posted on May 17, 2006 01:32:09 PM new
So Classic, I take it, from your response, that you agree that the illegals are taking jobs that no one else wants or what?
No doubt that there are lazy bast*rds on welfare but that still doesn't support the arguement that illegals are taking jobs that no one else wants.
posted on May 17, 2006 02:30:09 PM new
Pi - I don't think it's BS at all. I think that because most of here on this board are people that have taken control of our lives and probably more motivated than most we actually think of ourselves as the norm. We can't imagine shoosing to sit on our butts and be supported by our government when we can do things for ourselves.
The problem is that not everyone is like that and that there are many jobs out there that people do not want to do and would rather take public assistance. In the end, who is the bigger leach on society... the Illegal immigrant that works and pays taxes into the system and occasionally takes advantage of public assistance programs or the citizen that does not work and lives completly off of public assistance?
~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~
People put their hand on the bible, and swear to uphold the constitution. They do not put their hand on the constitution, and swear to uphold the bible.
posted on May 17, 2006 02:52:07 PM new
Individually who is the bigger leach. Who can say for sure but one thing to keep in mind about public assistance is that there are US citizens that are taking advantage of it but that are entitled to it and have good and legitimate reasons for being on it and they offset the total amount of citizens on it, with regards to this discussion. There is no offset of illegal aliens that use public assistance. Every one of them that uses public assistance is doing so without legitimate reasons.
ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø ø¤º°`°º¤ø
[ edited by piinthesky on May 17, 2006 02:55 PM ]
posted on May 17, 2006 03:32:39 PM new
But there is a financial offset in all the ones that work here, earn money, pay taxes into a system that they will not ever see agin. They can't exactly apply for Social Security or Medicaid when they get to retirement can they?
As for "having a good reason". Some do... not all. I was talking to one of my neighbors this weekend. She just turned down a job because she makes more being on public assistance and doing nothing that she would if she got a job. She's also got two kids that she has handed over to relatives because the gov will give the family members money for taking care of them.
~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~
People put their hand on the bible, and swear to uphold the constitution. They do not put their hand on the constitution, and swear to uphold the bible.
[ edited by fenix03 on May 17, 2006 03:33 PM ]
posted on May 17, 2006 03:55:56 PM new
And there you have stated the problem with our welfare system. The system is the problem. Not the people who are on it. You should never get more money being on welfare than you would holding down a full time job.
In the county where I live, you are limited to two years. After that two years, you had better be working. My daughter gets medical and some food stamp help because she's only making $6/hr raising a child. I don't object to that. She's paying taxes. However, if she quits her job she loses even those benefits. So, every couple of months she has to take in her pay stubs to prove she's still employed.
- - - -
Illegals should NOT be able to collect welfare or any other benefit afforded to legal citizens of this country. I'm willing to bet the number of them paying any kind of taxes at all is too insignificant to even mention. Most are being paid with cash.
posted on May 17, 2006 04:01:10 PM new
'Most are being paid with cash.'
That's right but I wanted to see how many times Fenix was going to mention all the illegals paying taxes and paying into Social Security before I said anything about it to correct her.
posted on May 17, 2006 04:18:18 PM new
Pi - if they are not paying into the system then who is donating all those funds to Social Security. Even the government acknowledges that the funds are coming from illegals. The statement that most are being paid cash is an illusion. Sure the guy down the street that picks up a couple day laborors to fix his fench is paying in cash but legit employers are not going to pay in cash because then they cannot write the wages off as operating expenses. The illegals are using fake SS cards. Taxes are being paid into the system but cannot be linked to specific accounts so go into a "suspense account". The total sitting in the suspense account in 2005 was over $519 billion.
::You should never get more money being on welfare than you would holding down a full time job.::
Most unskilled jobs these days do not offer full time hours anymore in order to avoid having to provide any type of benefits or risk paying overtime. 30 hours is the most that most offer.
~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~
People put their hand on the bible, and swear to uphold the constitution. They do not put their hand on the constitution, and swear to uphold the bible.
posted on May 17, 2006 04:37:25 PM new
It is cheaper for an employer to pay cash at a rate lower than minimum wage and not have to worry about having to write it off as a business expense than to legitimately pay at least minimum wage and have to pay all the associated taxes and insurances.
posted on May 17, 2006 05:34:00 PM new
Pi - not at all. You see, the law against employing illegals states that an employer must KNOWINGLY employ them. If the worker presents an ID and social security card, and the employer can provide copies of these items they can claim that they were not aware of the status of their employee. If on the otherhand a company is reporting large incomes in a labor based industry but not showing appropriate payroll expendatures they raise red flags.
