posted on November 23, 2000 07:11:58 PM new
I am sure that most of you have heard the news about eBay removing the auctions that were for Kevin Mitnick. Well, what I don't understand is how can they refuse to allow Kevin Mitnick's personal items and state that these items do not meet their community standards, but at the same time allow Nazi memorabilia to be sold by the truckloads?
Just a thought.
[edited for spelling]
[ edited by dutchbid on Nov 23, 2000 09:01 PM ]
posted on November 23, 2000 07:42:19 PM new
Kevin Mitnick is perhaps the world's most infamous hacker. There have been many books and a couple of movies about him. He was plastered all over the news when he was released from prison. His release had a clause that he not touch a computer until the year 2003.
posted on November 23, 2000 08:05:02 PM new
It's obvious that Kevin did not list those auctions himself. If he had, Ebay would not have been able to shut them down
The light at the end of the tunnel will turn out to be an oncoming train.
posted on November 23, 2000 08:12:41 PM new
It stated in the auctions that they were placed by Kevin's father. Mainly the items consisted of his first computer, a cell phone and prison ID card... all owned by Kevin.
A gun formerly owned by Billy the Kid, Nazi memorabilia... all okay, but not Kevin Mitnick's first computer?
I have been in talks with his father. Kevin's items are more than welcome at the site that I work for. I think that it is disgraceful how eBay picks and chooses what is right and what is wrong.
[ edited by dutchbid on Nov 23, 2000 09:01 PM ]
posted on November 23, 2000 08:21:29 PM new
dutchbid- do you have a vested interest in dutchbid.com? why were you "in talks" with mitnick's father? if not, please excuse the question. if so, i don't believe these message boards are supposed to be used for selling or promoting.
posted on November 23, 2000 08:34:43 PM new
i am in complete agreement with you that to allow one and not the other is contradictory. there were some charity auctions that were selling nazi stuff. does anyone know if there are any laws about selling things that can promote hate crimes? this entire topic will inevitably provoke strong feelings and perhaps should not be discussed on this board.
posted on November 23, 2000 08:41:15 PM new
I was just in Ebay's list of what is not allowed and Nazi items are on the list. Guess it has been a recent addition to what is not allowed.
posted on November 23, 2000 08:48:11 PM new
I just went back to Ebay to make sure I wasn't mistaken and I am. Nazi items are in the questionalbe column. Sorry. They should not be allowed at all as far as I am concerned.
posted on November 23, 2000 09:06:08 PM newpaws4God,
I agree 100%. While this is America and we have the freedom to say what we choose, eBay is a business that is able to set its own guidlines and the selling of Nazi memorabilia or any item that promotes hate should be banned.
posted on November 23, 2000 10:03:16 PM new
I am Jewish, and I could care less if Nazi memorabilia is offered for sale on eBay. It's not that I appreciate it being offered but...
Keep in mind that eBay has often shown a rather questionable PC attitude. Porn is alright, the 2nd Amendment is not, lawfully purchased property is ok depending on whether the manufacturer chooses to practice restraint of trade, and so on. eBay hasn't quite gotten a grasp on the interests of either its sellers or buyers.
posted on November 23, 2000 10:20:22 PM new
Update: Ebay HAS allowed one auction by Mitnick's dad, for a ham radio Mitnick owned. I fervently hope the auction is allowed to play itself out fully.
What I found quite interesting is the info given in the description spot of the auction. In one short paragraph are a veritable cornucopia of emotional evocateurs.
An AW search didn't turn up the anything but the ID card for me ... no cell phone, etc. So I was wondering if it was the card itself (and its origin) that made it a turn-down for ebay.
As a final note, it kinda p's me off that two books ABOUT Mitnick by other sellers are okay for auction. Mebbe I'm naive, but I feel the guy has done his time and should be left to live a life. After all, Nixon sure didn't get made to live his life like a criminal ...
posted on November 24, 2000 12:44:13 AM new
Attention to all who are disturbed:
"
Jan. 21 [2000]— Kevin Mitnick, arguably the most notorious computer
hacker in the world, walked out of the federal prison in Lompoc,
Calif., on Friday after nearly five years behind bars. Under the
terms of his probation, computers, cellular phones and virtually
any other form of new communication technology will be
off-limits to him for the next three years."
posted on November 24, 2000 04:25:47 AM new
I can sleep more easily tonight knowing that an ebay competitor in contact with the family of a convicted criminal is working hard to set a higher moral standard for ebay.
posted on November 24, 2000 04:50:35 AM new
Several months ago, eBay came under attack and was criticized by the Simon Wiesenthal Center over the listings of Nazi Memorabilia.
