stockticker
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posted on November 20, 2000 11:36:27 PM
Sorry, Pocono. For some reason this thread has me bristling.
Irene
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reddeer
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posted on November 20, 2000 11:42:15 PM
Yes, and it shows.
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stockticker
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posted on November 20, 2000 11:46:54 PM
Good night, Neil. 
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Crystalline_Sliver
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posted on November 21, 2000 12:04:32 AM
A little more research pulls up this little info:
If you look at the witnesses for the French, 3 Computer Experts contend a Filtering System would "effectively filter 90% of the stuff coming thru."
One problem folks: FILTERING SOFTWARE HAS MAJOR FLAWS!!
I know Peacefire would love this bit of info...
:\\\"Crystalline Sliver cannot be the target of spells or abilities.
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grumpyebayer
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posted on November 21, 2000 12:56:54 AM
"One reason the matter has been so vigorously contested is that Yahoo already has a French site, which abides by local laws and bans auctions of all Nazi material. Yahoo Germany observes a similar ban in that country."
Seems like Yahoo has made a fair effort to abide by French law. The french citizens are the ones that are trying to circumvent the law.
Yahoo plans to ignore the order from the french court. What can France do if Yahoo ignores the order? Force feed Yahoo's CEO cheap cuts of meat in heavy sauces? Try to give California Euro-Disney? Make American's wear LaCroix? Threaten us with thier intergalatically feared military?
The US could and still can afford to be neutral during any war. We just choose to be busybodies. We were never in danger of being occupied by the Nazi's.
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macandjan
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posted on November 21, 2000 01:41:29 AM
[ edited by macandjan on Dec 4, 2000 01:32 PM ]
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reddeer
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posted on November 21, 2000 09:30:08 AM
Dang, I missed my big chance of saying
"Good Night Irene" 
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chum
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posted on November 21, 2000 10:21:09 AM
Yahoo! Will Ignore French Ban
http://www.cbsnews.com/now/story/0,1597,250927-412,00.shtml
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twinsoft
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posted on November 21, 2000 11:14:08 AM
It is the mark of civilization that its members sacrifice personal freedoms for the general good. That was the subject of Freud's "Civilization And Its Discontents."
Laws that are by nature prohibitions sometimes may be a mild annoyance to a majority of citizens. For example, most of us would never ever jaywalk. However, there may come a time, because of exceptional circumstance, when we might commit an action of jaywalking. Since we know jaywalking is dangerous to ourselves and others, we are willing to each of us sacrifice our right to meander about in traffic. Denying our own personal freedoms (the freedom to konk my neighbor on the head and steal his money) are what allows us to live together in civilized society.
Macandjan, "When it suits the momentary purpose of government we are supposed to regard someone as the enemy and kill them." Is this your take on the Holocaust? Come on, now. You are getting lost in rhetoric.
Any law enacted (and I don't know what France thinks they can do about it) is bound to chafe some, outrage a few, meet some approval, and create indifference in most. I am aware of two sides to this argument. The French government acted not out of spite but to protect people. That excuses their silliness in my opinion.
Stockticker, wow! Give 'em both barrels.
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Crystalline_Sliver
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posted on November 21, 2000 12:30:59 PM
Here's another point to come across:
If this French Ruling is the sign of the times, what's to keep China from ruling aganst a Disident Group Website in the US for Treason?
Or the Japanese Goverment from suing Playboy, Penthouse and Hustler's Websites for showing material that violates their Morality laws?
As the Internet grows, the laws have to play catch up. Look at the Napster Case. They have drawn laws from the DMCA, and various cases laws from the past to defend themselves.
And, most of the laws are based on PHYSICAL property. Stuff you can hold.
Problem is, the current laws don't adquately cover the DIGITAL Realm.
Currently, the EU is trying to adopt a uniform Law of the Internet that would cover the EU only; only time will tell before "it" clashes with everyone else.
This French Ruling is a harbringer of things to come. It's only a matter of time before you have to argue whether or not "that' law is right or not.
As an old quote goes; "Stop the problem at it's source."
Only 3 more months before Yahoo has to comply or pay fines.
:\\\"Crystalline Sliver cannot be the target of spells or abilities.
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RB
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posted on November 21, 2000 01:43:40 PM
Stocktiker ... "Perhaps your point of view might be different if U.S. had ever been occupied by Nazi Germany?"
That is irrelevant. I, nor my family are responsible for what happened in Europe 60 years ago ... any more than we are responsible for the problems being experienced by our Aboriginal population today.
Using your logic, perhaps we should dismantle all the museums of the world too, and ban all military history books from our libraries. After all, there may be the odd Swastika in there ...
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stockticker
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posted on November 21, 2000 01:58:59 PM
RB: I never said you were responsible. I never said you couldn't collect whatever you wanted to collect if permissable (in your case) under Canadian law.
I am saying that if you want people to respect your rights and feelings, perhaps you need to respect the rights and feelings of others.
As far as the need to remember WWII so history doesn't repeat itself, I think pictures of inmates in concentration camps that are preserved in museums are far more potent reminders of that period than pictures of Adolf Hitler or whatever neo-Nazis collect. And no, I'm not Jewish.
Irene
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reddeer
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posted on November 21, 2000 03:24:09 PM
"or whatever neo-Nazis collect"
Irene ..... I doubt that Militaria collectors would appreciate being referred to as "neo Nazis".