Again - all of your hypothesis' are blown to hell by the governments own aknowledgement of the money being paid into the system.
Truth is, if the government wanted to cut down on workers, all they would have to do is notify employers when payments are coming in under non existant or duplicate numbers but they don't this. Ever wonder why?
~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~
People put their hand on the bible, and swear to uphold the constitution. They do not put their hand on the constitution, and swear to uphold the bible.
posted on May 17, 2006 05:40:43 PM new
classic,
Where have you been? Your out of touch but to bring you up to date THERE ISN'T MUCH WELFARE LEFT.
CLASSIC SAID "If thats the case,put the people that are on welfare and make them do the jobs instead of sitting on there mangy ass's all day with their finger up their butt."
THAT NEOCON STATEMENT HAS NO MERIT ANY LONGER. I ONLY STILL HEAR IT FROM THE NEOCONS THAT HAVE BEEN LEFT BEHIND.
posted on May 17, 2006 08:22:09 PM new
I don't understand statements like "most of them are paid in cash". How in the world do you know that? Do you suppose that the enormous U.S. companies like Tyson and Walmart who routinely emply illegals with fake SS Cards are paying them in cash? Uh-huh, right. I know quite a few aliens who are in this country without papers, and the vast majority of them have secured jobs where they receive paychecks just like everybody, and are paying into a SS and Income tax system they will never utilize or reap any benefit from.
And cheryl, could you please point me to some significant figures that indicate the wholesale collection of WELFARE BENEFITS by illegal aliens? I know they're clogging parts of the medical system, but I think this welfare argument is so much BS. I know many illegals who have taken a sick child to the emergency room and received treatment. I also know many whose employers who pay them with checks have insurance and go to doctors like everyone else.Welfare's paid in checks, right? What are people who you believe are getting paid in cash gonna do with checks??
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[ edited by profe51 on May 17, 2006 08:22 PM ]
posted on May 17, 2006 09:01:12 PM new
This is just one of many articles available that dispute the myth of illegals being a drain on public services.
Illegal Immigrants are Paying a Lot More Taxes Than You Think
Eight million illegals pay Social Security, Medicare, and income taxes
By Shikha Dalmia
Denying public services to people who pay their taxes is an affront to America's bedrock belief in fairness. But many "pull-up-the-drawbridge" politicians want to do just that when it comes to illegal immigrants.
The fact that illegal immigrants pay taxes at all will come as news to many Americans. A stunning two-thirds of illegal immigrants pay Medicare, Social Security and personal income taxes. Yet, nativists like Congressman Tom Tancredo, R-Colo., have popularized the notion that illegal aliens are a colossal drain on the nation's hospitals, schools and welfare programs — consuming services that they don't pay for.
In reality, the 1996 welfare reform bill disqualified illegal immigrants from nearly all means-tested government programs including food stamps, housing assistance, Medicaid and Medicare-funded hospitalization. The only services that illegals can still get are emergency medical care and K-12 education.
Nevertheless, Tancredo and his ilk pushed a bill through the House criminalizing all aid to illegal aliens — even private acts of charity by priests, nurses and social workers. Potentially, any soup kitchen that offers so much as a free lunch to an illegal could face up to five years in prison and seizure of assets.
The Senate bill that recently collapsed would have tempered these draconian measures against private aid. But no one — Democrat or Republican — seems to oppose the idea of withholding public services. Earlier this year, Congress passed a law that requires everyone who gets Medicaid — the government-funded health care program for the poor — to offer proof of U.S. citizenship so we can avoid "theft of these benefits by illegal aliens," as Rep. Charlie Norwood, R-Ga., puts it.
But, immigrants aren't flocking to the United States to mooch off the government. According to a study by the Urban Institute, the 1996 welfare reform effort dramatically reduced the use of welfare by undocumented immigrant households, exactly as intended. And another vital thing happened in 1996: the Internal Revenue Service began issuing identification numbers to enable illegal immigrants who don't have Social Security numbers to file taxes.
One might have imagined that those fearing deportation or confronting the prospect of paying for their safety net through their own meager wages would take a pass on the IRS' scheme. Not so. Close to 8 million of the 12 million or so illegal aliens in the country today file personal income taxes using these numbers, contributing billions to federal coffers. No doubt they hope that this will one day help them acquire legal status — a plaintive expression of their desire to play by the rules and come out of the shadows.
