posted on April 15, 2006 04:55:05 PM
Oh please Linda -it was a 4 minute interview with the man and you have been busted for blatantly misrepresenting what the man said. Now you are going to try to say that Fox left out the parts that you remember, parts that would by the way absolutely contridict what he said in the four minutes that has been uploaded?
You know, I have always know you were a dogmatic single minded supporter, but I honestly never believed that you would flat out make things up.
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Never ask what sort of computer a guy drives. If he's a Mac user, he'll tell you. If he's not, why embarrass him? - Tom Clancy
posted on April 15, 2006 04:55:25 PM
here, helen, see if you can get your panties all in a bunch over this
Generals defend Rumsfeld
By Rowan Scarborough
THE WASHINGTON TIMES
April 15, 2006
Several retired generals who worked with Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld, including a former chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, yesterday decried calls for the secretary's resignation from other retired officers.
President Bush repeated his support for his point man in the war against terrorists.
"I think what we see happening with retired general officers is bad for the military, bad for civil-military relations and bad for the country," retired Air Force Gen. Richard B. Myers, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs under Mr. Bush, said in an interview with The Washington Times. ****He said he would elaborate his views in an op-ed essay****.
"I'm hurt," said retired Marine Corps Lt. Gen. Michael P. DeLong, who was deputy commander of U.S. Central Command during the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq, and briefed Mr. Rumsfeld at the Pentagon.
"When we have an administration that is currently at war, with a secretary of defense that has the confidence of the president and basically has done well -- no matter what grade you put on there, he has done well -- to call for his resignation right now is not good for the country," he said.
The White House this week expressed continued support for Mr. Rumsfeld, and Mr. Bush, responding to the continued resignation calls, reiterated his support.
"I have seen firsthand how Don relies upon our military commanders in the field and at the Pentagon to make decisions about how best to complete these missions," Mr. Bush said in a three-paragraph statement yesterday.
"Secretary Rumsfeld's energetic and steady leadership is exactly what is needed at this critical period. He has my full support and deepest appreciation."
The president, who has previously declined Mr. Rumsfeld's offers to step down over the Abu Ghraib prison episode, said he had spoken with Mr. Rumsfeld earlier in the day and "I reiterated my strong support for his leadership during this historic and challenging time for our nation."
In an interview taped Thursday for the Arab-language Al Arabiya TV station, Mr. Rumsfeld said he has no plans to resign.
"The fact that two or three or four retired people have different views, I respect their views," he said, "but obviously out of thousands and thousands of admirals and generals, if every time two or three people disagreed, we changed the secretary of defense of the United States, it would be like a merry-go-round around here."
Six former generals have, one at a time, called on Mr. Rumsfeld to resign. The generals, two of the Marine Corps and four of the Army, cited "poor war planning" for Iraq after Saddam Hussein was deposed, insufficient ground troops and failure to anticipate the infiltration of Iraq by al Qaeda fighters that set off a fierce pro-Saddam insurgency. They accused Mr. Rumsfeld of intimidating senior officers and "meddling" in war planning.
"I believe we need a fresh start in the Pentagon," retired Maj. Gen. John Batiste, who commanded the Army's 1st Infantry Division in Iraq in 2004 and 2005, told CNN cable network. "We need a leader who understands teamwork, a leader who knows how to build teams, a leader that does it without intimidation. You know, it speaks volumes that guys like me are speaking out."
Page 1 ^^^^
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Mr. Rumsfeld's staff scoffed at the accusations of intimidation and meddling. Several retired senior officers also say the calls from the six generals were inspired by Mr. Rumsfeld's far-reaching transformation of their services and his refusal to increase active forces by a large number.
The officers defending Mr. Rumsfeld say the complaints are an institutional battle between the generals, who think Mr. Rumsfeld is damaging the Army, and the defense secretary, who thinks he is better organizing it for post-Cold War 21st-century threats.
Mr. Bush referred to that friction when he said, "I asked Don to transform the largest department in our government. That kind of change is hard."
Officers also say general officers have a choice while on active duty: They can follows orders or resign in protests. But they say it is a troubling precedent when retired generals attempt to dictate who should be the military's civilian leader.
Retired Gen. John Keane, former Army vice chief of staff under Mr. Rumsfeld, said the secretary involved himself in war planning "just like other strong secretaries of defense."
"Generals bring forward their campaign plans, and the civilian leaders apply their judgments," he said. "As a result of that, those plans are changed. The secretary has done the same thing as pertains to our plans for invading Afghanistan and Iraq. In my view, this is healthy and in my view this collaboration-making is healthy and it serves the nation well."
Gen. DeLong said Mr. Rumsfeld often deferred to Gen. Tommy Franks on war planning issues.