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stockticker
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posted on November 21, 2000 03:40:58 PM
Tough. I can't relate to anyone who takes pride in collecting anything deifying Hitler.
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reddeer
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posted on November 21, 2000 03:49:27 PM
deifying Hitler????
Me thinks you don't understand the numerous reasons why Militaria collectors purchase/collect these items?
That would be like stating that anyone who collects racially derogatory items, is a racist. Sorry, not even close.
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stockticker
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posted on November 21, 2000 04:05:56 PM
Reddeer: Yes, of course there are numerous reasons. I just don't have sympathy for a seller of items which DO deify Hitler (and yes I am sure there is plenty of German war memorabilia which does not fall in that category) who feels that France has no right to try to prevent sales of those types of items to French citizens.
Irene
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Crystalline_Sliver
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posted on November 21, 2000 04:22:59 PM
Try this article for size:
http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,2656250,00.html
:\\\"Crystalline Sliver cannot be the target of spells or abilities.
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macandjan
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posted on November 21, 2000 04:34:26 PM
[ edited by macandjan on Dec 4, 2000 01:32 PM ]
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stockticker
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posted on November 21, 2000 06:18:31 PM
O.K. - let me try a different tack.
Wars between countries generally always have one root cause - one country's unwillingness to recognize the territorial sovereignty of another country.
There are horrific civil rights abuses going on in the world, but not a single country ever goes to war to stop it. Why? Self preservation - the knowledge that if you don't respect another country's right to govern itself, you can't expect other countries to respect your right to govern your own country.
Global trade requires co-operation between countries. That can only happen if there is respect for each country's territorial sovereignty whatever you think of their laws. That's just the reality.
Irene
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stusi
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posted on November 21, 2000 07:21:04 PM
they say if you want to stay friends with somone that you shouldn't discuss religion or politics. not that there isn't a time and place for honest discussions of these very important and sensitive topics. this board may not be the best forum for such a discussion. there have already been some people who have begun getting into the more inflammatory side of the YAHOO related issue. censorship is an issue worth discussing, but one can't expect to discuss anything nazi-related without causing heated conversation on a public board like this. i suggest we keep it to auction-related issues.
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ioughta
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posted on November 21, 2000 08:57:05 PM
Interesting subject - multi faceted approaches from each country.
One question-- can the French government declare this rule on anything it wants - besides drugs and contraband. For example, no ugly blue vases? Just a thought...
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RB
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posted on November 22, 2000 06:10:19 AM
Well, I remember an ugly blue vase that fell on my foot 30 years ago ... brings back too many painful memories ... I think these items should be banned
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Crystalline_Sliver
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posted on November 22, 2000 12:29:07 PM
Maybe this commentary shows more light?
http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/comment/0,5859,2657079,00.html
:\\\"Crystalline Sliver cannot be the target of spells or abilities.
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genie9
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posted on November 22, 2000 07:31:44 PM
Irene,
I am personally grateful that the Americans saved the commonwealth from the idiocy of our own governments during the war.
Thank you America!
The German and French governments have bigger problems to deal with (i.e. racial violence that occurs right under their noses - where their thumbs happen to be) than pursuing lawsuits against US internet companies who are not breaking US law.
How about pursuing lawsuits against the companies still in business today on their own soil who actively assisted the Nazi regime? Just a thought.
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macandjan
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posted on November 22, 2000 08:02:25 PM
[ edited by macandjan on Dec 4, 2000 01:32 PM ]
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fonthill
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posted on November 22, 2000 10:15:45 PM
One of the best threads I have ever read!
The real meat of the matter though is that neo-nazi groups are prevalent in Germany and France and these objects are icons to them. The governments are trying to stop the trade in these artifacts for that reason. Of course its like putting a bandaid on an amputated arm! Nazi items can easily be had throughout Europe, even Germany, and can be smuggled across European borders in normal mail sacks marked only as "antique medals, flags etc" without questions. If French and German buyers wish to continue collecting, then American buyers need only sell items under the guise of Weimar Republic, or German Socialist Party (or whatever it is that Nazi stands for, I have forgotten at the moment), or even Austrian fascist era blah blah... There are so many ways around this law - that is why the whole thing is sooooo stupid. Especially when you consider that the biggest French fascist of them all - Coco Chanel has been exporting clothes around the world for 46 years with not one complaint! (She spent most of the war shacked up with a Nazi colonel in a Paris hotel).
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macandjan
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posted on November 23, 2000 01:11:59 AM
[ edited by macandjan on Dec 6, 2000 03:35 PM ]
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fonthill
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posted on November 23, 2000 06:51:44 AM
Has it occured to anyone that the French government, by its actions of not allowing its citizens to even view the objects online are being fascists? Don't forget the book burnings in Germany and the curfews, and the law about park benches for jews only etc. etc. that were created under German fascist regime. What will be next for the French - making it illegal to teach it in school?
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macandjan
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posted on November 23, 2000 07:27:54 AM
[ edited by macandjan on Dec 6, 2000 03:35 PM ]
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RB
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posted on November 23, 2000 08:39:49 AM
Why should there be any need for 'exemptions'? I cannot understand why people today get so up tight about this stuff. It's history, for crying out loud. If it bothers you, then maybe you have some kind of a guilt complex. Most people don't collect military memorablia and they have nothing against anyone who does, or anyone who sells this stuff.
Like someone stated earlier, this 'argument' cannot have a winner (kinda like the US election).
Get over it already
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