posted on January 13, 2001 07:26:08 PM
I like the idea of politely stating that it's against eBay's regulations to sell outside the auction. Sometimes I have a limited supply of something and I'm sure I'd get a good price if I auctioned it.
On the the other hand, if an auction just ended, and the item got a really high price, and I have more, the person inquiring usually offers to match or beat the high bid if I have any more to sell.
And, gravid, you have a point there, with the example of the newspaper classified ad. I guess eBay got me so paranoid (much to their delight, I'm sure).
posted on January 13, 2001 07:35:37 PM
If you want to keep nonwinners and nonbidders from knowing email addresses of your bidders you already have that option avaible now!! It is called private auction, only you the seller know who is bidding and no one else. So you see if you were to use the features avaible right now you do not need a whole lot of more changes to keep others from emails of bidders.
posted on January 13, 2001 07:40:32 PM
I think Reddeer's pretty much got the handle on this one. If a seller is contacted via email, I see no specific prohibition against making a sale. eBay can't legislate our off-site business, though they can limit use of emails gleaned from their site. I don't have a problem with that. Put simply, the buyer is not allowed to contact you. (This could be considered spam only by the greatest stretch of imagination, but there it is.) As a seller, you can sell to anyone who contacts you.
Buyer contacting seller to buy off-eBay is specifically prohibited here (under Misc. Offenses):
I don't think a sting operation would work, because while the seller may sell to anyone, a buyer is specifically prohibited from contacting a seller regarding a listed item. Trying to trap a seller this way would only result in problems for the buyer.
If you do receive an email inquiry, and you're not sure of your position, you can respond with the following:
"Would you like more information regarding this item?"
posted on January 13, 2001 07:56:05 PM
I guess technically we're not supposed to sell to people contacting us, but in reality, this sort of thing happens all the time.
As mentioned earlier, eBay has better things to do than try and find sellers doing this, although I've heard they sometimes pose as sellers to see if you would sell off eBay.
Twinsoft, I like your idea of asking if they'd like more information, although that's not totally foolproof. Also, I just thought, we could check the bid history, if their email is their user ID, or closely resembles it, we can be sure they are a ligitmate buyer.
posted on January 13, 2001 08:10:24 PM"I guess technically we're not supposed to sell to people contacting us."
How do you figure that?
"Also, I just thought, we could check the bid history, if their email is their user ID, or closely resembles it, we can be sure they are a ligitmate buyer."
What, pray tell, is a 'legitimate buyer?'
I don't mean to be picking on you, but those comments such as, "I sell on eBay, so I'm not allowed to sell anywhere else" are just plain crazy IMHO. Good if we could hammer out some misconceptions.
eBay's prohibitions are quite specific, and rules regarding seller's responses to inquiries are conspicuously absent. It is unfortunate that among all their blustering about spam and fee avoidance, eBay has failed to say what a seller IS allowed to do. Sad that eBay has stooped to the level of intimidating its customers to prevent them from making fair, clean and legal sales.
Great that we have such a forum where we can check and recheck all the information that comes up.
posted on January 13, 2001 08:22:18 PM
EBay has been successful at getting me paranoid about selling to anyone but the high bidder. In an ideal world, they would like us to list the item, rather than make a direct sale, and now with "Buy It Now" it's easy.
I have some auctions ending tomorrow, and some of the bidding is getting fierce already. Every time I have one of these items up for auction (every 6 to 8 weeks, I don't want to flood the market, you know), I almost always get an under-bidder or a watcher email me to offer to buy if the high bidder falls through, or ask if I have another.
I think if I get a request like that this weekend, I'll go ahead and sell to them. No trouble placing another ad, no listing or FV fees, hardly any extra trouble. That's what eBay doesn't like, they're missing out. I'm sure they would prefer I list it with BIN or as a 3 day auction, but I won't do it!
As for a legtimate buyer, I meant if they were a bidder, we could probably be certain they're not an eBay employee posing as a bidder, trying to set us up, that's what I was worried about. If they pay me for the item, they're a legitmate buyer with me!
The bidders excuses were "wrong bid", and "changed my mind". Below is the email I got from safeharbor, and from now on I am turning in all bid retractors!!
Hello,
Thank you for taking the time to contact us with this information. We
have reviewed the information that you have provided and wanted to let
you know that we have suspended the members that you alerted us to.
I would like to thank you for your help in keeping eBay a fun and safe
place to trade.
Regards,
*****
eBay SafeHarbor
Investigations Team
______________________________
eBay
Your Personal Trading Community (tm)
posted on January 13, 2001 08:53:21 PM
motive8, if a buyer contacts you, that's a violation of eBay's rules, but it's the buyer's problem, not yours. And I agree, I would sell to that bidder if they asked.
