posted on November 14, 2000 12:45:24 PM new
Rosalinda,
They are not "Sandy's eAuction Detectives". They were there as a group LOOONG before I arrived. They had never heard of me. It was kinda neat.
"This kind of vigilante activity would best be done in a quiet manner, with evidence gathering and pursuit of the perpetrators through proper ebaY and if necessary legal channels, NOT by setting a bad example
for all the fruitcakes out there in the public eye."
We agree on something! Shazzam!
[ edited by isworeiwouldneverdothis on Nov 14, 2000 12:48 PM ]
posted on November 14, 2000 12:52:25 PM new
Sandy..we had better be careful...with both you and I agreeing with Rosalinda she may have a heart attack!
PS..my comments on all this have not been directed to you personally, but to the mentallity I saw when I accessed the EDA a while back. the few posts I saw from you were not in the same vein.
posted on November 14, 2000 12:59:33 PM new
People need to proactively go after these psuedo-detective busybody lunatics. Send copies of the harassing emails with headers to their ISPs. Contact the host of their secret little board and let them know that they are spamming and harassing the Ebay community.
posted on November 14, 2000 01:03:54 PM new
"They are not "Sandy's eAuction Detectives". They were there as a group LOOONG before I arrived. They had never heard of me. It was kinda neat."
posted on November 14, 2000 01:06:41 PM new
Ahh Sandy, but are you not acting as a spokesperson in this thread? You are here explaining and defending. If you agree, why was there an article about the organization? Why are we hearing so much about it, and why are the vigilante fruitcakes now crawling out of the woodwork, or should that be the cake tin to keep the metaphor consistent? I think the article was agreat disservice to the OAI/OTI and your organization might even owe an apology to every poor person who gets threatened or has an auciton ruined by one of these fruitcakes. I find this whole thing a bit repulsive.
There are times I agree with you Amy, and there have even been times that Sandy and I have agreed. Hey, there are things I agree with CRYSTAL on (that was a JOKE)
-Rosalinda
(emoticons grrrr)
TAGnotes - daily email synopsis about the Online Auction Industry
http://www.auctionguild.com
posted on November 14, 2000 01:08:01 PM new
outoftheblue,
Certainlyt he emails should be reported. Whether they came from any member of that board is really questionable. I am inclined to say no. But that does not mean I do not think the email should not be raced.
Buffalo,
Sad but true. Sorry to disappoint you.
Edited to add,
Rosalinda,
"Ahh Sandy, but are you not acting as a spokesperson in this thread? You are here explaining and defending."
----I know. I do not know why I am bothering because I am singing to a deaf audience, overall.
"If you agree, why was there an article about the organization?"
The article happened before I heard of the club. Can't change the past, you know. I would have advised them not to do it.
I am going to go take a nap. I will talk to you all later.
[ edited by isworeiwouldneverdothis on Nov 14, 2000 01:11 PM ]
posted on November 14, 2000 02:38:38 PM new
What a can of worms this has opened!!! Thanks, Mentucky, pattisown, plus many others ...this happened to me...BUT fact remains NOTHING HAS BEEN DONE-so this means ANYBODY CAN MISREPRESENT THEMSELVES as ebay and go scot free and get away wth it??Is this justice? I lost auction sales when they also emailed some of my bidders-BUT when ebay was contacted, three separate times over -from powersellers to psharbor to safeharbor, each time, I got Customer Service Rep saying sorry this has happened to you, we understand how upset it made you, but we do not get invloved in personal emails between bidders and sellers on ebay as well as they have done nothing ilegal as they are NOT regiostered ebay users...HELLO, EBAY...misrepresentation, illegal use of referral to ebay-but nothing is wrong??THE EXACT reply I anticipated from them, seriously ...YES, I sent complete headers (anyone who want to know how to do headers on webtv, LMK); yes, of course they are NARU (not a registered user) so this made me ponder that possibly is 2nd or 3rd problem that surfaced within same time frame-all aol users-yeah, right-1 registered, 2 not, but ebay considered and came out and told me this seller also was NOT registered-say what? Other email addy of a DEFINITELY REGISTERED USER but coincidentally, the seller himself-why do I suspect this? Despite many times I have bought from him at local flea market, he sometimes complains how I make money on his thing, I pay his price, so what's the problem?He emailed me, telling me he was listing some of the items I buy--he told me, specifically told me he is listing two items I buy-Then after I got WATCHDOG email after I bid on these same items, His email to me saying how