**********
The Simon Wiesenthal Center is an international center for Holocaust remembrance, the defense of human rights, and the Jewish people.
The Simon Wiesenthal Center has urged several Internet Auction sites to reevaluate their policy of selling Nazi memorabilia online. Currently, eBay is making available assorted Nazi-related items, including swastikas, SS badges, Uniforms, and other related Nazi Militaria.
"Is it really necessary for On-Line Auctions to market items which glorify the horrors of Nazi Germany?," said Rabbi Abraham Cooper, associate dean of the Wiesenthal Center.
For more information, contact the Wiesenthal Center's Public Relations department, (310) 553-9036.
**********
First, let me clarify that I am not supporting nor attacking any particular ethnic or military group. I do realize that certain items that are posted for auction is bound to offend someone.
After reading a large number of threads on the AW board, which states that eBay, has closed down Auctions for violations of their user agreements, or is quick to enforce their policies on users, why are they not enforcing their posted policy pertaining to the 50 year old rule?
**********
"eBay recognizes that some older relics of organizations that promoted hate, violence or racial intolerance are legitimate collectible items that serve as a reminder of past injustices or horrors. Obviously, the past cannot be erased, and such relics can serve as important reminders and educational tools in a community that can learn from the past. Therefore, relics of groups such as the KKK or Nazi Germany may be listed on eBay, provided that they are at least 50 years old, and the listing is not used as a platform to glorify or promote the organization or its values. Listings of such items that are not 50 years old will be removed. Sellers must state the approximate age of the item within the description".
"eBay has always exercised judgment in allowing or disallowing certain listings in the best interest of the community. Therefore, eBay will judiciously disallow listings or items that promote hatred, violence, or racial intolerance, including items that promote organizations (such as the KKK, Nazis, neo-Nazis, Skinheads, Aryan Nation) with such views. eBay will review listings that are brought to its attention by the community, and will look at the entire listing to determine whether it falls within this rule".
"Fundamentally, though, eBay is a community, and members of a community must respect each other as human beings. Listings that promote hate, violence or racial intolerance (or organizations dedicated to such notions) have no place in a true community --"
"Therefore, relics of groups such as the KKK or Nazi Germany may be listed on eBay, provided that they are at least 50 years old…"
**********
A large number Auctions which list Nazi related items are "copies" that are not "50 years old."
After coming under attack from the Simon Wiesenthal Center, eBay came out with their 50 year old policy.
I went to the collectibles category, and then to the Militaria sub category. I entered the words "Copy", "Repro", and "Reproduction" into the search engine which displayed a very large number of reproduction and or copy Nazi related Militaria which is not at least 50 years old.
It appears that eBay paid "Lip Service" to the Simon Wiesenthal Center and eBays membership base, as they do not enforce their posted policy. As you can see, the Militaria sub category normally has a very large number of daily auctions, which averages to 46000 items per 24-hour period.
The value of the incoming funds from the "copies, reproductions, and fakes" appears to supercede eBays posted policies.
eBay keeps one eye open, and the other closed. Nazi Auctions will be closed (Maybe?)only if reported by its user base.
Due to the recent French ruling, some Militaria buyers and sellers have been moving their auctions over to:
posted on November 24, 2000 05:13:44 AM new
I can see both sides of this.
The guiding principle is probably that one should not be able to turn a profit from criminal acts. For example if someone sold movie rights to their crime the courts would probably take them and apply them to the victem.
However eBay seems to have decided in cases like this that they will do away with all that complicated legal action and just decide for the court what should happen. Don't tell me about "it is their auction and they can do what they want" because it is a public accomadation. If I had a restaurant and served the public I have to have a valid reason to turn people away or face legal consequences.
The reason people are upset about this man's conviction is that it was conducted in a hysteria that is similar to some of the child
abuse cases we have seen. A trend that is turning our legal system into a fascist tool
of persecution like the McCarthy era.
The reality is that this fellow is GUILTY of a crime but a rational exaimination of it would conclude that it is about the same level as spray painting graffiti.