"He would go with Franks' call even though he may not have been wholly on board because Franks was the guy with the experience," he said.
Gen. DeLong acknowledged that he, his commander, Gen. Franks, Mr. Rumsfeld and others made mistakes in anticipating what would happen in Iraq. They should not have disbanded all Ba'ath Party members loyal to Saddam, for example.
"This after-the-fact stuff is really easy to do," he said. "We made some mistakes. Everybody had a part of that. Rumsfeld helped fix it."
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Like I said....arm-chair quarterback AND difference of opinion WAY back then.....is normal....but the one in CHARGE makes the final decision.
THAT is what the others are so upset about.
So watch for Myer's op-ed piece. Maybe he'll repeat what YOU fenix AND helen WEREN'T watching...but I was.
[ edited by Linda_K on Apr 15, 2006 05:08 PM ]
posted on April 15, 2006 05:01:27 PMI asked Bear if he thought that it was reasonable to expect active generals to publicly question the abilities of their leader. NOtice that I have sasked it twice and that he has pointedly avoided answeriong that one.
I'm not avoiding the question. I had a 30' oak tree to cut down & haul off. Kinda hard to run a chainsaw & type at the same time.
Fenix, In the active military one does NOT PUBLICLY question his superiors. If you have a problem there are very tactful ways to address the issue but NEVER in public.
"“More Iraqis think things are going well in Iraq than Americans do. I guess they don’t get the New York Times over there.”—Jay Leno".
posted on April 15, 2006 05:06:35 PM
?New article with the same info but despite all of your selective bolding, nothing that supports your claims regarding the generals that have spoken out against Rumsfeld.
You claimed that Myers stated reasons that each of them would speak out against Runsfield. You later said that his inmplication was that they had personal issues with him.
Unless you have something that supports that claim, you are probably better off just walking away from this one rather than continuing to dig the hole.
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Never ask what sort of computer a guy drives. If he's a Mac user, he'll tell you. If he's not, why embarrass him? - Tom Clancy
posted on April 15, 2006 05:17:09 PM
LOL - on the typing and chain saw action Bear Sounds like you are going to have some sore arms in the morning.
Of course you know I do realize that active members would never speak out publicly. I just wanted someone to actually aknowledge that.
Why is it though that once you leave the military, your opinions are now suddenly no longer valid?
These are not "arm chair quarterbacks" as Linda has been referring to them (so much for repect). They are men that were in the mix, they kept their mouths shut and did their jobs when that was expected of them and now that they are retired and are able to speak their minds and express their opinions of their leadership, they are being denegraded by those that don't like what they are saying.
The only people that really know when things are going wrong are "the guys in the trenches" but if they are not allowed to say so when they are in the trenches, and nothing that they say is valid once they leave the trenches, then how are we ever supposed to know what is really going on?
~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~
Never ask what sort of computer a guy drives. If he's a Mac user, he'll tell you. If he's not, why embarrass him? - Tom Clancy
posted on April 15, 2006 05:17:23 PM
Oh the second pit bull rejoins the first. Can't ever let anything go...you KNOW IT ALL....everything. You're never mistaken...never wrong. But you have no control over this situation and that pisses you off.
I'm still waiting for ONE of you THREE to post the transcript.
You know as well as I do that this Gen. is often on Fox News. I want to see the transcript from last night, of ALL that way said. That's NOT unreasonable. And the profe has TWO pit bulls on his side who should be able to help him find it.
It was NOT a 4 minute interview. It was late at night...and there was that guy sitting in for Brit Hume and the Gen ONLY...discussing many of these issues. NOT for just four minutes....it ran a couple of segments...like I said I say for 20 - 30 minutes. SHOW a TRANSCRIPT like one that would on CNN.
Since neither you NOR helen claim to have SEEN it....I find it extremely FUNNY that you'd be telling ME what I saw.
But that's you liberal pit bull ladies....can't EVER be wrong/incorrect about anything. Nope....never...not a chance. Heck the profe and I could have seen two DIFFERENT interviews for all I know.
That's why I asked to see the transcript - so I could point out where I got it from. I didn't get this from any video.
posted on April 15, 2006 05:21:38 PM
What part can't you 'get' that those defending him were ALSO in the trenches.
So easy to take a handful who say what YOU want to hear...what you've believed since this war began....and totally ignore those who were ALSO there and see what a GREAT leader he is.
So hard for you to acknowledge that there are ALWAYS military generals/commanders who disagree with SOMETHING a CIC does. Heck same thing happened during the clinton administration when they were RETIRING IN DROVES rather than serve under him.
posted on April 15, 2006 05:33:11 PM
THIS IS WHY I CALL HER LIAR_K. LOL
I must admit the old bag gives me lots of laughs. Some people spend a lot of time with the old bag they must enjoy seeing the old bag LIAR_K making a fool of herself.
