posted on January 13, 2001 01:47:17 PM
My policy is that I leave feedback only when the transaction is completed, which is after a buyer has informed me he/she has received the product and is satisfied.
My feeling is (even though this has never happened to me yet) that in case the buyer never receives the product, I'll want to leave that in his feedback. Not necessarilly a negative or neutral rating, but just note it in his/her feedback for others to see in case a pattern develops. For instance, if a buyer claims to never receive a product and everything is taken care of without problems (including me refunding the money), I would leave a positive feedback along the lines of "Buyer never received product, but was helpful in resolving issue".
Anyway, I've bought from some folks who leave feedback right after I pay and before I receive the product, and once you've left feedback it can't be changed, right? So these people leave me positive feedback, then I turn around and try to rip them off. They can't go back and change their feedback, can they (or can they add another feedback?).
posted on January 13, 2001 01:55:20 PM
Hi again, I personally leave feedback when payment is received (and cleared, at that point I feel they have done their part). I also feel like that shows an assumption of everything going well. Although I see your point, when I have not received feedback from a seller within a reasonable period of time after payment, I begin to wonder that maybe he thinks there'll be a reason that I won't be happy and is keeping his options open. Maybe I'm just paranoid!?!
posted on January 13, 2001 02:04:32 PM
And once again, it's feedback extortion. As long as my payment is received and the seller is happy with that, they should leave feedback. Why would you hold out for "problems?" As long as you complete your end, no worries, right. If you're worried about getting a neg, what are you doing that you're worried?
I believe that sellers that hold back feedback, is so that they can retaliate a neg. When I get the note with my item that says "thanks, here's your widget. When we see you have left feedback, we'll do the same" I just get steamed. Sure enough if they screwed me, i'm leaving a neg. Then they can come back and leave me one. They got paid. End of story. They never get feedback from me. Most of the sellers that practice this are the ones that charge $3.00 for shipping and when I get my widget, it's in a plain white envelope with a 33 cent stamp. Most times it ends up bent or damaged.
posted on January 13, 2001 02:16:49 PMAs long as my payment is received and the seller is happy with that, they should leave feedback.
Should???
Feedback is voluntary. The seller should do whatever they feel is appropriate.
I believe that sellers that hold back feedback, is so that they can retaliate a neg.
The point could just as easily be made that buyers want sellers to leave feedback on receipt of payment in order to be able to use the threat of posting a neg as leverage later on.
Just because some people (buyers or sellers) do something for a particular reason, is no cause to assume that all do for the same reason.
posted on January 13, 2001 02:21:56 PM
Hi BECKLES! Like you - I like to leave my feedback after buyer has received item and advised me all is well or whatever! If I post good feedback before buyer received item - then buyer receives item and is not happy with it and it becomes a big stink!
posted on January 13, 2001 02:22:06 PM
The transaction is not over until the buyer has received the item and s/he is satisfied.
The buyer can either notify the seller via email or feedback that the item has arrived and nothing else is required of either party... which signals that the transaction is complete.
Participation in the feedback forum is VOLUNTARY.
Once both parties agree that the transaction is completed to their satisfaction, they could also agree (or decide on their own) whether or not to leave feedback regarding the transaction.
Nobody is "ENTITLED" to feedback.... it's EARNED one way or the other and it's completely voluntary.
posted on January 13, 2001 02:59:39 PM
I don't leave feedback until the transaction is complete. Even after payment is received there are things a buyer can do that would earn him a negative.
Suppose a buyer is unhappy with the merchandise that I sent him and he wants to return it. I say Ok and wait and wait and wait. After 2 months and lots of excuses it finally shows up. Does this person deserve a positive just because he paid quickly? I don't think so.
Suppose he returns it and it's damaged because he didn't pack it well. Or he broke it and claimed it was damaged in shipping. Or I send him a widget in mint condition and he switches it and returns a widget in fair condition. Does this person deserve a positive just because he paid quickly? I don't think so.