I seriously doubt eBay has any interest in conducting sting operations. They'd be breaking their own rules, and coming up empty-handed. Also, I can just imagine how it would play out in the press. eBay would be too busy defending themselves against accusations of entrapement and restraint of trade. Besides, with a million auctions ending every day, random stings would be impractical.
posted on January 13, 2001 09:10:06 PM
twinsoft, I suppose if it's the buyer that would suffer the repercussions, and not me, that's fine. I know that sounds a bit selfish, but I, like any seller, would like to make as many sales as possible.
Actually, I wouldn't want to see the buyer get NARUed or temporarily suspended, but if someone has to get in trouble it would be the buyer, and hopfully not the seller too.
I would never rat out a buyer for contacting me, in fact, I encourage it! Who wouldn't?
posted on January 13, 2001 09:58:50 PM
ebay has busted me with this trick a year back! I had an e-mail from a webtv address asking if he could buy off ebay because he was not a part of ebay. I said sure why not I have more, I sent the address for mailing and he replied with my address minus one number stating "the post office says this address is no good" WOW! I was a little freaked to see someone would go that far over a $20 item... I had a bad feeling but continued to re-send the correct address. NEXT! I had 47 items with 22 hours left in the auctions and BOOM! ebay takes all of them down, sent a BS letter saying I was suspended... I knew that email from the webtv address was BS and wrote to the address once a week since and never had a reply.
Every person I know of that sells on ebay daily will make offers to some lost bidders - sounds like a crap shoot! If you have a reserve item of $10K and a bidder bids as high as $9K WHY should you not be able to cut the rest of the deal off ebay? You pay to list, feature, bold, etc... to much control is in the hands of the pit boss!
I spend $500 a month on ebay - a side deal here and there should not be worth a suspention. I don't get it, they rather lose $500 a month from someone to make a point! sounds like a control thing to me.
ebay = eGotti
posted on January 13, 2001 10:01:44 PM
EBAY IS ONLY A VENUE
If I list something on ebay and it does not sell I have every right to sell my item where ever I see fit !
Ebay is a site which I can use to sell an item. If my item does not sell I can use another website to sell it or the newspaper or any venue I want to use.
Ebay has no control of my item what so ever. I purchased the item and it is MINE until I sell it.
Until ebay starts buying items for me to sell, they are not going to tell me what I can do with MY items !
posted on January 13, 2001 10:18:53 PM
xghzqtk, thanks for the insight. It was a situation like that I was worried about.
I'm not sure if eBay is still doing that, and like yo say it's a crap shoot.
Now I'm wondering if it's worth taking that chance. It was almost like they were giving you a second chance, you still had the opportunity to change your mind.
Maybe if a potential buyer emails back about something, I'll say, "you know, I just realized, I shouldn't be doing this, how about I list it with BIN, then the purchase is protected by eBay, and we can each post positive feedback to each other."
But, I think the chances of that happening are not very likely, especially since eBay has grown quite a bit in the last year, I doubt they hired more staff to cope with the growth.
posted on January 13, 2001 10:24:36 PMcix, "Ebay has no control of my item what so ever. I purchased the item and it is MINE until I sell it."
Yes, absolutely. But the EMAIL ADDRESSES you use to contact other parties come from eBay. eBay lets you use their service, and provides you with email addresses of your winners. eBay does NOT provide you with email addresses so you can spam other users, cut eBay out of the deal, and bottom line, you agree not to do that when you use eBay's service.
I find it ironic that so many people claim, "eBay can't tell me what to do" when in fact (1) their business depends on eBay, and (2) they are in effect stealing from eBay and other honest sellers. eBay can and does make the rules. I say this from the perspective of a person who has butted heads many times with eBay support and policy.
xghzqtk, excuse my bluntness but I don't believe your story. If true, you're not telling everything. At any rate, comments like, "Every person I know of that sells on ebay daily will make offers to some lost bidders...." wreck your credibility. You do make a strong case for eBay's new rules regarding fee avoidance.
posted on January 13, 2001 10:40:15 PM
It's a catch-22. Do we go ahead and do it, with minimal chances of getting caught, or not take any chances.
I'm willing to bet most people make extra sales, some probably not knowing they are breaking the rules.
About eBay providing the email addresses, that's why I think it's wrong, becuase if it weren't for eBay, the buyer and seller would not have been able to connect.