BAD IT LOOKS I bid on two of his items, (everyone in my area knows I bid on this type of merchandise...I have bought a lot from this guy-so two bids is nothing abnormal) I asked why as I buy from him all the time-he said he cancelled my bids due to someone called WATCHDOGS watching him and my bids-say what? Shilling is illegal and that isn't what I am doing-he is apparently nervous, but not sure why so intimidated-maybe he has something to hide or am not sure what's going on...Their email to him-which I sent him the copy from [email protected] (along with PS after that saying he will sell them to me after the auction because his reserve is so high, no one will bid that much-which makes no sense at all) BUT, coincidentally, again, within same time realm as that email came to me, I emailed them back, for THAT EMAIL to bounce back to me, along with someone else, supposedly unrelated to all this, who had bid, but retracted a $4500 bid on my auction - PLUS all 3 on aol and the major bid, why would someone bid that kind of money on item that has to be picked up (I later ran his user id, finding he is 1400 miles away-makes no sense whatsoever, like someone is playing hoax/game-also, ebay says they did nothing e=wrong, even though his email bounced back to me as NO SUCH AOL EMAIL ADDY-huh?)without first looking at something or asking questions, but turns out, THAT person's email address as well is NOT KNOWN aol addy, either...so are these happenings all tied together or coincidental or all related??
posted on November 14, 2000 11:56:27 PM new
Hi SWF... I hope you don't mind me showing your emails here. I know you are upset, but if you tell these people what happenned I bet they can help you more than I can.
I'm sorry some group decided to pick on you. I hope that we can help.
posted on November 15, 2000 09:28:05 AM new
Swfllady~ I would be carefull sending info out to anyone at this time. I have received many emails from people some giving me names of members of the EDA. Not to name names but I think you might all be surprised that they are not hid out in some dark site some where. They are with us as we speak. [email protected]
posted on November 15, 2000 09:36:03 AM new
Buffaloguy,
I agree. "Detective" wannabee I am not. And, no, I don't particularly want any details. I only offer my assistance with information I know and don't need details of any particular incident to do this.
posted on November 15, 2000 09:41:47 AM new
Hello iluvgarf ....... You bet I'll stand up for your credibility! That's awfully generous of you to offer your time & assistance.
posted on November 15, 2000 07:18:29 PM new
How about getting them for auction interference as not only the seller lost out (item $102 bid on, high bid was just $61; while other high bid was #51, that i feared rebidding on) So financially, both I, the bidder & the seller lost FINANCIALLY,right?I hate to admit I am lost, but I did find out WHO THEY REALLY ARE, but now where do I go as ebay will do nothing, saying Nothing is illegal,so, in essence, misrepresenting themselves as ebay is okay, auction interference and fact I am scared to bid more than once on anyone's auction- intimidation as this person lives in my town, I do not personally know them-they are a powerseller (ID I found is ebay member, although WATCHDOGS IS NOT-though I do know they have yet ANOTHER ID-some of us have one to bid with, one to sell from, common, but other is for illegal to sell in my city/county things).Without getting myself in deepr, I just want to know why ebay drags their feet and they remain unpunished-I will only confer with 2 people-sorry-I only know one person on this board, who says another can be trusted-have been good ebayer for a LONG time, I have commendations, etc-I just don't understand why this person chose me (as well as initimidating seller). Thanks for support-others, entitled to own opinion-I just want them unished somehow for my financial loss!
posted on November 16, 2000 01:10:27 AM new
Hi folks.
Let me introduce myself, my name is Jamey, and I am one of the moderators of the EDA, netcop central, thugs, Hardy boys and Nancy DREWS, whatever you wish to call it
I am not a "detective" or anything like that, I don't have that particular talent.
I would like to take a few minutes of your time to say that I am personally appalled at the original email, and that practice IS NOT endorsed by the EDA group. It is auction interference, and it is just criminal to have that happen. I do certainly hope that eBay will get off their b***s and do something about this issue.
Amy, The people and threads you referred to are from people who are long gone. A group of folks who couldn't handle a simple question from Toy. Thank heavens he stopped by. With help, the fringe extremists have gone off to form their own private board. I don't know what the name of it is this week, it seems to change frequently.