"I DON'T GIVE THEM HELL I JUST TELL THEM THE TRUTH AND THEY THINK ITS HELL." HARRY TRUMAN
posted on April 15, 2006 05:35:58 PM
Okay...peepa...YOU find the transcript then. PROVE me a liar.
---------
I'll be back in a short while to see if any of you FOUR can find the transcript.
Meanwhile....keep reading this over and over and over again...until it sinks in. Because it's basically what Gen. Myers was saying last night....they're speaking out because they had disagreements with Rumsfeld on POLICY.....which THEY don't make...he does.
"The officers defending Mr. Rumsfeld say ***the complaints are an institutional battle between the generals, who think Mr. Rumsfeld is damaging the Army***, and ***the defense secretary, who thinks he is better organizing it for post-Cold War 21st-century threats**."
They didn't like his 'style'. TOO BAD.
[ edited by Linda_K on Apr 15, 2006 05:40 PM ]
posted on April 15, 2006 05:37:13 PM
Linda - have you watched the segment we are referring to? Yes, he did continue to speak to the general for more than 4 minutes but they only addressed the Rumsfield situation for 4 minuts, they then went on to the next segment which was events on Iran. Now unless you are telling me that on Tuesday they discussed developments regarding Iran that were announced yesterday, we are talking about the same interview.
Let it go. You got caught. You misrepresented what the man said and you were unlucky enough that the actual statements would be the featured interview on the website today.
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Never ask what sort of computer a guy drives. If he's a Mac user, he'll tell you. If he's not, why embarrass him? - Tom Clancy
[ edited by fenix03 on Apr 15, 2006 05:38 PM ]
posted on April 15, 2006 06:41:10 PM
Linda - please show me my lie.
You see Linda - everyone else here that is not inhibited by the limitation of Web TV is able to see watch the video from FoxNews. they are able to see the General right there in living color and watch his lips move as he says that he has the utmost respect for their intellect and military abilities and does not understand why they said what they said.
They can use their own ears to note the complete absence, not just of the things that you said he stated, but the absence of the implications you claim he made.
They can hear that even as he expressed his disagreement with their decision to make the statements that they made that he spoke of them with a great deal of respect.
I know that denying you the ability to attempt to obfuscate his statements with selective bolding eats away at you but attempting to somehow turn this against me and say that I lied really makes you look pathetic.
Like I said, you should have just let it go. You just couldn't resist digging yourself in a little deeper could you?
Don't you get it Linda... we don't need a transcript of the interview... we have actual VIDEO from the source.
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Never ask what sort of computer a guy drives. If he's a Mac user, he'll tell you. If he's not, why embarrass him? - Tom Clancy
[ edited by fenix03 on Apr 15, 2006 08:18 PM ]
posted on April 15, 2006 07:33:46 PM
Peeps said: must admit the old bag gives me lots of laughs. Some people spend a lot of time with the old bag they must enjoy seeing the old bag LIAR_K making a fool of herself.
That is what I think about you big when I see the way you post. Now you must be talking about yourself when you talk about some people spend a lot of time with Linda as you seem to post something everytime she speaks.
Evidently you can't get it through that thick skull that posting in caps is SHOUTING and I don't think anyone in here is deaf. Just how old are you? Do you understand anything that is said to you.
You didn't answer the question yet bigpeepa. I will repeat it again. Show me where Linda has lied. Facts please, that is the only way you can redeem yourself. Please no helpers as he is a ?grown man.
posted on April 15, 2006 08:16:52 PM
Libra63,
Truth is your old bag girlfriend liar_k got caught in yet another one of her many untrue statements. Nothing more or nothing less.
Libra63,you have forgotten and need to remember I could not care less about what DUMBO BUSH supporters think of me. Anyone that still supports DUMBO BUSH AND HIS GANG OF THIEVES after what they have done to the middle and working class American is ANTI-AMERICAN in my book.
"I DON'T GIVE THEM HELL I JUST TELL THEM THE TRUTH AND THEY THINK IT HELL." HARRY TRUMAN
posted on April 15, 2006 08:21:03 PM
Bear - What is don't get is, why is it automatically assumed to be sour grapes? When someone highly qualified and experienced says someone may have exceened their usefullness why is it automatically written off as sour grapes? They have nothing to gain by coming out which that type of statement and they certainly know that they will be raked over the coals for doing so so wouldn't you have to wonder is maybe there is not at least some credence that should be given to their statement? And when that opinion is echoed by other highly qualified and experienced people, don't you think that maybe that collectivbe opinion should be given some consideration?