Suppose he reports that the package never showed up and instead of cooperating to get the insurance money, he justs has his credit card company chargeback the amount. Without him completing the insurance forms, you're not able to collect the insurance. Does this person deserve a positive just because he paid quickly? I don't think so.
I'm sure there are other things a buyer can do to screw up a transaction.
Luckily, these are rare occurances. But, I think it is more important to give the bad guys a neg than the good guys a positive. Giving a positive to a good guy isn't going to make a significant difference to him, but giving a positive to a con artist makes him look honest and makes it easier for him to cheat more people.
I just don't see why people care who gives feedback first. As a buyer, I give feedback as soon as I get the merchandise whether the seller gave me feedback or not. As a seller, I give feedback when the buyer lets me know he got the merchandise and everything is OK whether he's given me feedback or not.
As long as I get my money or merchandise, I don't care if the other person gives me feedback first or, even, at all.
posted on January 13, 2001 03:00:08 PM
I agree that the feedback is voluntary. It's just that when they say they'll only leave feedback if I do, is when I get cranky. As a seller, If they pay in a timely fashion, then they get a pos. If they don't pay, they get a neg. When buying. If I get the item and am happy, again a pos. If damaged or not what I bid on, then I complain. If they resolve and I'm happy, then a pos. If they ignore me, they get a neg. Get the pattern. If feedback is going to be left then don't be extorting me to leave you some.
posted on January 13, 2001 03:02:08 PMBeckles, why would you leave a feedback containing Buyer never received product?
As a buyer I would be really ticked off with this feedback. For all I know the seller decided they didn't like the final price and claimed shipping and then refunded. What has the buyer got to do with the fact that the package never arrived? Do you have proof via a delivery receipt it didn't arrive? Are you assuming that anyone who claims the package didn't arrive is trying to rip you off?
As a buyer, I don't care if there was a problem with the sale, if the seller and I come to a mutually aggreable solution, I leave positive feedback that does NOT mention anything about the problem. Why should I, it was resolved?
Greg
Edited to add: And sellers wonder why buyers don't like being forced to leave feedback first.
[ edited by gjsi on Jan 13, 2001 03:03 PM ]
posted on January 13, 2001 03:12:39 PM
As a seller, I leave feedback as soon as payment is received and cleared. I have never neg'd anyone, and the only time I would is if I received a bad check that couldn't be resolved or some other such issue which I feel should be shared by others, in case the buyer is a habitual rip off. I don't understand anyone who is anxious to neg buyers. I don't make my living doing this, it is a nice, interesting secondary income, and finances my book buying habits, but I do look on this as a business, and I consider it very bad business to make any negative commentary about my customers for all to see, in any but the very worst circumstances. Sometimes people are slow to pay, I can understand that, things happen in all our lives, no problem. Sometimes I don't get paid at all, big deal, buyer doesn't get the item, no harm, no foul, I'm out a few cents or a buck or two in fees, it won't break me. Most particpants on ebay, from my experience, are good honest people wanting to make a satisfying transaction. Sometimes I see the immature behavior that has pervaded the internet for years pop up in this venue in the form of silly negatives, retaliatory negatives, etc. It's silly, and it's bad business. I can understand buyers posting negs when they truly feel they have been cheated, after trying to resolve the issue. For sellers, posting a neg on a customer should be a really rare thing, and as pleasant as pulling teeth.
