stockticker
|
posted on November 24, 2000 08:38:28 AM
Stusi: You obviously haven't been reading AW very long. Trust me, if the moderators were to ban talk about any subject that might become emotional, there were very few threads on the messageboard!
If a thread topic distresses you, why on earth are your reading it?
Irene
|
reamond
|
posted on November 24, 2000 09:17:55 AM
Banning items that are not inheirently dangerous is wrong.
There are many Arab groups that would oppose selling Jewish collectables. Many American Indian groups would see selling Indian atrifacts as wrong [ some of which are obviously grave goods]. Where are all these Egyptian artifacts coming from - have they been exported legally ?
If Mitnick's items are banned then eBay should also ban items regarding Richard Nixon.
Let the market decide.
eBay continues to peirce the veil of merely being a "venue" each time it removes items and exercises selective enforcement.
|
mrpotatoheadd
|
posted on November 24, 2000 09:29:31 AM
Suppose everybody around the world who is currently able to access eBay submitted a list of items they thought should be banned, and eBay removed them all.
Would that be a good idea?
How many items do you think would be left?
How would you feel about having the items you buy or sell banned because somebody else didn't like them?
|
amalgamated2000
|
posted on November 24, 2000 09:37:27 AM
Does anyone know specifically WHY the Mitnick items were pulled? I gotta think that Ebay has some reason for it. For example, I imagine there are laws against selling prison ID cards.
In any case, I expect we will see major Ebay outages soon, thanks to Mitnick's friends.
This will be VERY bad. The Ham auction now says that Kevin will be hosting a talk show soon talking about Ebay's unfair practices. This is really going to stir up the hacker community.
Ebay has really messed with the wrong people this time, and I suspect that we will all pay for it.
|
bhearsch
|
posted on November 24, 2000 10:18:33 AM
I don't find anything disturbing about eBay not allowing the sale of Mitnick's prison ID. I think it falls under one of two categories of eBay's banned items: either GOVERNMENT IDS AND LICENSES or POLICE-RELATED ITEMS. http://pages.ebay.aol.com/help/community/png-items.html. Also, I believe this issue has something to do with making a profit from a criminal act. I remember reading about this but can't recall where I saw it now.
What I do find disturbing is the thought that eBay should ban anything having to do with the Nazi regime during the second World War. This is a very significant part of our World's history and the fact that it was and is distasteful doesn't change the fact that it exists. You simply cannot allow the few to control the many and those that don't want to see Nazi memorabilia should just not look at it!!
I live in the US and Nazi items aren't banned here and I believe eBay is a US company so why on earth should they ban anything that isn't illegal in this country? They use filters to block relevant illegal material pertaining to other Countries and that should be all that's required. US citizens shouldn't be barred from seeing items that are legal here just because there are some folks who find these objects offensive. Hell, I find some of them offensive but I'm very opposed to the process of the willy, nilly banning of anything just because it's expedient.
I truly don't believe an object, in and of itself, is Evil. The people and ideas behind the object are Evil and the only effective way to arm ourselves to fight this Evil is through knowlege which comes from study and reflection. IMO, wiping it away is not productive.
There is no way to win in this "Nazi" issue and I've tried to avoided these discussons but do we really want eBay to ban more stuff? Maybe we should be careful what we ask for.
Blanche
|
amalgamated2000
|
posted on November 24, 2000 10:36:41 AM
I don't find anything disturbing about eBay not allowing the sale of Mitnick's prison ID.
OK, but what about Kevin's first computer?? How can they possilby justify this? You can't sell anything that ever belonged to anyone who was ever convicted of any crime? (Unless it's grisly mass murder, cause they have no problem with art by Manson or John Wayne Gacy.)
I really wouldn't be surprised if hackers make Ebay virtually inoperable until Christmas.
|
bhearsch
|
posted on November 24, 2000 10:47:32 AM
Hi amalgamated2000. I don't know why eBay banned his computer. Are you sure they did? If so, this may help to illuminate the problem with bannings in regard to the "willie, nillie" approach which eBay is famous for. They may have used the flawed reasoning that if one of Mitnick's items is banned then they should do them all. 
I'm afraid that I don't have enough information yet to determine why the computer auction wasn't allowed but it may be related to poor judgement on one of the eBay staff members. Hey, THAT'S been known to happen!!
Blanche
|
bhearsch
|
posted on November 24, 2000 10:54:32 AM
I just did a bit of research and discovered that Mitnick's computer wasn't banned from eBay but, in fact, was sold on eBay. It appears that the prison ID was the only item that eBay banned. http://www.kevinmitnick.com/ It looks like dutchbid has been blowing some smoke up our ass!!
