posted on January 15, 2001 05:33:57 AM
igolf: I see you've removed your posts to this thread! Gee, I Wonder why?!?
But your comment yesterday that I am obviously upset with eBay and there is nothing anyone in here can say to change that is extremely close to the mark! (and it is a RARE thing indeed, that I become SO DISenchanted with the PTB at eBay that it would motivate me to be SO FRANK in the public forums). I've voiced to the PTB that I am disgusted with their plans for the issue of SPAM and OFF SITE TRADES (the path they are currently taking with it) and that it gets NO SUPPORT FROM ME!
When it all "hits the fan" I surely do NOT want my buying and selling peers to think for one moment that I was in ANY WAY involved or agreed with this particular plan.
gravid: LOL
But there's one little problem with your live auctioneer analogy.... if the potential buyer contacts you a week or two later (because you handed him your phone number DURING THE AUCTION and he kept it), I guess that would be fine. But they probably wouldn't call up the auctioneer and say, "Hey... remember that feller in here last week with the (whatchyamacallit) you auctioned off for him?... I didn't bid on it 'cuz folks were all over that one and I didn't want to just drive the price up, BUT.... could you give me his telephone number (way to contact him) so I can call him up to see if he might have another one he'd be interested in selling me?"
If the fella with the whatchyamacallit is a regular patron for the auctioneer, I doubt that he'd want to risk losing the opportunity to sell more whatchyamacallit's on auction in the future by helping the buyer make direct contact on a private basis.
I think that is (in part) what's going on with eBay. They realize that this takes place and they have made it officially against the rules (with the exception of NPB) and are making changes to the site that are in line with the "clarification" on SPAM & OFF SITE TRADES. I don't think eBay wants to give out the telephone numbers (eMail addresses) of sellers to potential buyers after the auction, since it would seem that WATCHERS, UnderBidders & even NON BIDDERS tend to make private contact with offers to purchase rather than drive the ending values up by participating in the auction. (eBay benefits too when FVF are higher)
This change will be inconvenient for buyers and sellers, but (I guess) understandable. HOWEVER, it is not the only "solution" in the works for protecting our PRIVACY (which I find to be a huge JOKE, since eBay has ADDED Telemarketing and Direct Mail to the preference page and then set the defaults for millions of users to "YES" so - I suspect - they can sell our private info out the back door for us to receive SPAM over the telephone and in our mailboxes) where eBay has decided that eBay will determine what is appropriate SPAM to protect us from.
eBay WILL monitor your activity while using that "VENUE"... your eMail communications WILL originate from eBay's servers... and buyers & sellers WILL obey the rules regarding SPAM and OFF SITE TRADING or risk losing their ability to communitcate with ANY members - thus lose their ability to trade.
I wonder... if I receive a Telemarketing Call or Direct Mail with a special offer... would I be violating eBays rules if I accepted? ...since the party contacting me received my PRIVATE REAL WORLD CONTACT INFORMATION from eBay!!!? (nope - 'cuz that's different *sigh*)
eBay is attempting to burn the candles at BOTH ENDS, folks.
GO check your Preferences to see if they've ADDED Telemarketing and Direct Mail to your account and set the default to "YES" for you to receive such SPAM... and THEN, come back here to tell us all how concerned eBay is about PROTECTING YOUR PRIVACY regarding Spam and Off Site Trades!!
posted on January 15, 2001 07:54:07 AM
In the coming months, as eBay slowly cranks up the heat on us froggies, one new rule and policy at a time, it will become evident that our freedom to trade openly and honestly is NOT what eBay is interested in.
Money is what eBay is interested in and controling as much of what we do as possible.
During my time in voices 1, I suggested to eBay that their own stated belief that people are basically honest, was correct. That most people know when they should be paying eBay for sales outside the auction process and that if given a simple, straightforward way of doing it, they would. In all fairness, some of the PTB inside eBay actually seriously considered trusting people to voluntarily pay those outside the auction fees.