Nick, the damdude (Hoover Dam, control center operator)
posted on January 13, 2001 03:13:32 PM
I leave feedback when the buyer does for the following reasons:
1. The check may bounce
2. Its easier to leave a few feedbacks daily
3. It protects me from hostile buyers
4. It shows me the buyer received the goods
5. It makes sure instead of giving a 100 and only receiving 30-35, I get a fair share of them.
posted on January 13, 2001 03:24:18 PM
IMHO, I'm on the side of leaving feedback upon receipt of payment ~ it's just good business to me. I appreciate the fast pays and I ship fast ~ immediate FB let's a bidder know that the transaction is still "active". It also keeps me in a "positive light" in case USPS decides to lose the package in their black hole for a few days. regarding the FB retaliation, I have, unfortunately, had to leave quite a few negs. Not because I enjoy it but because I have an obligation to other sellers. They don't need to waste their time of $$. I also have an obligation to my bidders ~ if a bidder is a deadbeat, why should he be allowed to continue bidding and inflating the price of auctions when a Good Guy is getting outbid or bid up unnecessarily. BTW, not a neg on me yet and it's been over 900 trans so far (90% seller). Whatever works for you ~ I just gotta do our part to keep eBay fun.....
posted on January 13, 2001 03:25:38 PM
The convention that sellers leave feedback when payment is received is a throw-back from the days before transactional feedback/one feedback only. There is too much that can go wrong after payment is received, and if the item is lost or damaged in the mail, it should be noted in the feedback profile, not necessarily as a complaint.
Sellers who leave feedback upon payment could give a hoot about warning the eBay community, and I can't say I blame them. eBay relies on the feedback forum to police bad buyers/sellers, yet eBay offers no protection of its own. For example, a seller like me who gets 50 deadbeats a month is left wide open to retaliatory feedback.
Buyers who INSIST on feedback first are just being a pain. They can't admit they're caught up in the great feedback race, so they invent stories about feedback extortion. If a seller gets an email that reads, "I'm waiting for your feedback so I can leave feedback for you," nobody thinks twice about it. When a seller does that, it's extorition. Ya-right!
posted on January 13, 2001 03:27:40 PM
If the buyer leaves feedback for me that's great, but I don't expect it.
When I mail a package I include a note asking that they contact me to let me know it arrived. I also track with DC and email them when I know they have received it. If I get an email saying they are satisfied, I leave feedback. The deal is not complete until they are satisfied(if possible).
Of course there are some buyers you can not satisfy, but using feedback as a threat is not morally or ethically right. I would never do that.
posted on January 13, 2001 03:31:39 PM
I leave feedback as soon as a bidder has fulfilled his part of the transaction, i.e., when I receive payment. I refuse to withhold feedback until the bidders leaves feedback for me, since that is just a form of extortion in my opinion. Once the bidder has paid me, I have no excuse not to leave feedback.
But, then again, that's just me....
Barry
---
The opinions expressed above are for comparison purposes only. Your mileage may vary....
posted on January 13, 2001 03:59:07 PM"....For all I know the seller decided they didn't like the final price and claimed shipping and then refunded. What has the buyer got to do with the fact that the package never arrived? "
Huh??? Would someone explain this logic to me? The seller isn't happy with the bid price, so he loses even more money by refunding both the bid price and shipping. Does this make sense to anyone?
"Buyer never received item" is a factual statement about the transaction. It's not accusatory, but if there were a pattern established, it would forewarn other sellers. However, I'd not have occasion to use it very often, since everything is shipped with insurance or some form of proof of shipping. I've noticed that most packages that go missing have neither, so who's to know whether the shipper shipped it or not?
I'm having more of a problem with people requesting partial refunds or replacements. Funny, but when I tell them that we don't do partial refunds, although I'll be happy to give them a full refund (including return shipping) once I've examined the item to be sure it has my mark, they suddenly decide the item is just fine. I feel a little hinky about leaving them a positive for fast payment, great communication, but what else can I say? I wonder how many of their other sellers have ended up refunding on an item that isn't the one they shipped.
posted on January 13, 2001 05:03:21 PM
Dottie said:
Nobody is "ENTITLED" to feedback.... it's EARNED one way or the other and it's completely voluntary.
Which is why when I received payment and it has cleared the bidder "earned" my respect and positive feedback. My "mailing" the item and making sure they get it has nothing to do with them earning anything else, so they've done their part. Hopefully, if I've packed carefully and shipped as promised I'll get a positive feedback in return. Simple for me.
posted on January 13, 2001 05:40:16 PM
flynn: Folks can particpate in the feedback forum any way they choose... or not.
