posted on December 10, 2000 10:00:32 AM new
I was told by both mastercard and visa that the protection is only if the debit card is used like a credit card. If it is used as a debit card there is no protection.
posted on December 10, 2000 11:46:24 AM new
Does anyone know Discover's chargeback policy? I have a customer that initated 2 chargebacks from 6/2/00 and 7/1/00. Both shipments were insured, but the buyer never contacted me.
Now, I am disputing both chargebacks through Billpoint. To top it off the phone number Billpoint gave me for this buyer is no good and neither is the phone number in the Ebay contact info. Of course, no reply to email either.
That's unfortunate. If you had processed the card yourself, you normally can contact the card-issuing bank (discover) to obtain their contact information, because you would have their account number. Would Billpoint do this for you?
What actually happens when you get a chargeback notice from Billpoint? I'd really like to know what it says.
posted on December 10, 2000 03:56:03 PM new
Hi miracle118,
This is the notice I received for one of the chargebacks from Billpoint. Of course, it didn't have all those XXXX's.
Dear Ann
Billpoint Payment Operations has received a purchase verification from Visa
requesting a reversal of the listed transaction below initiated by the
cardholder, arising from a processing technicality or a customer dispute.
We need your help in resolving this issue by doing the following:
1) Please contact the buyer to confirm the dispute and resolve the matter if
possible and then contact Billpoint.
2) If you agree to the charges, please contact Billpoint.
3) If you dispute the charges, please provide Billpoint the following:
a) A detailed reason for refusal
b) A copy of you business return/ cancellation policy, if
applicable.
Please respond by 12/12/00.response is received by following one of
the above items, we will debit your Billpoint account in the amount of
$14.69 $10.00 processing fee.
Should you have any additional questions, please feel free to contact
Billpoint Payment Operations between the hours of 8:00 AM and 5:00 PM (PST)
at (415) 396 4301.
Sincerely,
xxx
415 396 4301 PHONE
415 947 8903 FAX
So far Billpoint has been in contact with me getting the information for my dispute. They are going to send the U-PIC claim form to Discover and tell them I never heard from this customer about non-delivery. I do find it strange that 2 shipments a month apart from each other would not arrive. Maybe one but 2 seems a bit off.
Both charges are not very much either one for $14.69 6/00 and $34 7/00.
Thanks for posting that. What a vague notification. I get the feeling that the buyer is pulling one of those "deny receipt, get charges reversed" scams, because any buyer that I've had not receive something contacted me first.
When I first read your post, the notification was worded in such a way to cause me to think that the buyer just didn't recognize the charge (they asked for purchase verification). But, it's obvious that's not it.
I will tell you what the Visa chargeback management guide says about this:
"If the merchandise was delivered, send your merchant bank evidence of delivery, such as a delivery receipt signed by the cardholder or a carrier's confirmation that the merchandise was delivered to the correct address...If you are currently shipping merchandise without requesting proof of delivery, consider the costs and benefits of doing so compared to the value of merchandise you ship. Proof of delivery, such as certified mail or a carrier's certification that the merchandise was delivered to the correct address and signed by the cardholder, will allow you to return the chargeback if the customer claims the merchandise was not received."
Of course, you are already doing that now. But I posted this to provide an example of what is considered proof of delivery.
Hopefully, U-Pic will be able to re-imburse you for the loss of the value of the merchandise. But you probably will have to eat the chargeback processing fee charges.
If you are doing considerable business on eBay, it may be worthwhile for you to get your own merchant account. Novus (discover card) has some programs with no monthly fees, just the processing fees. Having your own merchant account gives you much more control. I have had one chargeback, and I received so much documentation that I had no problem understanding the customer's dispute. I even received a copy of the documentation THEY send their card issuing bank.
posted on December 10, 2000 06:31:36 PM new
Miracle,
Yes, Billpoint's email was vague, so I sent them a bunch of info. That seemed to help figure out what the problem was.
I'm hoping U-PIC will still pay a claim after this long.
Due to too many reasons to go into a Merchant account at this point is not a feasbile thing for me to do.
Thanks for your replies and Visa info, it was very helpful!
Ann
posted on December 11, 2000 09:44:27 AM new
Ann .... Just click on the "edit" link, next to the time stamp at the top of your post. You have to be signed in for it to show up.
posted on December 11, 2000 11:39:33 AM new
I for one have just jumpped OFF the bandwagon and removed ALL e-payment options from my auctions. (Except for the batch I had to accept XPath for on the free listing day last week).