Yes, the items belong to the sellers, but it appears it is in violation of a rarely enforced rule. I know the temptation is incredible.
posted on January 13, 2001 11:08:21 PM
Years ago, when I worked in Silicon Valley, the "restraint of trade" law was often tested. An employment candidate who was sent on an interview with a company- was forced to sign an agreement that they would not accept other employment "indirectly" resulting from the agency's efforts. To my knowledge, when it was ever tested-- the courts always referred to it as "restraint of trade" tactics.
Quite simply, I'm comparing the above to
this "offline" threat. It is an OLD game and it has NEVER been able to fly in a court of law. Any decent lawyer sees "restraint of trade" written all over it.
Once your "paid" obligation with ebay is finished - there is no further obligation regarding that item.
Ebay just figures if they could scare maybe 20% of the sellers- it would be worth the trouble. Frankly, I find it quite juvenile! Even our own government can't control the percent of REAL skimming, moonlighting, tax avoidance, etc. I'm supposed to be scared of Ebay? They'll never take me alive!!!!!
posted on January 14, 2001 09:57:29 AM
xghzaqtk: eBay did not perform some kind of sting operation on you. Your buyer probably got spooked (or maybe it was one of your competitors on the site attempting to cause you some trouble) and turned you in for not having the right contact information.... SOMETHING (I dunno)... but your auctions were not ended due to the fact that you had agreed to trade with an "Undercover eBay Buyer".
Besides, until the RECENT "clarification", it wasn't even officially against the rules for a BUYER to contact a seller.
motive8: regarding your post on 12/13/2001 @ 06:24:15....
"what about all those people who use their email address as the ID? EBay would have to make all those people pick new IDs..."
Believe me, the BIG BROTHERS.. er, uhm.. I mean, the FOLKS at eBay have at least THOUGHT about that! *sigh*
ALSO (motive8 in your post on 12/13/2k1 @06:44:19 you state:
"...but when the buyer contacts the seller..."
HELLO?!?!? This WON'T happen anymore if your eMail address is NOT AVAILABLE to them! Understand???
Twinsoft: Regarding your post on 12/13/2k1 @ 10:24:36;
I AGREE 100% - you've hit the nail right on the head.
gravid: your post on 12/13/2k1 @ 07:15:11;
"...If someone seeing a transaction contacts me..."
AGAIN... It WON'T HAPPEN "IF" eBay changes the behavior of eMail links so that they are not obtainable UNLESS you are related by a CURRENTLY running auction as a Bidder & Seller OR in a recently ENDED auction as the WINNER only and the SELLER.
In this (hypothetical?) solution for protecting eBay users PRIVACY and relieving us of the burden of SPAM from our eBay trading PEERS... (NOT unsolicited contact via Telemarketing or Direct Mail if your Preference Notifications were reset to "YES" by eBay without your knowledge so that THEIR partners can "legally" SPAM you)
Contact from INTERESTED potential Buyers WILL NOT be made due to:
A) eBay has recently "clarified" within their PRIVACY & SPAM protection guidelnes that it is also (now) AGAINST THE RULES for BIDDERS to contact sellers with offers to purchase.
b) They won't be able to retrieve your eMail address if they are not already CURRENTLY TRANSACTION RELATED or Recently High Bidder of one or more of your auctions.
Note: UNLESS you provide a LIVE eMAIL LINK on all of your listings... and/or UNTIL "Big Brother" eBay makes THAT against the rules too!
NOW... I've never been one to "GrandStand" or "let the cat out of the bag" where eBay is concerned, but the information HAS already been posted to the Announcement Board (at various times) and anyone paying CLOSE ENOUGH ATTENTION could figure this out for themselves, but I will try to help....
HERE are a couple of posts to the eBay announcement board on 12/27 regarding CHANGES TO DISPLAYING EMAIL ADDRESSES and then further clarificatoin on the FEE AVOIDANCE POLICY:
Several weeks ago, we announced changes to the “Display Email Address When Viewing User ID” sign-in preference in My eBay. At that time, we changed the feature such that only those users involved in transactions would see email addresses next to User IDs, except on active auction pages. Email addresses will now be displayed next to User IDs on the following pages for those who are signed in and have the preference set:
* “See item details” pages under the Bidding/Watching and Selling tabs in My eBay:
- Under the Bidding/Watching tab, you will see the seller’s email address on closed auction pages in which you were the winning bidder.
- Under the Selling tab, you will see the email address of the winning bidder(s) on auction pages for which there was a winning bidder(s).
* Bidder Search: If you are conducting a search on yourself, you will see email addresses next to the sellers whose auctions are actively running or whose auctions you have won.