Unfortunately, eBay's legal team laughed at the idea. The lawyers (and once again, in all fairness I don't know if ALL the lawyers poo- pooed the idea) didn't believe for a minute that people are basically honest. There were also legal concerns about eBay's potential liability for these outside sales. (no insurance) and there were engineering concerns about how to incorporate such a voluntary system. The bottom line is, rather than actually working together to come up with solutions more in line with eBay's stated beliefs, eBay decided it made more sense to just control everything. To assume that people can't be trusted and to incorporate rules and policies using the words "spam", "safety", "privacy" and "fee avoidance" in a series of well orchestrated stages, (turning up the heat on Dotties frogs,....US) in order to gain control over it's members rather than enabling them.
As these steps unfold, and our ability to trade freely disappears, there's one thing that eBay didn't count on. HONESTY. People really are basically honest. eBay actually had it right, but they didn't believe it themselves.
So, even though eBay has carefully planned this whole thing with it's maze of "spam", "safety" and "privacy" rules for our "own protection", HONESTY is something eBay can't stop.
By voluntarily paying fees, it neutralizes the "fee avoidance" part of all this. It may not be the whole answer but it's a start and it's something eBay hadn't counted on.
posted on January 15, 2001 08:50:10 AM
Greetings Earthlings
RM, I don't think that sending money to the address that was given earlier would in effect pay for any off ebay fees, even if you sent along a note with an accounting of the transaction. That address is where you send money to put in your account (if you don't normally use a credit card to pay for your activity) that ebay deducts money from when you incur a fee of any kind. I believe the key factor is that all fee's that ebay takes has to have an auction number associated with it. I do not have a credit card on file with ebay and maintain my account with money orders via the address that was given. I tried to pay for an off ebay sale years ago and they replied that they could not process a fee without an auction number to associate it with. As I recall they even sort of gave me their blessing (or at least the employee that contacted me did) of course back then they didn't seem to mind this type of activity and even seemed to condone it. I don't know if you know it but even if you have zero dollars in you account, ebay allows you $25 dollars in credit to proceed with transactions. with your suggestion, you wouldn't even have to send them money, just a note to tell them to deduct XX dollars from your account, because thats all that will happen if you send any money to that address, that is, it will be put into YOUR account, not theirs. Even with a note of explanation that you want them to take it for whatever reason, I don't think they would take the money, they would just put it in your account. Not to mention you would have just alerted them that you are breaking their rules about off ebay sales.
This is how I've come to understand it, perhaps I'm wrong.
posted on January 15, 2001 08:54:35 AM
Look, I sell "things" on my own web site. Ebay allows me to auction them if I start the bid at Less than my website price. So I sell an item on ebay occasionally.
Now, am I thereafter prevented from selling any more from my web site? Must I thereafter sell them on ebay only? If the thing gets no bids on ebay, am I prohibited from ever selling any from my site? Must I refuse to sell another one to someone who saw my site link in my ebay auction, went there and wants to buy?
The answer to all of these is NO! So likewise if you have two "things", auction one, and an underbidder asks if you have another one for sale, you can certainly say Yes and sell it to him.
The new ebay "rules" are solely due to ebay going public and having to increase the bottom line each quarter to maintain and increase their stock price. It's a basic evil of going public.
My business is MY business, not ebays. I will simply ignore their new rules.
posted on January 15, 2001 08:59:22 AMdottie &/or RM...
Do you believe it's possible eBay plans to ban us from having an email link in our auctions? I've always had one, and use it for my personal gallery as well. What a pain it would be, if they disallow it.
I really hate the idea of anyone else reading my mail, as well...
Yes, I understand what you are saying and you may be correct. What I'm saying is, it's up to eBay how they handle the money. If eBay chooses to reject it, at least they can't say it's fee avoidance and as I said before, eBay has also accepted these payments in the past so their claim that they can't deal with them doesn't hold water.
I also agree that eBay may find policy violations in even an attempt to pay. This is also eBay's decision to make. The time is coming when people will be put out of business by eBay, simply for trying to conduct business openly and freely. When that time comes, people will need every advantage they can get.
