posted on November 30, 2000 08:03:29 AM
Well I have posted this before a while back and I still say it is not.
What do the rest of you think.
Case in point.
Recently a dealer decided to retire and offer his stock between 60 and 70 off his retail.
He has been in business for 30 years and has good stock.So I checked prices on ebaY on very similar items.Even with his discount of 70% its still not enough to turn a profit on the items on ebaY.
Another is a rare book page that can be found in limited quantity on ebaY.Less that 5 a month.One of these is coming up for sale in a brick and mortar auction.The price it typically brings at such auctions is double what it bring on ebaY.
I have lots of others I can compare with as well.Does anyone else see this too.
posted on November 30, 2000 08:10:47 AM
Adrian~ I have to agree with you........I truly believe that ebay is the wholesale market, particularly in antiques and what nots. More money can be realized in the real life auction. However, remember you are paying a % comission to the auctioneer. To compare apples to apples I think you need to compare net profit with net profit. Obviously egreed takes their share but it is less than most auction houses.
posted on November 30, 2000 08:18:22 AM
I see eBay as a place to get a reasonable price with quick turnaround. By market prices, do you mean RL auctions, or antique shops / malls ?
True, items in shops tend to be priced a lot higher than they would bring on eBay. On the other hand, the shops and malls I frequent are filled with items that have been sitting on the shelves collecting dust for several years.
Eventually they may sell at that high price, but it's tough to quantify the shelf space they occupied for so long and compare it to eBay prices.
posted on November 30, 2000 08:19:53 AM
IMHO, if the "market" price is what people are willing to pay (not what the seller wants to be paid), then eBay is a true reflection of the "market"--the market of the technological future where "rare" items will truly be rare indeed. That's not to say I like it! I have acquired lots of books for resale whose book value isn't even remotely reached on eBay. Frustrating? Absolutely! Can I or anyone do anything about it? Nope. But, if people can buy it for less on eBay, then don't you think THAT becomes the new market price? Or, at the very least, lessens the value of items sold in brick and mortar establishments?
Edited to add: Unless an item as some material value that is regulated (gold, silver, etc.), then book pages have NO value in and of themselves. People give them a monetary value. And if what people are not just willing to pay, but also offered the opportunity to pay, is less...then, market value is less.
[ edited by athena1365 on Nov 30, 2000 08:23 AM ]
posted on November 30, 2000 08:20:57 AM
Dejavu is right. Ebay is basically a wholesale market but if your item isn't in the right auction on the right day the auction outcome is frequently very much worse than an average ebay price for that same item.
posted on November 30, 2000 08:31:18 AM
kathyg is right also.
Reasonable price--quick turnaround. There's a lot to be said for that.
A mall owner and dealer that I know auctioned a very cool item several months ago and it brought 2300.00 and something in bids, but didn't meet his reserve and he chose to hang onto it. Months later, it still sits in his shop with a 2750.00 price on it and you know they give the customer a 10% discount if they pay in cash or check.
Were it me, that thing would have been gone to the high bidder months ago if a deal could have been struck.
posted on November 30, 2000 08:34:21 AM
athena1365
I disagree that ebay represents the true market if that is what the bidder is willing to pay.As in order to get items to sell at ebaY prices you have to almost be able to steal it.
For someone to offer 70% of retail is a number below wholesale and you cannot even turn a profit at that discount.
I do not think there is such an item as rare or unique on ebaY as I really do not think it matters.I have items that are rare and unique that are hundreds of years old and one of a kind.
I can get double to triple what they sell at ebaY at brick and mortar auctions.
I agree that antqiue stores are over priced.
I buy a lot of items at auctions in Europe I compete with other dealers for those items.
I regularly get outbid as the price they buy it at is more than what it would sell on ebay.
Yet they sell these items for 2 to 3 times what I do at there traditional establishments.
This is not a complaint just an observation.
I have been doing this for over 3 years on ebaY and sold 1/2 mill in that time.However I continue to see prices decline on ebaY.But they are constant or on the rise at sources of supply.
Back to listing.
So I think ebaY is a wholesale market which means that you have to buy at below wholesale and that is not easy to do.
posted on November 30, 2000 08:43:41 AM
Adrian..when I started on ebay in the spring of 98 I came to the almost immediate conclusion that ebay was a "wholesale" market for the antiques and collectible items I sold.
