
These are zealots on a mission...there is NO WAY they will ever believe their assumptions about shilling being rampant could be wrong. They WANT to find shillers. They KNOW they are out there...and they WILL find them...even if those they accuse are actually innocent.
These are people who have judged first and then go looking for the proof of their judgement...they are not impartial. And they are dangerous!
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toyranch-07
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posted on November 13, 2000 02:03:22 PM
Well said, Amy!!!
http://www.millionauctionmarch.com/
[email protected]
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reddeer
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posted on November 13, 2000 02:19:37 PM
As far as fraud, shilling to me has never been the BIG problem . IMO the BIG
problem is with sellers who ship faulty/bogus items, or don't ship at all.
Those are the stories that the press eats up & splashes all over the various news wires.
eBay has made it so that a consumer can use their CC to purchase on their site,
which means the consumer/bidder has the CC company backing the purchase up 100%.
No need for insurance, and they have up to 6 months to debate a charge.
I honestly don't know what more eBay can do to help buyers trade safely?
Of course there will always be buyers who refuse to use the protection offered by
a CC online, and those that bid on items even though the seller has very low feedback, or numerous negs. IMO that's not eBay's fault, and they shouldn't be held accountable for a buyers ignorance.
Same thing as far as buyers who
scream fraud after the baseball item they just purchased turns out to be bogus.
People should be using either i-escrow, or a CC on items that they know have a high potential for fraud.
The protection is there if they want to use it, for those that are too dense to use safeguards, I have a hard time feeling sorry for them when they get ripped off.
What we need more of, is a to hear some positive press about the thousands of
transactions that go off as smooth as silk on a daily basis.
But of course, stories with happy endings don't make for near as exciting/interesting reading.
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mrpotatoheadd
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posted on November 13, 2000 02:30:16 PM
But of course, stories with happy endings don't make for near as exciting/interesting reading.
I won a number of auctions from one seller a couple of weeks ago. When the items arrived, I was happy with the condition of all but one, which I am sure was overgraded. When I contacted the seller to ask about returns, he credited my cc for the cost and told me I could keep the item as a gift, for the trouble.
You'll never hear stories like that on 60 Minutes.
(I sent him a check for the amount I would have bid, given the item's condition.)
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fountainhouse
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posted on November 13, 2000 02:31:46 PM
Will some of the more knowledgeable sellers here enlighten me on the feasibility/success of using private auctions?
As I mentioned in another thread, I've lost $200 in the last 3 weeks due to auction interference. One of the two spoiled auctions was ruined by an email sent to the high bidder, probably from one of these vigilantes. I won't go into the details, as I've already spoken at length about the incident.
Into my third year on ebay, I've never before encountered interference (at least to my knowledge). I can see no other preventive measure to take than to do all my listing via private auctions, at least until ebay takes steps of its own.
Does doing so affect bidding? Are folks leery of private auctions?
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mrpotatoheadd
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posted on November 13, 2000 02:42:37 PM
Lots of opinions regarding privte auctions here:
http://www.auctionwatch.com/mesg/read.html?num=2&thread=118800&id=118800
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mentecky
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posted on November 13, 2000 03:15:56 PM
Hi Code! Yes it's the same mentecky.
I posted the email exactly as I got it. I'm not sure how to tell the person to forward with headers from her WebTV account. I would if I did know.
fountainhouse... I would not bother changing a routine that has worked for so long. eBay has already said they are changing to make email addresses harder to come by.
Can I ask why is it that I bring a valid complaint here and all of the sudden I have to justify it? I posted the full email I recieved, minus email addys to keep the moderators happy. I figured that since the "detective" was not responding to email replies, he/she might see it here.
Code you know that I have been on eBay almost as long as Pierre. I rarely complain and I do go through the proper channels.
I'm kinda wishing Networker was back. At least he admitted to and took responsibility for what he said.
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isworeiwouldneverdothis
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posted on November 13, 2000 03:37:43 PM
Hi Mentecky, Hi Code.
I have no doubt that the email that Mentecky refers to was sent. No, I do not have any proof, but I know Mentecky by reputation, and I do not doubt his word.