Toy's position as "advocate" was simple. Help us keep from turning into a bunch of vigilantes, finding shills under every rock, and remembering the basic rule, there are people behind those bidder and seller ID's.
He is a calm voice of reason. The very nature of the work he does in trying to make OA's a better place for us all, made him the perfect candidate for the job. He was never in any type of control position of the board, though that accusation has been made by some of the more demented past members of the group.
It hurts the board tremendously to see him leave.
The group that was left behind are calm, rational people, who want to educate the general public to checking out the bidders and sellers they deal with, and helping folks make their online trades profitable from each end.
Yes, there are private areas. These areas are designed for the folks who are working on "cases" as it is common knowledge that if a shiller knows they are being looked at, chances are they will go underground, and improve their "style" for the next time. The people working there feel more comfortable in that type of atmosphere.
Toy was there to help us to make sure we were correct in our information that was to be submitted to eBay, as they are the sole arbitrator to any information sent to them.
It is very important to us to remember that no matter what information was discovered, that we are not the judge, the jury or the executioner. eBay makes it quite clear that we are the ones to police the site, as they will not do it. So some folks got together to form a group to do help each other do what eBay will not do.
And yes, having Sandy come aboard became quite a thrill. I did not know of her, had never even heard of her till someone dropped a link to an article. Having her experience is invaluable.
My points are this. EDA is no longer peopled with the group that first formed that board. Neither are we a bunch of shill crazed vigilantes concerned with notches on a belt, dancing around the campfire, dreaming speculations and massive shill rings out of dirt.
We just wanted to organize an area with information that if someone feels they are being taken advantage of, they have someplace to go to get help.
A lot of folks out here have never participated in an onine auction, coming there for the first time. I remember how lost I was when I first began, and no, I am no seasoned veteran by any means. I don't have a quarter of the experience you guys do
Those are the folks we want to help out. No one "appointed" us, but hey, I don't need an "appointment" to help someone up off the floor if they have fallen down. I just do it.
Geez, time to stop now before I've written a dissertation. But I just wanted you to know what our position is on this issue.
posted on November 16, 2000 02:01:38 AM new
Hello tresrottn,
Thank you for your explanation.
If what you say is true then why not help some of the people here that have been hurt under the guise of your groups name. I would think that you would be anxious to prove to them that you are what you say and help them straighten up the mess they have been put in.
If you are trying to educate the public is there an area of your board that is not password protected and how does the person/s that you are talking about educating find you?
I am not sure whether I am sorry to see that ToyRanch left the detective group or not.
Seems some like his name has been brought up several times to point out that he was now a part of the group and was ask to verify something from one of that group when he was not trying to validate the group by being there but thought it would help to at least have a person there that was concerned with what has been going on.
[ edited by shar9 on Nov 16, 2000 07:46 AM ]
posted on November 16, 2000 05:29:25 AM new
tresrottn: "I would like to take a few minutes of your time to say that I am personally appalled at the original email, and that practice IS NOT endorsed by the EDA group. It is auction interference, and it is just criminal to have that happen."
But it DID happen. If your group does not endorse this activity, are you willing to post in this thread the rules and regulations, if they exist, governing your group so we can all see them? Really, how do you control your members?
tresrottn: "Amy, The people and threads you referred to are from people who are long gone. A group of folks who couldn't handle a simple question from Toy. Thank heavens he stopped by."
What you are saying is that there is no accountability or control for anything anyone in your group does? You are saying that if toyranch, an outsider, hadn't "stopped by" things would have continued?
tresrottn: "My points are this. EDA is no longer peopled with the group that first formed that board. Neither are we a bunch of shill crazed vigilantes concerned with notches on a belt, dancing around the campfire, dreaming speculations and massive shill rings out of dirt."
You are saying that you are no longer "shill crazed vigilantes"? That means you were shill crazed before toyranch stopped by? If so, what is to stop you from becoming shill crazed vigilantes again?
tresrottn: "eBay makes it quite clear that we are the ones to police the site, as they will not do it."
Did they in fact explicitly agree/appoint/hire you to "police the site" or is this an assumption on your part?
tresrottn: "We just wanted to organize an area with information that if someone feels they are being taken advantage of, they have someplace to go to get help."