I found that at local auctions most of the items would sell to brick and mortar dealers at about the prices I could get on ebay. I also found that on ebay I was selling to a lot of dealers for resale.
I still use price guidebooks, but now I use them to learn about a particular collectible and to determine which items in that field are the unusual and thus higher priced pieces. This allowed me recently to pick up an Autumn Leaf teapot for $20 that the other dealers thought was nothing special...I got $108 for it..well below book, but a very nice profit margin for me.
Buying for ebay can be frustrating because, although there may be many items I know will sell, I will normally be outbid on most of them by real world dealers. I know if an item is a "popular" collectible that sells well in the shops I probably will be outbid.
But it is also rewarding because I have a worldwide market to sell to and will frequently come accross something the other dealers are unaware of..something that has a more limited group of collectors and would sit on a dealers shelf for a long time before it would be sold...these items I can sell easily on ebay because I can reach many more potential buyers than they can.
posted on November 30, 2000 08:48:25 AMAs in order to get items to sell at ebaY prices you have to almost be able to steal it.
I don't think this is necessarily so. Most of the items I sell, I buy on eBay. True, I'm not doing this as a living, and I'm not making a lot of money, but I rarely sell at a loss.
posted on November 30, 2000 08:51:06 AM
I too come across such items that do well because I look out for such too.
But you would think with such a wide market of people who have access to ebaY.That you would have more people viewing your items than a traditional brick and mortar auction
house would.
Therefore with an increase in potential customers looking at your items then prices should go up accordingly but they do not.
There is more of such items out there and that does have an affect too.But prices should be closer to what I see them at auction houses where dealers get there stock.
posted on November 30, 2000 08:57:45 AM
Another thing...
Ebay gives me a venue for selling things that I would be wondering what to do with otherwise.
Some of the things that I sell are good and desirable, but not appropriate for an antique shop because of what they are. But on ebay, they find this stuff and snatch it up.
Got 132.00 for three such widgets that I had absolutely no money into. Without ebay I wouldn't have got much, if anything.
posted on November 30, 2000 08:58:23 AMI do not think there is such an item as rare or unique on ebaY as I really do not think it matters.I have items that are rare and unique that are hundreds of years old and one of a kind.
I disagree. The items you typically sell Adrian are only interesting to a limited audience. Once those buyers have peaked in their collections, you won't get the BIG $$$ until some new collectors come along.
I sell a wide assortment of antiques & collectibles and have found over the past 3 yrs that many times the prices my items have fetched on eBay are FAR above what a shop/mall or one of the big auction houses will realize.
Every week I see "rare" items on eBay that truly are rare, and are very sought after by collectors, and end with BIG mumbo prices.
Having a "rare" old item doesn't mean didley, if the item isn't heavily sought after.
Last year I had a "rare" Bing Teddy Bear that I was considering flogging through Christies South Kensington at their Spring "specialty"
Teddy Bear auction. This bear is indeed rare & when/if most dealers in the US get their hands on one they ask between $3,000-4,000.
Christies had this same bear up at their previous "specialty" sale with a pre auction estimate of 1,000-1,500 pounds. It sold for 920 pounds.
I listed mine on eBay & it ended at $2,200 US, and my "commission" to eBay was next to nothing in comparison to what Christies was wanting.
A few weeks back I watched an early Marconi radio finish at $17,000 on eBay. Could it have fetched more at one of the BIG auction houses, perhaps, perhaps not?
But as others have mentioned the beauty of eBay is the fast turnaround, and the small amount of fees the seller pays on a high ticket item. If you are buying your merchandise cheaply, you don't always need the max some of the larger houses will bring in, and IMO that's what makes eBay so attractive to collectors. Lotsa Mom & Pop operations that will list a 1,000 piece for $50 & no reserve.
To most collectors the "hunt" is what it's all about. Nothing better than scoring a hard to find item that was mispelled in the wrong category for a fraction of its "market value".
"A thing is worth whatever the buyer will pay for it." --Publilius Syrus: "Sententiae" ca. 50 B.C.
posted on November 30, 2000 08:59:12 AM
I find that it depends on what the item is. Some items that were sitting in our shop for as low as $75 brought over $1000 on eBay. Other items that we have a fairly good market for in our shop would get very low bids if we put them on eBay. It depends on where one is located also.