I beleive that my trading partners have earned feedback:
A) 21 - 28 days have passed with NO PAYMENT
B) I receive notification that item has arrived and they are satisfied that our transaction is complete.
C) If there is a problem with the package (such as damage) - they have taken the package to the post office for inspection to initiate the Postal Insurance Claim... and upon notice to me that they have received any and all refunds due them.
I beleive (as a buyer) that my trading partner has earned feedback:
A) When the item arrives and I am satisfied that our transaction is complete.
B) Item does not arrive within 21 to 28 days of seller receiving payment.
C) Upon Receipt of Any refunds due me in the event of damage or loss.
SIMPLE.
But (as I said)... folks can participate in the feedback forum (or not) any way they choose.
- Dottie
[ edited by dottie on Jan 13, 2001 05:42 PM ]
posted on January 13, 2001 06:02:05 PMpickersangel: If the buyer had already made payment (i.e., paypal) the seller could claim the package was lost in the mail and refund the payment.
Sorry this wasn't clear in the original. I usually read over my posts three or four times before submitting, but what makes sense to me doesn't always make sense to others.
As to my comment about the feedback, unless the seller has proof that the package arrived (delivery confirmation), they have no business stating "package didn't arrive" in the feedback.
Last time I checked it was the sellers responsibility to get the package to the buyer. It is not the buyers responsibility to make sure the package arrives. Maybe when I leave feedback for the seller, I should also indicate the package never arrived, even if they refund the payment. Could be the seller who has a problem sending packages.
posted on January 13, 2001 06:52:49 PM
I leave feedback after the transaction is complete. Mostly because I tend to leave a big lump of feedback every couple of weeks or so, but anyway.....
I feel that the transaction is not complete till they have received their item. I do not ask them to leave feedback first, nor do I care if they do, however, I will wait a week or two to allow the package to get there and them to bring up any problems, then I leave feedback whether they contact me to say they received it or not.
I did have one buyer who refused to complete a transaction with me because I would not leave feedback the second she paid... she told me her feedback speaks for itself and directed me to it, both yahoo & ebay. Surprise!(NOT) She had a habit of receiving an item and then trying to extort a partial refund with the threat of negative feedback. She had good feedback as a seller, but as a buyer there were problems. The amusing part is that the deal was on Yahoo, where you can change a positive to a negative if you want, so it did her no good.
But I digress.... Every one does business in the way that works for them and I respect that. Just please don't try to force your way on me when you deal with me.
posted on January 13, 2001 06:53:04 PM
A while back I read comments from several posters that when they began insuring packages sent in the mail, USPS losses dropped considerably. I didn't believe it, but I tried it any way (via UPIC insurance). Lost packages went from five or six per month, to one every few months.
Another interesting factoid. A while back I got an email from a customer stating item didn't arrive. I sent a replacement. Eventually, the first package did come back to me. It's interesting because that was the ONLY lost package that ever made its way back to me. The other fifty simply disappeared, even though my return address was plainly visible under a thick layer of protective clear tape.
So let me spell it out for you in simple English: If a customer complains that the package never arrived, chances are the buyer is running a scam. Oh, poo-poo that if you want, but until you deal with thieves on a daily basis, you don't realize how frustrating it can be. Even if you don't think the majority of lost-package reports are lies, certainly many are.
The only person who can alert the next seller down the line is you. A simple note in the buyer's feedback file can prevent this kind of scam:
"Positive: Item lost in mail, replacement issued."
THAT is what feedback is for. Otherwise, you're giving your stamp of approval to a customer who is committing mail fraud.
posted on January 13, 2001 07:21:02 PM
What I do is...When I ship the item I email my buyer and say...Your item was shipped today, when it arrives please contact me and I will go and leave you feedback, and hope you will do the same.