I started taking PayPal in April and I loved it.. The extra $5, the quick money, the no lies about "payment sent", etc..
Then I signed up for XPath too, even before the free listing day. I used it for a few transactions, especially after PayPal started changing their rules and charging me a ton of money to get a payment.
I read with interest all of the negative comments about PayPal and XPath, and while I understood the risks, since I didn't have any problems with either myself, I decided to keep using them.
Now after reading this thread, especially the comments about you "accepting the CC companies TOS instead of your own" I'm scared to death. I cannot afford to get chargebacks on anything I've sold... I have 2 types of things I sell.. old electronic collectables that are fairly stable in price lately, and then good deals I find and resell that quickly depreciate (and become worth half the value after 6 months, and another 33% for being "used".
Therefore I have decided to no longer accept CC payments at all.
And MUCH to my amazement... I listed 8 things since Friday night, THREE of them already closed with BuyItNow (with what I felt were in the 90% towards the high end of previously closing prices) and the winners actually had higher feedback than my other winners and didn't even ask about epayments.. Saying the MO would be out shortly!
Yippee!!!
Side Note: Lately I've had to handhold 5+ customers through XPath or PayPal.. One really bad 30 day old (between win date and last communication--STILL not being paid) PayPal transaction was that the buyer swore she sent payment to me, I escalated it all the way to PayPal support, who didn't tell me much other than "she didn't sent it to your email address" (but didn't tell me WHAT address she used). Of which she didn't believe me and emailed me back her online transaction receipt, and sure enough, she added an extra letter in the email address, and it showed "UNREGISTERED USER". After I told her 4 TIMES that when asked, enter my last name to verify she's sending it to the right REGISTERED user! She had 0 feedback obiously.
Another user with 100+ feedback sent it to the wrong email as well!
THANK you to this board and the users for posting the horror stories and warnings about accepting these payments. I have reformed... And now am back to selling my electronic collectables and occassional parts from my personal computer upgrades and no more "deals".
posted on December 11, 2000 12:47:14 PM new
Hi Reddeer, Thanks for the tip on the edit. I totally missed it on my post. It's very small.
Mrlatenite, About 1/3 of my sales are paid with PayPal or Billpoint. I prefer Billpoint (money hits my account faster). These are the first chargebacks I have had since taking epayments. I have actually had more bounced checks. But, a bounced check doesn't take 5 months to be reported to me either.
Billpoint has been good at contacting me for information on the transactions in question. I have been going back and forth on whether to continue taking epayments. Haven't come to a final decision yet.
posted on December 11, 2000 01:20:20 PM new
Actually, I love the looks of my new EOA notice.. It's so short and sweet now that it just has my mailing address and 2 lines stating "Money Orders preferred and will get items shipped within 3 days of receipt, personal checks accepted with up to 14 day hold for clearning"
No more listing of the payment address of each of the sites, the referral links, the plea to send to XPath and not paypal to save me 3%, etc...
It's nice to have the EOA notice almost fit on a palm-pc display screen again
posted on December 11, 2000 02:18:52 PM newI was told by both mastercard and visa that the protection is only if the debit card is used like a credit card. If it is used as a debit card there is no protection.
What do you mean here? If I use my debit card to make a payment through Paypal, am I using it as a debit card or as a credit card. How about if I use it at the grocery store?
posted on December 11, 2000 02:43:13 PM new
I just received an email from Billpoint. I can't believe this..Hello Kim
"The time frame on disputing credit card transactions is between 120 and 180
days, depending on the type of dispute.
The dispute we received from the issuing bank stated she is claiming she did
not authorize the transaction. The address provided to you in the Billpoint
invoice for shipping was verified as her billing address. Can you provide
proof of shipping/deliver to this address? If you can, please fax it to 415
947 8903. "
180 days?? I called the buyer last night. She said that me calling was the first she had heard about a chargeback. She also said that her purse was stolen. I asked her to please contact Billpoint and get it sorted out. I have the feeling I'll be out the doll, the money and Billpoint's stupid processing fee.
I will be taking Billpoint AND Paypal off of my auctions.
posted on December 11, 2000 02:51:30 PM new
Reddeer referred me to this thread, from my Bad Packing thread.