Blanche
[ edited by bhearsch on Nov 24, 2000 10:57 AM ]
|
macandjan
|
posted on November 24, 2000 11:11:09 AM
There could easy be a problem with eBay even if Mitnick doesn't encourage it. When I was in High School I had a cousin who was always "looking out for me" even when I did not want it. Half the time I ended up dragging this nut case off the person who got in my face. He could turn a smart remark across the lunch line into a riot in about 10 seconds.
Too many people out there are ready to settle your battles for you.
Mitnick might get more support than he wants.
We could ask the Talaban what they would ban and that would remove about half of the items on eBay. They recently interrupted a soccor game with Pakistan and shaved the heads of the players which is a ritual humiliation there and sent them home because they wore shorts out on the field. Short pants or shirts are banned. Women can show their eyes.
That is nice to let them see where they are going.
Any graphic design that is not geometric or abstarct is idolatry so no carving /florals/ portraits or other pictures or deciration on anything. No items from other religions like a bible. Most entertainment items would go.
Them we could ask Singapore where all web traffic already has to pass through their servers first to filter political content.
|
spazmodeus
|
posted on November 24, 2000 12:47:35 PM
BUT realize, eBay treats its sellers like the Gestapo treated the Jews!
Think before you write.
|
dutchbid
|
posted on November 24, 2000 01:18:50 PM
bhearsch (Blanche),
There has been no smoke blowing. The info was gathered from an article in theregister.com where Kevin Poulas writes:
"On Monday, on-line auction house eBay cancelled an offering of Mitnick's official federal Bureau of Prisons inmate I.D. card, ending a flow of authentic Mitnick merchandise put up by his father on behalf of the legendary hacker, who is himself barred from using computers, and of course accessing the Web, under the terms of his supervised release.
DutchBid
|
stusi
|
posted on November 24, 2000 01:58:44 PM
stockticker/irene- you are missing the point! i am not suggesting that the moderators stop this discussion. it is still reasonably civil. i am only suggesting that if the discussion gets away from strictly auction-related matters and gets into strictly religious or political matters that it has no place on this board. i know from experience that this particular topic evokes deeper emotion more quickly than possibly any other. that knowledge has nothing to do with AW per se. rather than suggest that i not read this thread because you think it distresses me(which it doesn't-yet) might i suggest that if it continues to stray from auction issues that you take the discussion elsewhere.
|
isworeiwouldneverdothis
|
posted on November 24, 2000 02:07:07 PM
"… ending a flow of authentic Mitnick merchandise put up [b][i] by his father on
behalf of the legendary hacker,…[/b][/i]"
So if Mitnick's dad put those items up for sale on behalf of Mitnick, te implication is that Mitnick will be the one benefitting from the sale. Ebay forbids such a sale:
"Further, eBay will remove any listing and suspend the users involved where it appears that a person convicted of a violent felony is attempting to use eBay (directly or through another person) to benefit financially from his or her criminal notoriety."
He is lucky any of his stuff got to auction.
Edited to give thanks to Glenda for steering me in the right direction.
[ edited by isworeiwouldneverdothis on Nov 24, 2000 02:39 PM ]
|
bhearsch
|
posted on November 24, 2000 02:11:37 PM
dutchbid, I'm not sure about the point of this article since the only item that was banned from eBay according to Mitnick's homepage and this article itself was the prison ID. I believe there was sufficient reason to not allow this to be auctioned per eBay's rules (see my above post of rules) and I also noticed that the ID was thought to have been obtained illegally because Mitnick smuggled it out instead of turning it in when he was released.
The auctions for his first computer and his cell phone were allowed on eBay and were SOLD on eBay so I'm somewhat confused by the article. It really doesn't state that eBay banned any other Mitnick items.
This is a quote from the SecurityFocus news article written by Kevin Poulsen:
QUOTE
"In an email message to Mitnick's father, an eBay customer service representative claimed the company stopped the auction under its policy prohibiting sellers convicted of a "violent felony" to profit from their notoriety.
Mitnick plead guilty to a number of felonies last year in connection with a string of electronic intrusions into software and cell phone companies in the mid-90's-but none of the crimes were violent in any usual sense of the word.
Perhaps realizing this, a later message from a different representative claimed eBay canceled the auction based on a policy against selling federal I.D. cards. The company also cited a policy that bars any sale of stolen property.
In fact, Mitnick's breathless sales pitch ("act now and own a piece of history" ) included the claim that the hacker had to smuggle the I.D. card out of prison upon his release. “The item, as it was described, was smuggled out of a federal penitentiary,” says eBay spokesperson Kevin Purglove. “Therefore, one could question whether or not the one selling it is the rightful owner of the merchandise.”
END QUOTE
http://www.securityfocus.com/templates/article.html?id=117
BTW, Mitnick bragged about stealing the prison ID on his homepage and then recanted and said he didn't steal it after the auction was shut down. Either way, it wasn't his to sell since it belongs to the Bureau Of Prisons. I'm still seeing smoke but it's starting to clear.