* “Leave Feedback About an eBay User” page under the “Feedback Forum” tab of the Services Navigation Bar: You will see the email address (and feedback rating and symbol) next to the User IDs of those members for whom you can leave feedback.
We hope these changes enhance your trading experience.
Last week we posted information about Spam and Fee Avoidance policy changes and would like to provide clarification based on questions that some members have posed (specifically regarding the Fee Avoidance policy changes).
We realize that you establish relationships with other members through eBay and may complete future transactions based upon those relationships. However, the use of eBay contact information to enable a transaction outside of eBay, is not condoned and is a violation of our User Agreement.
Our policies on Spam and Fee Avoidance are designed to enhance and protect the eBay marketplace for all members. The use of eBay resources - contact information, the listing, or any eBay feature - to complete a transaction without paying the appropriate eBay fees is not in the best interest of our community or of our business. Additionally, it may result in the perception that the transaction is covered by eBay services such as insurance and Feedback, when these services do not apply.
The clarifications are as follows (these clarifications will be reflected in the on-site policies by the end of the week):
* Using member contact information obtained from eBay or using any eBay feature to offer to sell any listed item outside of eBay
* Canceling a listing to sell the item to anyone who contacted the seller through eBay, or became aware of the item through eBay
* Ending a listing early to sell the item at a higher price to the winning bidder
* Using member contact information obtained from eBay or using any eBay feature to offer to sell an item outside of eBay to any of your bidders in a Reserve Not Met listing
* Using member contact information obtained from eBay or using any eBay feature to sell duplicate or additional merchandise outside of eBay to underbidders
* Listing items in a manner that allows circumvention of eBay fees (for more information please see http://pages.ebay.com/help/community/png-list.html)
Notes:
* Selling to the underbidder in a Non-Paying Bidder situation is still permitted. However, this transaction is not covered by services such as insurance or Feedback.
* Member contact information refers to name, email address or phone number.
Regards,
eBay
BUT DO YOU REMEMBER the post on "SHILL BIDDING PREVENTION ON EBAY" that was posted nearly 2 weeks previously?
This is an update on eBay’s Shill Bidding Prevention efforts.
Shill bidding is the deliberate placing of bids to artificially raise the price of an item. This is a violation of the eBay User Agreement, and could potentially be prosecuted as a criminal act. Shill bidding is wrong because it artificially raises the price of an item and encourages buyers to pay more than the true market price for the item. Since shill bidding involves using a separate User ID, a false impression that another bidder is interested in the item and willing to pay more for it is created. This is unfair and could even be illegal.
We do not tolerate shill bidding and we enforce this policy stringently. In most cases, a member who is confirmed to have shill bid will be suspended for 30 days on the first offense. Subsequent violations will result in an indefinite suspension. We also cooperate fully with any law enforcement inquiry into shill bidding on eBay.
eBay developed the industry's first shill bidding detection tool in early 1999 as a way to analyze bidding patterns over multiple listings. Since then we have also implemented other sophisticated mechanisms. These tools analyze listings and registration data for patterns indicative of shill bidding and allow our Safe Harbor group to detect and act on violations. It is also used in the investigation of reports that are sent to the Safe Harbor by members.
We have also revised Bid History and Bidder Search to allow members to understand bidding patterns more efficiently. This was accomplished by displaying and providing the ability to sort Bidder Search by the seller ID. We believe that this will help in the detection of questionable patterns.
Changes under consideration include enhanced member verification and limits to the number of accounts per member. These will help to reduce anonymity on the site and related concerns like shill bidding. These significant, more impactful changes are carefully being planned to ensure maximum effectiveness with minimal community disruption.
Finally, we will shortly begin randomly auditing member account activity and act on detected violations.
Although shill bidding on eBay occurs in only a small fraction of listings, it is a very important issue as it creates barriers to success for members and eBay. We will continue to invest in systems and resources to address shill bidding and other issues that undermine trust and safety.
Pay particularly close attention to "...Finally, we will shortly begin randomly auditing member account activity and act on detected violations."
We should be asking HOW do they intend to randomly audit member account activity!?! But instead, we are behaving calmly... just like FROGS in slowly boiling water!
posted on January 14, 2001 11:36:02 AM Pay particularly close attention to "...Finally, we will shortly begin randomly auditing member account activity and act on detected violations."
We should be asking HOW do they intend to randomly audit member account activity!?! But instead, we are behaving calmly... just like FROGS in slowly boiling water!
Dottie, I think if you go to this url, it is a recent news report about the new technology developed that eBay will be using
They'll never take me alive!!!!!