Where is that? Can you publicly post the URL?
Shar9 has a point. What are you doing to correct mistakes after the damage has been done?
posted on November 16, 2000 08:27:34 AM new
Hi Jamey~
I would agree with much of what you say.
Part of the problem is that while MOST of the people posting on that board are folks who genuinely DO want to help others, the very nature of the activity attracts others who persue personal agenda or vendetta, those who do it for ego kicks, those who feed off of anger in their efforts, and all sorts of other 'unsavory' types who wish to do much more than simply to help others. Their influence creates a culture of suspicion. Suddenly, just as Amy said above, people start seeing 'wrong' where there is none. That leads to intimidation and bullying just as is evident in the letter that caused this thread to start.
I don't believe anyone at eDA sent that email, but really, I have no idea who is even there!
As far as procedures and trying to insure fairness, there were none in place as of yesterday when I left. Everything was being done very haphazardly, in my opinion. Granted, not much was happening though...
Let's face it, most of the 'detectives' left. They didn't want to be questioned, they didn't want to consider the possibilty that what they see is not wrongdoing, but normal business and certainly didn't want anyone to say that.
Shilling is NOT rampant on ebaY. It's NOT. But now a bunch of people who are new or inexperienced believe that it is, because of the 'culture of suspicion' that has been created. I keep seeing posts on the ebaY board about 'Don't use the proxy bidding system' and 'PowerSellers are PowerShillers'. Fact is, people build businesses on ebaY and have good repeat customers and that is a GOOD thing.
Now MY customers have been tampered with also. One of my underbidders was emailed about the 'suspicious' (0) feedback bidder who outbid him. The (0) feedback bidder just wired $1000 from Singapore to my account to pay for that auction, but the underbidder didn't bid again because he was afraid he was being shilled due to that email. The item should have sold for more. And I don't believe anyone at eDA had anything to do with that either, but someone did. Messing with other people's businesses and livelyhoods is not OK.
No matter the good intentions you may have, you attract those with malicious intentions as well, and after the last round of attack and baseless innuendo leveled at me on the eDA board because I voiced my honest opinion in this very thread, I left. I tried to give it the benefit of the doubt, I really did.
posted on November 16, 2000 06:25:21 PM new
Buffaloguy,
I have deleted two of your posts because they contained information that could be deemed personal or contained an Ebay I.D. or a link to an Ebay sellers page.
Please do not post any identifying information or a sellers I.D. without following the procedure in the CG's.
posted on November 16, 2000 08:40:53 PM new
OK thanks Joice ! hard not to take this personal when all this affects how I and many other folks make a living.
The stuff you wiped out proves that this whole "NetCop" issue stinks to high heaven, but I will respect your wishes. [email protected]
Just wondering if the Hardly Boys and Nancy Clues Club of eBay have By-Laws and what are they? Do you have a President, Vice President, Secretary, Treasurer, Board Members, committees?
Your image is not very good. Not withstanding the lone wolves on the prowl but in particular the secrecy of your meetings and by-laws. In my opinion you have a lot of work to do if you want to convince people that you are the good guys/girls.
BTW I don't care for some of the postings that insinuates that anyone with a decenting voice has something to hide such as shilling practices. Which doesn't help your image. The propaganda tactics don't go over too well with some of us like myself.
posted on November 17, 2000 05:48:18 AM new
This idea of reasonable people vs the cowboys
reminds me of when I was in High School. It was a particularly rough school in the industrial side of town and it was inevitable that I have some conflicts. The problem was that I had a cousin going to the school one grade ahead of me who thought it was his family duty to protect me. I was 6 foot 220 lbs and really did not need the help but he was an enthusiastic volunteer. Much much more than I wanted to be protected. He had a skill at turning what might have been a short scuffle into a full fledged riot.
Lord protect us from helpfull people!
[ edited by macandjan on Nov 17, 2000 05:50 AM ]
posted on November 17, 2000 01:29:59 PM new
MOST RECENT UPDATE: Case closed as i spoke with ebay supervisor-they feel this [email protected] committed no auction interference nor illegally representing them as branch/arm of ebay-huh? So it is okay they are impersonating ebay, I am told, hm...how interesting is alright.SAY WHAT??