Blanche
[ edited by bhearsch on Nov 24, 2000 02:15 PM ]
|
docpjw
|
posted on November 24, 2000 02:14:06 PM
iswore..... DITTO .....
|
dutchbid
|
posted on November 24, 2000 02:14:12 PM
isworeiwouldneverdothis,
I am not defending his or any other hackers action, but if you re-read your post you will see that it states "convicted of a violent felony". I do not see any violence involved in any of Kevin Mitnick's charges. Maybe eBay needs to reword their rules?
DutchBid
|
bhearsch
|
posted on November 24, 2000 02:18:18 PM
They did reword their reason for stopping the auction.
QUOTE
"Perhaps realizing this, a later message from a different representative claimed eBay canceled the auction based on a policy against selling federal I.D. cards. The company also cited a policy that bars any sale of stolen property."
END QUOTE
Blanche
|
dutchbid
|
posted on November 24, 2000 02:22:48 PM
bhearsch,
It's not me that's smoking, really! Some articles are misleading it seems. I read another (that I have been trying to find again) that also stated that all auctions were vamoosed by ebay.
The same article that you quoted from also states, Mitnick now says there was no smuggling involved, and admits he included the dramatic line to "make it more exciting."
I guess we could throw this back and forth all day long, but let's just end it here and say that it was an interesting topic to debate
All in favor say "I"
|
isworeiwouldneverdothis
|
posted on November 24, 2000 02:24:09 PM
Possibly they need to reword it--I wonder what the California State law is regarding making such a profit.
|
bhearsch
|
posted on November 24, 2000 02:30:45 PM
dutchbid, I. 
Blanche
|
macandjan
|
posted on November 24, 2000 02:40:22 PM
Interesting - They did not stop to think if they wanted to bar profit from a non-violent felon. You'd almost think eBay has the same guy part time who writes daily revisions for paypal after they find all the new things they did not cover.
Mitnick really sounds like one of those little creeps that require you to sift through his statements carefully to see if he fell out of character for a moment and told the truth.
I would love to see his TOS if he lists later. You can usually spot those fellows and would be better off throwing your money in the air downtown and have the fun of watching the people chase it.
|
isworeiwouldneverdothis
|
posted on November 25, 2000 04:36:15 AM
I find it quite interesting that Kevin Mitnick's id card is NOW up for auction at dutchbid.com. Nice going. Real smooth.
|
Damariscotta
|
posted on November 25, 2000 05:02:32 AM
This thread was not started for the sake of freedom and democracy! With the lack of bidding action at that site they need to do something to generate interest. Offering material from a convicted felon and apparently self-admitted liar will help build bidder confidence in their site.
Maybe they can get the fake Van Gogh from Old and Sold as well.
|
macandjan
|
posted on November 25, 2000 05:13:54 AM
Send them all the sports stuff with "shaky" signatures.
|
mjh2
|
posted on November 25, 2000 05:33:59 AM
EBay is a monopoly and can do whatever they want with their site and there is not much that you can do about it.
|
stusi
|
posted on November 25, 2000 06:28:45 AM
dutchbid-so after openly soliciting business for your auction site on this board, you apparently have succeeded in getting a listing for a kevin mitnick prison id for your website. this is a violation of the terms of AW and you should be banned from this site. are you listening moderators? the original post was edited, read the subsequent posts. would this be a violation of your rights, dutchbid?
|
snowydays
|
posted on November 25, 2000 07:56:13 AM
I had to come out of lurking to say that any topic that wants to be discussed here should be, and if you are offended by a topic then don't read it. It is also not up to individual posters to decide what the rest of the community wants to discuss. I am not real familiar with the Guidelines here, but since any commercial endoresements were edited out there is hardly any reason to suspend the person who opened this thread. For you to be telling the Moderators that this person should be suspended is ridiculous.
|
joice
|
posted on November 25, 2000 08:16:51 AM
Hello Everyone,
If you have issues relating to Moderation as it relates to the CGs, please open a thread in the Moderator's Corner.
Joice
Moderator.
|
bhearsch
|
posted on November 25, 2000 09:47:30 AM
Well, I guess the smoke isn't clearing!!
macandjan, if we send them all of the sports items with "iffy" signatures there wouldn't be many left on eBay.
Blanche
|
stusi
|
posted on November 25, 2000 10:53:31 AM
snowydays- since when is it appropriate to discuss any topic here on the ebay outlook board? this is an auction site, not an AOL chatline. although some of the recent topics are interesting, this is just not the right place for them. regarding the poster who blatantly told the world and mitnick's father about his/her auction site and his interest in the id, if someone had not first raised the issue it would not have been edited. that poster now has that item on their site. if everyone started advertising their sites, etc., got listings and then edited their posts to cover their butts this board would be filled with free advertising. so between self-promotion and rantings about non-auction issues this would become a site that those of us who have substantial $ invested in online auctions would no longer rely on for straight auction issue awareness.
|