I have contacted Billpoint through their Customer Care link, to ask for (I hope) a chargeback for an item that came damaged in the post, due to the seller's back packing (a loose pin/badge, unwrapped, inside the styrofoam packing of a china figurine, which broke two bits off). I contacted my credit card company, and the loss is too small for them ($43), and it is also too small for my household insurance (£50 deductible). Is this the sort of thing that Billpoint will address?
It is not a total loss, but neither is it what was described (mint). The seller claims it is not her responsibility, as I had no insurance (it said it was included in S&H for the US, and I presumed she would have it insured for the UK too). Even if I had insurance, I don't believe they would pay out when it is clearly the packing that was at fault.
I'm sorry to say that if your CC company refuses to allow a charge back, Billpoint can't do anything for you. eBay has insurance up to $200, but items damaged in the mail are not covered under that policy.
I'm sorry your Xmas present was ruined, and the seller you are dealing with is being such a bone head. About all you can do is state the facts in a calm clear way when you leave negative feedback.
P.S. My buyers from the UK have always been fantastic!
posted on December 11, 2000 03:19:59 PM new
I also wanted to add, due to this statement from Billpoint:
"The time frame on disputing credit card transactions is between 120 and 180 days, depending on the type of dispute.
I will also be dropping them sometime after Xmas. Some of the items I sell go for $250- $1,000, and I just don't need this kind of aggravation.
I have no problem with a buyer wanting a refund, if the reason is a legitimate one, but I'm not about to set myself up as a mark for every screwball bidder that decides to go on a runaway with Mom's CC.
I never hold personal checks, and accept MO's and CC payments via BidPay.
posted on April 5, 2001 08:54:20 AM new
I thought this was settled until I received this email from Billpoint this morning.
"This is a courtesy notice to inform you that we are submitting
a checking account debit for 31.8 as a result of your
Billpoint On-line Payments activity. Please ensure that you
have sufficient funds present in your account to cover this
transaction.
For additional information on this transaction, please check the Deposits & Fees Section of Your Billpoint Account.
Should you have questions or concerns, please feel free to
contact a Billpoint Payment Operations Specialist at
[email protected].
Thank you,
Billpoint"
This is all about an item I sold in July of last year. The last I heard from Billpoint was in December when they told me they couldn't contact the buyer. How can they legally do this after 9 months? The buyer gets to keep her doll, the money AND I get charged $10 on top of it?
posted on April 5, 2001 09:12:39 AM new
Some sellers like us were surprised when we got a chargeback 6 months later. Now yours is even longer so I guess it proves there is no limit? Sorry this has happened to you and I don't know it there is anything that can be done. You may still try to dispute it and hope for the best.
We had two attempted chargebacks in our RL store last week and we talked with the bank. We have two signed slips for the transactions so we won't be charged.
The bank told us if one does business on the internet then chargebacks are a chance they must take if they accept CC payments. She said to balance the risk with the amount of money you are making and decide if it is worth it.
posted on April 5, 2001 12:32:54 PM new
You have to decide if it's worth it but you can instruct your bank to block the charge. Of course, you will lose your billpoint account and probably your ebay account. Hard as it is to believe, even sellers have some rights.
When I get charged back by my CC company, if I show proof of delivery to the correct address, the charge back is denied. Billpoint should offer you the same protection. You can also file fraud charges against the buyer. But do try to contact her first. 2 out of the 3 charge backs made against me were from customers who just forgot what they ordered and were quick to correct it.
I also recommend that you accept CC through Western Union's Moneyzap or Citibank's C2it. MZ contacts every buyer on the first payment to confirm identity. Hard to claim unauthorized afterward. C2it has stricter charge back rules.
payment service ratings
posted on April 5, 2001 01:38:51 PM new
I still believe that most people are honest and that there is only a small risk of chargebacks. So I will continue to accept credit card payments.
Of course if I suddenly started getting a lot of chargebacks I would rethink my policy pretty fast.
I also think this depends lots on what kind of product you are selling. Some are more risky than others.
posted on April 5, 2001 02:07:43 PM newI also think this depends lots on what kind of product you are selling
I agree 100%. The majority of the people that bid on MY items, don't want to pay via a CC. Even when I offered Billpoint 80% of my high bidders chose to send a check or MO. Even with the Billpoint option removed it doesn't appear to have affected my number of bids, or final ending prices.