Since I found out who this person actually is, am unsure how or what to do, although forgeting about it is probably all I can do; I just think they need to be punished, though ebay's final say, saying nothing illegal has been done, no violation citing, no suspension, both the bidder & seller lost finacially (yes, I had item resold at profit), but no punishment from ebay whatsoever.
Yes, I plan on bidding again on this seller's auction agin, they are confused with definition of shilling for one, plus I can bid on whoever's auction I please & just watch me get cited by ebay for shilling if this person follows through with their threat-Stupid me lost all 3 things, but reserve was not met, I bid on as I feared rebidding, whilst bids cancelled by seller who wwas intimidated by them as well-ALL WAS DULY NOTED WITH HEADERS,etc and proof, but ebay refuses to budge-so who is this person and why does ebay side with them?
BUT I don't understand how a repeat bidder who has bought, paid for many things from same seller, can be confused with this person's IMPERSONATION/representing themseleves as ebay and shilling-telling me I cannot rebid, then my bids cancelled-to me, this is FINANCIAL LOSS-I can quote from ebays rules about this,too!
I figured they were jealous or I was buying what was intended for them-BUt I do not personally know this person, though I know of them.
NOT FAIR they are let off the hook without even a warning-thanks to those who offered to help-I appreciate it, although since ebay says nothing is done, case closed, then that's it..They have been cited for their registered ebay auctions, but since this id they used is not registered at ebay, then they are not liable under current rulings... BUT IS SAME PERSON who is registered under another email addy-I proved two are one, but useless!
It was said, however, another auction interference law on ebay soon coming when this type of thing happens...this was interference, though with BOTH SELLER who cancelled my bid due to this person'as email to them, as well as financial loss to me-so I can't figure out why they get off scot-free! Turns out,too, they have two regostered ID's, at least while this one was not...hm...
posted on November 17, 2000 02:32:18 PM new
A little late getting back to this thread, but I too will vouch for Garf! -Rosalinda
TAGnotes - daily email synopsis about the Online Auction Industry http://www.topica.com/lists/tagnotes
posted on November 19, 2000 09:09:02 PM new
tresrottn: "I would like to take a few minutes of your time to say that I am personally appalled at the original email, and that practice IS NOT endorsed by the EDA group. It is auction interference, and it is just criminal to have that happen."
But it DID happen. If your group does not endorse this activity, are you willing to post in this thread the rules and regulations, if they exist, governing your group so we can all see them? Really, how do you control your members?
Answer:
The group no longer exists. It was disbanned, and the board dismantled this weekend with no notice from our ezop.
Yes, there were rules, made only after the group split.
tresrottn: "Amy, The people and threads you referred to are from people who are long gone. A group of folks who couldn't handle a simple question from Toy. Thank heavens he stopped by."
What you are saying is that there is no accountability or control for anything anyone in your group does? You are saying that if toyranch, an outsider, hadn't "stopped by" things would have continued?
Answer:
What I am saying was exactly what I said. Those people were no longer associated with the EDA, however their vigilante tactics had left a big smear on the board reputation. It was due to the simple questions Toy asked that caused a major board war carrying over several boards, and resulted with the split of the group. I am sure that it is not what Toy intended, but it brought to the forefront the mentality that was the driving force behind the boards activity at that point in time.
tresrottn: "My points are this. EDA is no longer peopled with the group that first formed that board. Neither are we a bunch of shill crazed vigilantes concerned with notches on a belt, dancing around the campfire, dreaming speculations and massive shill rings out of dirt."
You are saying that you are no longer "shill crazed vigilantes"? That means you were shill crazed before toyranch stopped by? If so, what is to stop you from becoming shill crazed vigilantes again?
Answer:
In a word? Yes. The "shiller under every bush" mentality was alive and well. The unwritten slogan of the group and it's leader was "NARU a shiller a day".
Don't get me wrong. That group is still alive and well. Led by that slogan, they operate on a totally private board now, with no culpability to their actions. They now answer to no one. They were and still are the real danger.
Not what was left of the EDA. The group that remained behind were calm rational adults capable of thinking for ourselves. We knew there wasn't "rampant shilling" on eBay, but it did exist. With the sheer numbers of the people using that venue, there is no choice but to have people with less than honorable motives in the arena.
tresrottn: "eBay makes it quite clear that we are the ones to police the site, as they will not do it."