They used the common tactic of making many charges in the shotgun style hoping some of them would stick. Some of the charges looked silly in the trial. The one set of standards
the phone company claimed he stole which they said was worth millions of dollars they then admitted was available to the public in a publication they sold for about $11.00
That was the honesty level of the whole thing. A farce.
All this man knows is IT and he can't touch anything electronic that would provide employment. Why did they let him go? What is the social value of releasing prisoners and then telling them they can not support themselves? Do you see them releasing white collar criminals and saying you can never manage again? If he were not a cult hero I suppose he could flip burgers or go to soup kitchens, but this seems stupidly vendictive to me and
I am NOT a fan of his. He is a petty little prick who is intelligent but unsocialized. But there should be some honesty and
sense of proportion in criminal prosecution.
[ edited by macandjan on Nov 24, 2000 05:19 AM ]
posted on November 24, 2000 05:48:05 AM new
Mitnick cut a deal with the government a year and a half ago and was released. As part of the deal, any proceeds from possible sale of his story must be turned over to victims for a seven year period.
He's also barred from using computers or cell phones for three years.
I don't know how this agreement might affect sales of such items as Mitnick's first computer or Mitnick's cell phone or prison ID card. I haven't read the whole thing.
But considering the nature of the items and the agreement, I'm not surprised that they were pulled.
posted on November 24, 2000 06:07:44 AM new
I AGREE with the person who said the morality and value system of eBay is clear when they graciously allow PORN but band 2ND AMMENDMENT items including many basically harmless knives. (harmless meaning you can purchase similar items on the west coast at Wal-Mart).
This seems typical of much of the West Coast mentality - Porn is fine, AIDS is okay, Nazi memorabilia ok, but Constitutionally guaranteed items are forbidden!
BUT realize, eBay treats its sellers like the Gestapo treated the Jews!
posted on November 24, 2000 06:43:43 AM new
macandjan-comparing computer hackers to grafitti artists is absurd. hackers can and have cost innocent people millions of dollars in lost revenue and security expenses(yes, i know that grafitti has a cost). are you trying to test your first amendment rights with your language in your post? you have many other valid points, however. but, once again, all of you guys are making a big mistake getting into religious and political issues on these boards. in this case, it is almost impossible to discuss censorship without getting into the specifics of the entire nazi/hate crimes issue. the inflammatory nature of this subject makes it inappropriate for an AW board.
posted on November 24, 2000 07:27:23 AM new
The subject is trade, Stusi. I think ethics, laws, and government regulations are all very valid points of discussion in this connection.
posted on November 24, 2000 08:06:06 AM new
Yes I am very willing to compare a graffiti artist to hacker. They CAN cause millions of dollars worth of damage if they choose to, but the fact is that he did NOT. Vandals can also cause similar damage if they go beyond graffiti and trash a building. But we recognize a difference between someone who sprays a slogan on a brick wall and someone who burns down the high school. With hackers it seems there is no proportional response.
If some one would pull a prank by going into a local bank and going through all the locks into the vault and left a note there for the bank that says - Your security really sucks - you would charge them with trespass at least but if they did not take any money with them you would not charge them with theft just because they COULD have. It is frightening to see the government acting against people on the basis of what they might do before any crime has occured.
If that is testing my First Amendment rights
well perhaps they need testing from time to time because I did not advocate anywhere there doing anything criminal - or even excusing his criminal act. I just said punishment should be proportional to the crime.
This is a valid point of discussion for this forum because frankly this is the only area of my life where these questions of our rights and social responsibilities have a daily impact.
I very rarely have any contact with the police or other government authorities because I keep my nose clean and avoid conflict. If eBay goes beyond being an auction house and acts on the government(s)
behalf to tell me what I can sell or buy
then whether it is a legal issue or a social issue it matters very much to me.
[ edited by macandjan on Nov 24, 2000 08:11 AM ]
posted on November 24, 2000 08:31:33 AM new
stockticker- ethics, laws and government regs all make for a very interesting dialogue. the problem is that when people bring up the nazis the discussion gets into religion. discussing religion and/or politics often brings out the worst in people and if you look at some recent posts you will see that some of them were getting rather emotional. if the above could be discussed exclusively in the context of auctions without getting into religion or politics there would not be a problem.