Trolls come in many shapes and sizes. I would not put it past one to impersonate a member of a group whose public acceptance has been grudging at best and reviled most of the time, especially if one intended to make mischief.
There was nothing to be credibly gained by a forthright party by sending such an email. I would never do it; hey, it would prove the point of those trashing me all along.
The only thing it served to do is stir up mistrust and enmity. Those two lurk under the surface a lot, and it doesn't take much to get them going.
Oh yeah--more reports of credit card fraud from Indonesia. If you use a service such as Paypal or Exchangepath, please follow their rules about international shipping!
http://www.gingertree.com/fraud.html
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shar9
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posted on November 13, 2000 03:47:49 PM
bhearsch,
Thank you for the clarification. I used the wrong initials. I was thinking one thing and typing something else.
It should have been EDA for the ebay Detective Agency and eAuction Agency.
Toy
I am sorry for the wrong initails. No wonder you had never heard of it.
Watching GS today and just started reading.
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mentecky
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posted on November 13, 2000 10:58:18 PM
iswore...- Thanks for saying you know me and my reputation. I do get a little pensive when I post here because there are those that will yell "Troll" on any complaint. I'm actually pleased that this did not happen this time. Maybe I will post here more often now if this keeps up.  Might even do some possitive posts, who knows?
I also know you have been on eBay for as long as I can remember.
This stupid situation just really makes me angry because the person that recieved that email had been hurt financially. I do not have a problem with IDing a shiller and sending that info to SafeHarbor. But this is different. eBay was not even given a chance to review the information before the "detective" emailed bidders and sellers permanently harming her name and rating that she earned.
I normally would not bother bringing up stuff my customers email me here. I have had countless "I got this from eBay please help" emails. This one just takes the cake.
Oh... Sorry for the NetWorker comment I must have been temporarily insane.
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isworeiwouldneverdothis
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posted on November 14, 2000 06:36:18 AM
This stupid situation just really makes me angry because the person that recieved that email had been hurt financially. I do not have a problem with IDing a shiller and sending that info to SafeHarbor.
But this is different. eBay was not even given a chance to review the information before the "detective"
emailed bidders and sellers permanently harming her name and rating that she earned."
I agree. What that anon did was sheer thuggery. I would encourage the seller to try and track down emails if possible. I do not sanction such loose cannon tactics, and I do not work with people who do. It is against eBay's rules.
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Buffaloguy
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posted on November 14, 2000 09:54:06 AM
You paint a very nice picture of the "NetCops" Sandy, could some one email the password to the EDA please so I can see for myself.
[email protected]
[ edited by Buffaloguy on Nov 14, 2000 11:22 AM ]
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hmngbrd
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posted on November 14, 2000 10:03:54 AM
i have a unique of 70+ and a positive of over 200+ you know what that means? MEANS I'M A REPEAT BUYER....i bid a lot of times on my bookmarked sellers because i like their stuff...once i bought 50+ of one 100 listing so what's the gripe let them investigate.......let them investigate real shilling...check out my next listing...
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Sneaky
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posted on November 14, 2000 10:29:30 AM
Netcops like Sandy/gingertree/cyberyenta have got to GO GO GO!
email me at:
[email protected]
for more horror stories of netcops.
Hurry and tell Mark! Tell him he needs to add an addslashes() function to his Subject parsing too!
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wynter
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posted on November 14, 2000 10:37:21 AM
Buffaloguy, Good luck on getting the pass word.
It’s a board with the mission of educating the public about fraud and how to protect themselves against it. Yet the public can’t look at it. Kind of tough to reach the masses don’t you think!
Wynter
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toyranch-07
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posted on November 14, 2000 11:28:10 AM
Apparently, my comments about the eDA were not thought to be supportive enough by isworeiwouldneverdothis and so I have made my last post to that board.
-----------------------------------------
I'm done with this. From now on, my communication about netcops will be with ebay and the media only. I tried to give this a fair shake, but you are making it personal. Basestealer made it personal. I will not make it personal. I will deal with it with ebay and the media. Please remove me from this board.