I like purchasing china and pottery flamingo figurines and spaghetti poodles but if I put them in my shop at the prices I am paying for them on internet auctions I would never get that amount in my area.
I can buy glassware for resale cheaper on eBay than from the locals. Everytime I buy an item I consider what I can get for it on an internet auction and what I can get for it in my shop. It varies greatly. I buy lots of price guides and though they do not always reflect the true market value (whatever that is) they are still great for research, pictures, etc.
posted on November 30, 2000 09:05:10 AM
I think that it depends entirely upon what you're selling. Here's what I've found from my sales and purchases over the past 18 months (mind you, I do this as a hobbyist, not as a business, and all items are used):
Compact disks--I've done much better than I could have done locally, selling them back to dealers. I've had several international buyers pay many times what they're worth due to items being out-of-print, or being considered a "collectible".
Photographic equipment--There is a considerable amount of success here, as well. Most of my auctions of these items have brought me as much as local and national camera retailers are asking. Can't complain about that.
Audio equipment--I've sold off several pieces of "high-end" audio equipment, in particular two Bang & Olufsen turntables and brought in close to 4X what the current bluebook prices were. Paradoxically, I purchased some new B-stock stereo equipment for my office at prices far below what national wholesalers were offering it for.
Post cards--I have some interest in buying old post cards, and in comparing eBay prices with those of local antique shops, I've found that eBay items are bringing 2-3x the local price.
Overall I think the majority of eBay buyers ARE of the garage sale or flea-market mentality. They're out to find not a good deal, but an absolute steal, and in some cases don't have any idea of the real value of an item.
However, the beauty of internet auctioning is that it opens up specialty and niche markets to both buyers and sellers. Instead of having to accept the limitations of the local market, you have the whole world to deal with.
This is totally an aside, but 18 months ago I was looking for a signed, 1st ed, of Clavell's Shogun. I found a listing online at ABEbooks.com for $60 US. I passed because of a pending divorce. Now I'm seeing unsigned 1st eds going for up to $100. Was the first one a typo or has the market changed that much?
posted on November 30, 2000 09:45:03 AM
Just want to add my thoughts, for what little they're worth:
-I believe that the price something sells for on ebay is more representative of it's true value given that it is much closer to "perfect competition" than an antique store.
-Antique stores prices are wildly inflated in many cases. Of course, you're paying for their overhead and the fact that you can see the item and can take it home with you.
-I have a funny feeling that "book value" is a value set by an antique dealer who contributes to those books stating the values.
-I no longer walk through antique stores to buy. I just look. It's fun, and if I see something I like, I know I can get it cheaper on ebay. I won't even negotiate with a dealer that's trying to sell something at book value; it's just not worth the hassle.
posted on November 30, 2000 10:12:17 AMI no longer walk through antique stores to buy. I just look. It's fun, and if I see something I like, I know I can get it cheaper on ebay. I won't even negotiate with a dealer that's trying to sell something at book value; it's just not worth the hassle
Yep. Antique shops are now my reference source - kind of a museum where I get to handle the exhibits to learn more about that sort of item. Van and I haven't actually bought anything in a shop in over 3 years - and that was a Union Army belt buckle that we got for about 20 cents on the dollar because the dealer didn't know what it was. Funny thing was, everything else in his shop was straight book value
posted on November 30, 2000 10:25:13 AM
"I consider price guides in the same way
as I do modern art. Produced by the totally uninformed, marketed by the totally unscrupulous, for the consumption of the totally gullible."
posted on November 30, 2000 10:33:44 AM
I never buy from antique stores for the same reasons.Last thing I bought was complete volume of Harpers Weekly for 75.00.I sold it a week later on ebaY for 600.00.Dealer had no idea what he had.
But most of these guys get their items at auctions and ebaY prices are below these.
As to I may have a limited collectors market thats true and what I am looking for.
But 2 years ago when there may have been 1 million items listed on ebaY.I could get 1500 to 1800 for a 1620 King James Bible.
Consistently.
Okay 2 years later 6 million items listed,but there is just the same number of these listed today as there was 2 years ago of what I have.
Bidders should have increased in that time,item is scarce so therefore based on supply and demand.Demand should be higher today that it was with the increase in bidders.
This in turn should result in higher prices for the same item.But as of today you are lucky if you can get 1000 for the same item.