I now not only don't have to be concerned with charge backs, but I also don't have to give eBay/Billpoint the fees they were charging, nor do I have to put up with their SNAFU's that took place from time to time.
Ditto with PayPal, I've never offered their services & it has never affected my sales.
Since PayPal started up I've had maybe 3 or 4 bidders/potential bidders ask me if I would accept PayPal.
Not offering CC payments has simplified my business.
If I notice a change, perhaps I'll rethink the CC option in the future?
posted on April 5, 2001 03:27:01 PM new
I should also add I still offer Billpoint once in awhile when I expect the high bidder will be from overseas, and the $$ amount is low.
posted on April 5, 2001 03:58:07 PM new
Exactly how far away did you ship the item?
The fine print on the back of my own credit card statement says, "...If you have a problem with the quality of goods or services that you purchased with a credit card, and you have tried in good faith to correct the problem with the merchant, you may not have to pay the remaining amount due on the goods or services. You have this protection only when the purchase price was more than $50 and the purchase was made in your home state or within 100 miles of your mailing address..."
Maybe you can call them on the fact that the buyer bought out of state or over 100 miles away? It is certainly worth a shot if that is the case here.
posted on April 5, 2001 04:05:29 PM new
Hi mrlatenight,
I am responding to this, as I do for all customer concerns relative to charge backs and PayPal:
Charge backs are relatively rare items, but there is a slight element of risk when accepting credit card payments (as many of the users have testified to).Many users are worried about them because they may lose money.
As I have pointed to several times in other threads, Paypal does have protection from charge backs if you follow the details of the Seller Protection Program. This is to eliminate the possibility that you will lose money, but it has to be followed exactly.
I have a thread in the Partner Services forum about charge backs. Please feel free to review it and ask me any questions in that forum.
---------------------------------------------
"Now after reading this thread, especially the comments about you "accepting the CC companies TOS instead of your own" I'm scared to death. I cannot afford to get chargebacks on anything I've sold... I have 2 types of things I sell.. old electronic collectables that are fairly stable in price lately, and then good deals I find and resell that quickly depreciate (and become worth half the value after 6 months, and another 33% for being "used"."
---------------------------------------------
posted on April 9, 2001 01:20:19 PM new
Here is the latest from Billpoint:
"Unfortunately, the person with whom you engaged in this transaction is not the actual cardholder *******(buyer's name). The actual cardholder is stating someone (the buyer) obtained their account information and used it to make a fraudulent purchase. We have blacklisted and blocked the buyer on Billpoint and advised eBay.
Chargebacks can take up to 120 days to initiate and may take even longer to take effect. The timing may also be affected by when the actual cardholder receives and reviews their statement.
We understand that buyer fraud is very upsetting and we do every thing we can to help sellers spot and stop it. With that said, Billpoint credit card transactions are subject to all the Visa/Mastercard rules associated with credit card acceptance. In other words they are not guaranteed transactions and repudiation by the buyer is possible.
Per Visa/Mastercard regulations to represent a chargeback for fraudulent usage, we need information to demonstrate that either 1. the buyer did make this purchase and doesn't recognize it or 2. the buyer did make this purchase, did receive the merchandise and is trying to avoid paying for it. In this case the information we have does point towards fraudulent use of this credit card information by someone other than the true cardholder. Given this information, we are not able to represent this chargeback to the buyer's Issuing Bank.
Sincerely,
The Billpoint Chargebacks Team "
Is there anything else I can do?? This buyer has numerous negatives for nonpayments with many different excuses. How could it be that she is not the cardholder? I shipped to the cardholders name and she answered the phone as herself. Her Billpoint information matched. Her email that she's registered on eBay and Billpoint, has her real name as part of the email address. How can it not be her?
posted on April 9, 2001 02:12:51 PM new
The odds are in your favor that this is the same person. If you can find other sellers that where taken for a ride,see if you can file for fraud charges as a group.
Its a big risk to take cc on line. The banks and consumer laws have to catch up to the 21 century. Its to bad that people think that its their right to get something for nothing.
And even if they get caught, all they get is a slap on the wrist.
Do the best you can and make up your own mind if this is worth the risk to keep taking cc on line. One needs a stong heart to do this. Best of luck.
.