So, There are those that contact me and those that don't so I leave feedback for only those that contact me.,because I feel that is when the complete transaction is over.
At the beginning I always left feedback on the day of shipping, well I left 500+ and only received 304 feedbacks, I think there are lots of buyers who woun't take the time out to contact you or leave you feedback, WHY, isn't feedback good for THEM also, as well as us Sellers. I feel that feedback is a very important part of buying and selling and you don't really know how the transaction is going to go until it has ended. So why would you leave feedback upon payment, that is only one part of the transaction, there are many more parts to be completed....Just my opion
posted on January 13, 2001 07:27:14 PM
I leave feedback on the day I ship.
It works for me. I've never had a problem in the years I've sold on eBay.
I package, I go to the post office, I mail, I come home, I leave feedback and I send out the shipping confirmation email with the tracking number.
I am real organized and I like everything to cross-check. In fact, since I don't hold checks and I've never had a bounced check my full procedure is:
1. generate packing slips,
2. generate shipping labels,
4. make out deposit slips,
4. enter direct and electronic deposits into the accounting system,
5. package,
6. ship,
7. leave feedback,
8. send shipping confirmation email with tracking number,
9. file my copy of the packing slips.
posted on January 13, 2001 09:16:42 PM
Lots of good stuff here. First, I just want to say my policy in no way is intended as feedback extortion. I never ever ask a buyer or seller to leave me feedback in any way, I don't even suggest it. I personally do not appreciate it when someone asks for feedback in any way.
I was starting to think my method was in the minority actually, so I'm glad to see there are others who have a similar view. I still don't see anything wrong with putting that a seller did not receive an item in their feedback. I didn't say it would be a neg, and as long as they handled it well, it would be a positive, but I think it's important to put it in there so folks can see if a pattern is developing. Any buyer who has had bad luck more than once or twice is something you'd want to be leery of (and make sure to insure/track their shipment). I would certainly appreciate if other sellers do the same. Any buyer who is straight up should not have a problem with a positive comment along the lines of "Item I shipped got lost in shipment, worked well with me to resolve". Why is that a bad feedback? Say someone has a rating of 10 but two of their items were "lost"? Wouldn't you start to suspect something? I would certainly be more careful with that buyer and make sure to get delivery confirmation and insurance on the package ...
posted on January 13, 2001 09:39:05 PMBeckles, I assume you would have no problems if buyers also leave feedback for sellers that state the item was lost in the mail. That way those of us who are buyers can decide if there is a pattern with a seller not getting packages to their buyers.
Might be a good idea to demand insurance if a seller can't get packages to their buyers, since it is the sellers responsiblility to get the item to the buyer.
posted on January 14, 2001 05:50:45 AM
I have a question for those sellers who leave feedback when the "transaction is complete"; and/or buyer leaves it first.
If you really did screw up big time, and the buyer did leave you a justifiable neg, would you give the buyer a positive??
posted on January 14, 2001 08:01:36 AM
As a seller, I leave feedback when payment is received. I have only gotten burned on this a few times (bounced checks) in the last 3 years.
As a buyer, I leave feedback the moment the item arrives and is as described/in good condition.
I have never had to leave a neg for a seller (knock wood). I check feedback thoroughly before bidding, and ask questions if the desription of an item is not clear.
I have left negs for buyers who have not made payment in 30+ days. I don't get emotional about it, just state the closing date of the auction and the current date and that payment has not been received. I only file negs after I have tried multiple "reminder" emails and an NPB alert without results.
posted on January 14, 2001 08:03:08 AM
If you really did screw up big time, and the buyer did leave you a justifiable neg, would you give the buyer a positive??
Yes I would leave the buyer a negative. I dont know what kind of "screw up" you are talking about, but if I offered to send a replacement, or refund and the buyer still gives me a neg, then I would be forced to leave the buyer one.
and it becomes a big stink! 