Yes the prices have gone up at sources of supply but not ebaY.
posted on November 30, 2000 11:04:27 AM
Adrian ..... I also think you're missing out on the major difference between a brick & mortar auction sale, and one running on eBay.
At the brick & mortar auctons the buyers get to examine the items up close & personal, vs buying something on eBay where depending on the quality of the pic, and/or the bidders monitor quality, they might not be too sure on the condition etc.?
And as we all know, there's always a risk involved when buying online.
I would assume most online bidders of high end items weigh the risk factors involved before placing their bid.
posted on November 30, 2000 11:11:22 AM
imabrit first hand you are exactly right ebay isn't a guide to market prices. But expect that to change in the very near future.
posted on November 30, 2000 11:11:23 AM
imabrit first hand you are exactly right ebay isn't a guide to market prices. But expect that to change in the very near future.
posted on November 30, 2000 11:31:36 AM
>>I would assume most online bidders of high end items weigh the risk factors involved before placing their bid.<<
its not just high end items, its the low end ones as well.
i know that since i began on ebay, ive done a lot more comparative pricing than i had in the past. i often check ebay for a widget that i can get here in town for about $19. the same widget is auctioned on ebay regularly but i dont want to pay $16 for it and then have to pay shipping too. if i did that, it would end up costing about $2 more than if i bought it locally.
I think there may be a few other factors here you haven't considered.
1) Ebay has grown and there are more buyers today than two years ago but there may not have been much of a growth in the buyers of the items your selling.
2) The buyers have gotten more sophisticated and have learned there WILL be another of that rare item they are seeking (even 1600s bibles), so they are unwilling to pay the price they did two years ago when ebay was newer.
At that time I think the buyers thought they had died and gone to collector's heaven...here were ALL those rare and hard to find items they have been looking for for years. They still had the buying mentality they had when looking for the item in the real world...grab it now at what ever the price because they wouldn't ever find another. Now, they know better.
3) It may be the market, generally, for the items your selling is softening. Being on ebay we will see this softening quicker than I think a brick and mortar dealer will. Our merchandise moves faster than the shop owner's merchandise does so we see first what direction the market is taking.
We are the first to see an item, such as playstations this year, start to skyrocket. It only seems logical we would also be the first to see a softening of a market. It may be that those dealers who are paying so much for the bibles will find they can't move them at the profit they expected to.
It is possible that in 6 months those same bibles will drop in price at the auction houses also.
posted on November 30, 2000 11:54:49 AM
2)The buyers have gotten more sophisticated and have learned there WILL be another of that rare item they are seeking (even 1600s bibles), so they are unwilling to pay the price they did two years ago when ebay was newer.
Yes, so very true. The only real exception to that rule seems to be some of the new users to eBay, thank God it takes them awhile to figure that out!
posted on November 30, 2000 12:03:17 PM
Amy.
What you said maybe true,but I do not see a softening of such items at auction houses.Probably it all boils down to a different mentality of buyers on ebay than at such places.
I am not only talking about Bibles that was just an example as I have access to art,books,documents,maps,prints,clocks,cameras,watches,jewellery.You name it I get info on it.But when I look to see the prices brought for such or similar items on ebaY the prices are not there to support buying such at these places.
Are these over priced I do not think so as some of these places have decades and even centuries of dealing in such items.
I am not complaining,bidding is good,I can at least double,triple and even quadruple what I buy it at.But I have to be very selective about what I buy.
I have items I need to match up and pack.
I see the stock market is taking a dive.I think overall that has a bigger effect than anything else out there.
Final note I buy 99% of my items site unseen.Ijust ask the right questions.So its easier to buy on ebaY than it is to buy where I do and there are lots of absentee bidders like me.
As to finding such Bibles for 1000,possibly but not likely as they are tough to find.Like finding a needle in a haystack and they do not just pop up everywhere on the net.
posted on November 30, 2000 12:03:48 PM
Reddeer..so true! Don't you just LOVE 0 feedback users? So fresh and innocent with their fists full of dollars...shouting "buy it!" as they peruse the auction listings.
Long live the newbies! May they stay innocent for MANY transactions!
I have acquired lots of books for resale whose book value isn't even remotely reached on eBay. Frustrating? Absolutely! Can I or anyone do anything about it? Nope. But, if people can buy it for less on eBay, then don't you think THAT becomes the new market price? Or, at the very least, lessens the value of items sold in brick and mortar establishments?