What's more, aliens who are not self-employed have Social Security and Medicare taxes automatically withheld from their paychecks. Since undocumented workers have only fake numbers, they'll never be able to collect the benefits these taxes are meant to pay for. Last year, the revenues from these fake numbers — that the Social Security administration stashes in the “earnings suspense file” — added up to 10 percent of the Social Security surplus. The file is growing, on average, by more than $50 billion a year.
Beyond federal taxes, all illegals automatically pay state sales taxes that contribute toward the upkeep of public facilities such as roads that they use, and property taxes through their rent that contribute toward the schooling of their children. The non-partisan National Research Council found that when the taxes paid by the children of low-skilled immigrant families — most of whom are illegal — are factored in, they contribute on average $80,000 more to federal coffers than they consume.
Yes, many illegal migrants impose a strain on border communities on whose doorstep they first arrive, broke and unemployed. To solve this problem equitably, these communities ought to receive the surplus taxes that federal government collects from immigrants. But the real reason border communities are strained is the lack of a guest worker program. Such a program would match willing workers with willing employers in advance so that they wouldn't be stuck for long periods where they disembark while searching for jobs.
The cost of undocumented aliens is an issue that immigrant bashers have created to whip up indignation against people they don't want here in the first place. With the Senate having just returned from yet another vacation and promising to revisit the stalled immigration bill, politicians ought to set the record straight: Illegals are not milking the government. If anything, it is the other way around.
Shikha Dalmia is a senior analyst at Reason Foundation, a free-market think tank. This column was originally distributed by the Knight Ridder/Tribune News Service.
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posted on May 17, 2006 09:40:54 PM newThe cost of undocumented aliens is an issue that immigrant bashers have created to whip up indignation against people they don't want here in the first place.
That whole thing reads as if ALL illegal aliens are actually working on the books and contributing their fair share of taxes and not benifiting from government benifit programs. When the truth of the matter is that, yes some are but certainly not all.
I could care less that some illegal aliens contribute to tax coffers without being able to benifit from their contributions because THEY'RE ILLEGALS.
Should they be allowed to draw from Social Security when they qualify for it? Not only no but hell no because..........you guessed it, THEY'RE ILLEGALS.
Oh the poor illegals are being bashed, oh gosh what an injustice being perpretrated aginst these unfortunate and innocent people. Cry me a river over it why don't you.
posted on May 17, 2006 09:52:21 PM new
My husband was pointing out today that having the illegals here is actually foreign aid; they're sending $2 billion (yes, BILLION) a year to their families back in Mexico. Some of the workers are sending as much as $200 or $300 a week home. President Fox has NO incentive to help the U.S. guard the borders. America is the cash cow for Mexico.
I've felt for years that having your founding father in a family enter this country illegally can set a tone for those to come in the family. Break the law, nothing happens. That really bothers me, and I'm a liberal too.
posted on May 17, 2006 10:53:28 PM new
::I've felt for years that having your founding father in a family enter this country illegally can set a tone for those to come in the family. Break the law, nothing happens.::
Rubbish
~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~
People put their hand on the bible, and swear to uphold the constitution. They do not put their hand on the constitution, and swear to uphold the bible.
posted on May 17, 2006 11:26:23 PM new
I think it's rubbish on a number of fronts.
If you believe that a lack of consequences to lawlessness breads indifference then wouldn't it stand to reeason that seeing an parent suffer the consequences of lawlessness would breed a respect for the law? I think that the number of juvenile offenders with parents that have been in or are in the system prove that one to be incorrect.
Also these people come here to make a better life for themselves and their family and they teach their kids to have respect for all that they have here that they would not have in their home country.
Of course you are going to have those that break the law but there are 3rd and fourth genration members of our society whose parents are law abiding citizens that don't respect the law.
~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~
People put their hand on the bible, and swear to uphold the constitution. They do not put their hand on the constitution, and swear to uphold the bible.
posted on May 17, 2006 11:27:38 PM new
It will be interesting to see how these people are going to pay any fines levied against them.
I suppose fenix if you were robbed it would be ok because the person needed the work? Same for you profe.
One thing you and profe have overlooked and keep overlooking is what Pii has pointed out these people are ILLEGAL and deserve nor have earned anything they get here.
posted on May 17, 2006 11:29:43 PM newthey teach their kids to have respect for all that they have here that they would not have in their home country.