I guess it just disturbs me that the same people that say that we should respect the uniform and respect the view of those with the experience are so quick to attempt to discredit those same men as soon as they say something that they don't agree with.
~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~
Never ask what sort of computer a guy drives. If he's a Mac user, he'll tell you. If he's not, why embarrass him? - Tom Clancy
posted on April 15, 2006 09:26:06 PM
Libra63,
Truth is your old bag girlfriend liar_k got caught in yet another one of her many untrue statements. Nothing more or nothing less.
Show me proof. Not what someone posted in this venue but cold hard truth. BTW Linda is a lot younger and smarter than you. Get used to it.
Obviously you do care otherwise you would close the door on the RT and not return.
Can't wait to spew your venom about Bush. Remember he will be around for a couple of more years and then you can forget about him. Need I remind you that you and tomwii are the ones who rushed in and patted Rusty on the back with the findings of Doyle. Remember 100% right Rusty. Was that the truth. Nope. Who posted the truth? Linda.
I think fenix you can reverse what your saying and talk about the Commanders that are for Rumsfeld. So the retired ones know more than he does? Maybe they do and maybe they don't so he should be fired because 6 or so Commanders say so. What about the Commanders that are for him. Does that say anything. You would make one heck of a boss.
posted on April 15, 2006 09:26:07 PM
I misspoke about the transcript I guess. I thought sure I saw a link to it. Anyway, it wasn't a 30 minute interview Linda. The whole thing is on the website. I saw it myself on TV Sunday night, and the one on the website is the entire interview. You're really reaching to claim it was anything more than what can be seen online now..
There'll be a transcript eventually. Then we'll see what he did and didn't say, since we can't make you go watch it yourself .
____________________________________________
posted on April 16, 2006 05:26:56 AM
We've heard that "fine job" BS before. Bush appears to have difficulty recognizing the difference between fine jobs and what is in reality a DIASTER.
Piinthesky, Another successful intrusion by NSA? Hmmmmm.....
posted on April 16, 2006 05:46:39 AM
Mivona asks some very good questions.
It makes me wonder just what a neocon would consider to be a person of sufficient gravitas in their critical view of her president? Is there anyone (other than God) would would be considered sufficiently knowledgeable to be preferred over the C-in-C?
I don't get the veneration given to GW... it is hardly as if he is terribly knowledgeable about much at all, as far as I can see. It is not as if he is terribly focussed on his presidential duties - having taken more time off than any other president I have known. It is not as if he was a blinding success at business. So, what is it that makes him so worthy of this unfathomable trust in being able to do the right thing? Because he managed to get greater control over the voting hacks?
It looks to me as if there is a range of career professionals saying that Rumsfeld (and by implication, his boss) are sadly deficient in their abilities to direct the war in Iraq. It looks to me as if they are not necessarily all known to have left-wing bias. It looks to me that Rumsfeld management style of just ignoring the views he doesn't agree with rather than entering into a dialogue or seeking any consensus has pissed off some fairly knowledgeable military men, to the extent that they have now left the military service in order to be able to speak out.
I wonder what would happen if the current military brass in Iraq were able to speak out, without censure or repercussions?
posted on April 16, 2006 08:20:01 AM
It seems as if it didn't matter what the generals thought or what they advised as the president and his little team had made up their minds how things would go when it came to war.
They were so ignorantly stubborn that even when it was shown that they should change some tactics they refused to. 'Stay the course', come hell or high water, no matter how many innocents get killed....... after all, it's not their flesh and blood.
Those that root for such stupidity seem to lol and glorify in seeing the turmoil and death because their flesh and blood isn't at stake either. Their vision stops at the throne of their leader and nothing else matters.
posted on April 16, 2006 11:52:05 AM Bear - What is don't get is, why is it automatically assumed to be sour grapes?
Fenix, can you say "book deal". Isn't controversy the best publicity for future book sales.
And of you look into the past of these generals you will note they were critical of the planning and prosecution of the war from the beginning. As to my way of thinking, they were still thinking of fighting the "cold war" and not a war on terror.
Personally I wish Schwartzkopf had still been in command.
"“More Iraqis think things are going well in Iraq than Americans do. I guess they don’t get the New York Times over there.”—Jay Leno".
posted on April 16, 2006 11:57:11 AM
Hell Bear - at this point I would be happy with Tom Clancy.
(truth be told, he might not be bad at the job... It's not as if he hasn't spent 30 years reseaching military tactics or that he's short on sources in the know)
~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~
Never ask what sort of computer a guy drives. If he's a Mac user, he'll tell you. If he's not, why embarrass him? - Tom Clancy
Sounds like you are going to have some sore arms in the morning.