------------------------------------------
http://www.millionauctionmarch.com/
[email protected]
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isworeiwouldneverdothis
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posted on November 14, 2000 11:29:12 AM
Buff,
I am sorry. I am not authorized to hand out the password. I would if I were. Perhaps Sneaky can find a way in. He has been known to do that before.
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kitsch1
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posted on November 14, 2000 11:39:09 AM
Good on ya Toyranch
http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/[email protected]/
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Glenda
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posted on November 14, 2000 11:46:50 AM
I thought SneakyDave - in any incarnation - was permanently banned from AuctionWatch?
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isworeiwouldneverdothis
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posted on November 14, 2000 12:00:50 PM
Kitsch, what about me???? LOL, I made him do it!
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kitsch1
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posted on November 14, 2000 12:06:06 PM
congratulations?
http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/[email protected]/
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probater
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posted on November 14, 2000 12:08:59 PM
This is silly:
If the mmission of this organization was to educate and help the public, then why is their board password protected.
They sound like a bunch of thugs to me. . .
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Sneaky
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posted on November 14, 2000 12:14:31 PM
Sandy was booted from AW as a moderator, she shouldn't be here either!
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Buffaloguy
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posted on November 14, 2000 12:18:29 PM
Holy Cow ! am I suppose to be here ! ?? LOL
[email protected]
[ edited by Buffaloguy on Nov 14, 2000 12:23 PM ]
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amy
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posted on November 14, 2000 12:25:04 PM
Buff..I don't remember you being banned I thought the hat left on his own 
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Buffaloguy
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posted on November 14, 2000 12:27:45 PM
LOL I don't remember it has been to long ago amy
[email protected]
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toyranch-07
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posted on November 14, 2000 12:31:45 PM
Just to clarify~
My post above was a quote from eAuction Detecive Agency and was NOT a manifesto from AuctionWatch
http://www.millionauctionmarch.com/
[email protected]
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pattaylor
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posted on November 14, 2000 12:37:20 PM
Ahem!
Enough with the personal comments, everyone. If you wish to discuss the topic, feel free, but please refrain from discussing individuals.
Thanks for your cooperation.
Pat Taylor
Moderator
[email protected]
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rnrgroup
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posted on November 14, 2000 12:38:30 PM
An organization who has to keep their organization "SECRET" password protected and only "certain" people allowed without a well documented set of rules and criteria for "joining" is an organization best left to rot in its own corruption. Some of the people asking to review this organization from the inside, are amongst the most legitimate representatives of this industry. If the organization fears their presence and criticism - it tells us all we need to know about the organization. Another rotten to the core super double secret society - another vigilante group - a la EUPU. Well this one will also go the way all such corrupt organizations do.
The kind of Vigilante action shown in the original email that started this thread sounds legally actionable to me. All the sender needs to do is send it to someone who wont put up with that kind of garbage, and they will see some action. Organizations such as Sandy's eAuction Detectives or whatever they are callinfg themselves at the moment, encourage the type of fruitcake viglantes as the writer of the email appears to be. They are BOTH wrong. If they want to do this kind of garbage the least they should do is keep their mouths shut and go about their business. When they seek media attention and the accolades of the OAI/OTI they are acting as role models for the worst in the industry. Ross was absolutely correct in saying that the only reason these folks talk about it is because their goal is to boost their own egos NOT to really accomplish something worthwhile. This kind of vigilante activity would best be done in a quiet manner, with evidence gathering and pursuit of the perpetrators through proper ebaY and if necessary legal channels, NOT by setting a bad example for all the fruitcakes out there in the public eye.
Now where is KRS to say all that in about 6 words or less!!! -Rosalinda
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Sneaky
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posted on November 14, 2000 12:43:34 PM
Whoops, sorry Pat.
Lo Siento Lo Siento, Accidente', Lo Siento!
I think the anti-vigilantes should have their own password protected board to "out" and discuss the pro-vigilantes. Develop a public Top 10 Least Wanted, and describe their tactics. Come up with a "Safe Haven" for anyone accused of such deeds, and provide resources of how they can get help (however limited). They'd have better recipes too.
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