Did they in fact explicitly agree/appoint/hire you to "police the site" or is this an assumption on your part?
Answer:
Read the eBay rules. Under Safeharbor investigations. And the message boards where it is pounded into our heads daily by the pinks, "We are only a venue, it is up to the user to report infractions."
tresrottn: "We just wanted to organize an area with information that if someone feels they are being taken advantage of, they have someplace to go to get help."
Where is that? Can you publicly post the URL?
Answer:
As stated above, up until this weekend, I would have gladly posted the public areas link. It is now defunct. Now of no use.
Shar9 has a point. What are you doing to correct mistakes after the damage has been done?
Answer:
Since no one from the EDA ever took responsibility for those actions, (2 to date, I believe) there was nothing that could be done by us. All we could do was offer our sympathy and suggest options for help that had already been suggested by this boards members.
I doubt swfllady would have forwarded any emails with full headers for the group to investigate, I doubt that we could have done much more than what she had already done. Of course, she still gets kicked in the teeth by eBay as is now apparently a common practice. I do most strongly suggest that she follow up with ebay in resending the information as the incident is clearly auction interference.
Either way, All arguments for or against the EDA are now moot.
The EDA is gone. However, keep in mind that the original group is still out there. I believe Toy has the link to that board where you can stand outside and try to see in the blacked-in windows. They will present themselves as people with an almost divine mission, led by a 23 year old with visions of rampant shilling on eBay. Where is the real danger now?
Toy, As a side note, I am so very sorry the now your auctions have been interfered with.
It just sickens me that these extremists actually believe that in order to protect themselves they must lash out in this manner at their percieved attacker.
One of the unwritten rules has always seemed to be "you can hate each other, scream at each other, write the most vile of messages back and forth to each other, but auctions are NEVER interferred with." This is a new generation of people out here now. Scary in the least who seem to have no problem with messing with a persons livelyhood.
posted on November 19, 2000 11:21:10 PM new
Jamey wrote:
"That group is still alive and well. Led by that slogan, they operate on a totally private board now, with no culpability to their actions. They now answer to no one. They were and still are the real danger."
First of all, thank you very much for your posting. I appreciate it.
Secondly, apparently they have gone "underground" so to speak of course. This is very typical of extremist groups. Are they a danger? I agree. To others and to themselves Has a monster been created? In my opinion yes. Will they meet the same fate as other extremist groups that are/were a cancer? In my opinion yes.
Apparently the group is being led by a kid. He/she will learn the hard way and so will the rest of the group that they are doing is wrong. Which is a walk of life for everyone. We all learn the hard way if we don't glean from others' advise, guidence, suggestions, wisdom and education.
I remember a Twilight Zone episode (original) that was about a man who thought he was so "perfect" and he -by using Twilight Zone magic- was going to transform all the people he didn't like or whatever into "little people." Well, in the end it was him that shrunk.
Alot of the earlier TZ shows had themes relating to the "Blacklisting of Hollywood" that stemmed from the communist witch hunts. The Hardly Boys and Nancy Clues of eBay *alleged* tactics, ambitions and goals makes me think of not only of the communist witch hunts but also the current white supremacies throughout the world.
BTW before I go, I read a book some 20 years ago that stated the European Inquisition began in Germany because someone wanted some property so they accused the person as being either a witch or a warlock -I can't remember the gender. Alot of the accusations had motives of acquiring the land and property of the accused, such as this throughout the witchhunt period.
A vast majority of the victims were women who at that time were "weak and powerless" due to the inquisitioner's interpretation of the Bible.
So who better to be falsely accused than an eBayer who can't afford to hire an attorney to defend themselves? Or so they think anyways.
I would prefer to reply to you in private and you don't have your email addy in your AW profile and I checked "mentecky" on eBay but you are not using that.
posted on November 21, 2000 03:44:41 PM new
Anyone up for a cup of tea or turtle soup ??
Don't fool your self the "NetCops" are alive and well and up to more dirty tricks im sure. I do have the URL to the site they use. Just email me and I will send you the link.
[email protected]
[ edited by Buffaloguy on Nov 21, 2000 03:47 PM ]
This topic is 6 pages long: 1new2new3new4new5new6new