BULL sht
These people have no respect or values, they are criminals.
posted on May 18, 2006 05:00:32 AM new
Respect???? Apparently, you've never lived in the inner city. I lived among the immigrants (some I'm sure are illegals) and most of them have NO respect for anyone but themselves around here. I have to live with loud salsa music at 7:00 a.m. on a Sunday morning. I have to live with the constant parties until the wee hours of the morning during the week, the parking half way across MY driveway, the children running around unsupervised through my and other neighbor's yards and gardens. And, when you say something to them what does it get you? Nothing. They ignore you or bark back at you in Spanish. Apparently this kind of behavior is acceptable where they come from. So, don't tell me how they teach their children to respect all they have here. From what I've seen around here that's rubbish. I'm sure if I called INS, there would be a big roundup around here. I give myself credit because I have refrained from doing so.
I'm all for loosening immigration rules so that becoming a citizen isn't so difficult. I am NOT for amnesty for those who are here illegally. It's a slap in the face to my ancestors who did it the right way - legally. And, don't tell me the rules were easier then. My great grandparents didn't come here until the early 1900s. I don't think the rules have changed all that much since then. Illegal is illegal. Or is illegal only illegal when it applies to other things? Which is it?
posted on May 18, 2006 05:14:52 AM new
cheryl, I think if you have the courage of your convictions, you absolutely should call INS. Otherwise quitcherbitchin. Just think on the bright side, there are lots of people with annoying neighbors who aren't illegal. At least you've got an option.
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posted on May 18, 2006 06:25:12 AM new
I have annoying neighbors too. There are 5 people living in the one bedroom under me. They blast the most annoying music at all hours. They spend most of their time on the deck under my ofice window drinking and yelling at another neighbor they have a beef with and between the five of them I'll be damned if I can figure out which one is the parent of the toddler that wanders around everywhere and whose favorite past time is picking up rocks and throwing them at people.
And guess what.. they are good old fashioned, americans. The whole annoying inconsiderate lot of them.
~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~
People put their hand on the bible, and swear to uphold the constitution. They do not put their hand on the constitution, and swear to uphold the bible.
posted on May 18, 2006 08:50:56 AM new
Fenix: You made some good points in response to my question. Thank you.
The experience some have mentioned above (Cheryl, etc.) is closer to that of long-time homeowners in the inner city we just moved from.
From what I've read, when any immigrant group first comes to the U.S. each succeeding member of that family sort of moves in with the earlier arrivals, and that creates crowding. It's normal behavior, I think. When my two sets of immigrant grandparents, Swedish and German, first came to America, that's what happened. But there have always been behavioral norms in Sweden and Germany about noise, appearance of property, etc.
When we visit in Mexico, as we used to do every winter, there ARE loud parties coming from homes, very late at night. There ARE front yards filled with rubbish. Even the hotel we always stayed at seemed unable to do anything about the loud music coming from nearby residences and bars late at night. (Unwanted noise is just another form of assault--my objection to boomboxes.)
We hotel guests, from America, expected different behavior from that. Same goes for longtime homeowners in inner cities here.
posted on May 18, 2006 09:21:37 AM new
::Fenix: You made some good points in response to my question. Thank you.::
My pleasure.
As for the state of noise in Mexico. I know what you mean. The hotel I stayed at in TJ has a bar on one side, restaurant on the other and apartments behind. There was never a quite moment but I loved it. There was great energy. I found it energizing but I guess if you are going for peace and quite it can get annoying. I think the reason that we expect different here in the states is that our hotels are in commercial zones and tend to have a surrounding parking lot that acts like a buffer zone from outside noise. Far different than Mexico.
~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~
People put their hand on the bible, and swear to uphold the constitution. They do not put their hand on the constitution, and swear to uphold the bible.
posted on May 18, 2006 10:07:09 AM new
Thanks Linda...
Hey ... if everyone joins in we can move on to the next page and leave the overly long non working link to a search rather than an article behind on this this one.
~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~
People put their hand on the bible, and swear to uphold the constitution. They do not put their hand on the constitution, and swear to uphold the bible.
posted on May 18, 2006 10:44:14 AM new
We probably really should go easy on Linda
because she does come from an area of the
country that even Einstein would agree that
everyone is relative.
Pi <----- is ducking now!
ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø ø¤º°`°º¤ø
[ edited by piinthesky on May 18, 2006 10:45 AM ]
[ edited by profe51 on May 17, 2006 08:22 PM ]