The mental image of the doofus giant (from jack and the beanstalk) with one finger on the "suspension for fee avoidance" button while the other hand shakes it's finger "no, we can't accept your payment", isn't going to play well in the press, to the stockholders or in the courts.
I can tell you that the idea of disallowing email links in item listings has been discussed. Whether eBay would actually do it or not, I honestly don't know.
posted on January 15, 2001 09:55:43 AM
Thanks, dottie & RM...
Damn. I was afraid of that. EBay putting their nose into my correspondence would probably do it for me. There's a limit to everyone's tolerance, and I think that's mine.
I think I understand that your saying that at the worst there is now at least a record of an attempt to pay whats due and at best they will accept it ("Accept" meaning taking your money and putting it in their bank as a fee and not just adding that payment to your account). However, if it does arouse their attention to what they may think is breaking their rules, to me, its just not worth the possible suspension of my income and the ensuing fight to prove my case. If I'm going to play Russian roulette, I don't think I'd want to use ebays gun, they tend to cheat. I'd rather take my chances with the customers.
If your desire is to pay the fees and be above board, why not just list the identicle items, the description and pictures are already done. Granted, it is a drag to wait another week or 5 days when you know you could have had a few quick trades.
I agree, that would be it for me too. I'm tolerant, fairminded and understanding, but my privacy, or perception of it, is paramount to me. They would be losing exactly the kind of decent seller that I would think they want to encourage to stay. Then again that kind of self defeating corporate practice seems to be the American standard. sigh.
Yes, I agree with you for the most part. Everyone should do what he or shes feels is right or safe. It's an individual dicision.
There's principle here though and it's not always simply a matter of selling an identical item. What if the item isn't identical but I get a chance to sell it anyway? The point is, all kinds of business deals can happen and it should be my choice to nail down the sale when the opportunity arises. It's my right to conduct my business in my own way as long as I pay eBay their fair share.
You may be an exception to what ebay is trying to achieve (which bottomline, I'm sure is $$$ ). Corporations don't generally worry too much about the fate of the exceptions when they sic their dogs on some agenda. If you do this, please let us know how it goes and whatever they might comment to you.
Well, maybe I'm an exception I don't know about that. I would find it hard to believe that there aren't lots of other folks out there sending in their voluntary fees to eBay or at least inquiring about doing it. There are millions of eBay members and I believe that the vast majority of them are honest and trustworthy.
posted on January 15, 2001 12:34:48 PM
Toke - that is the point where you change your user ID BACK to your email addy IF you still want to keep supporting ebaY's increasingly fascist way of doing business.
And if you think my use of the word fascist is extreme, you need to go read a little history about how the Nazi fascist movement was able to gain power and control of their populace - dividing and destroying community, controlling communication between community members, sowing distrust and encouraging reporting of "violations", encouraging those with the perpensity to report to CREATE situations where folks are entrapped into what is now a "violation", having rules that are interpreted differently by different people in positions of authority who are able to hand out punishment - remember, the very financial survival of some folks are based on their ebaY sales - this is serious business! - Rosalinda
TAGnotes - daily email synopsis about the Online Auction Industry http://www.topica.com/lists/tagnotes
posted on January 15, 2001 01:28:28 PM
Hi Rosalinda,
Unfortunately, I agree with much of what you said. Believe it or not, I'm still a big eBay fan and I've met a lot of really fine people there. I'm very unhappy about the direction I see eBay taking and even the fair, open minded, forward thinking eBay folks that are still there, don't seem to have enough influence over the power-grabbing, clown shoe wearing, frog boilers, to stop what's happening. I'm afraid eBay is letting the small minority of problem users AND problem eBay leaders, screw up the site for everyone. I'm not saying that there are easy solutions for all of the problems. I'm just saying that eBay is taking the authoritarian approach rather than showing some trust and belief in their members and fully exploring all of their options.
P.S. BTW toke, if you're thinking about changing your user I.D. to your email address, I'd suggest doing it sooner rather than later.
posted on January 15, 2001 02:19:32 PM
Sheesh Ray, you are making my hair stand on end and giving me even worse than normal ebaY heebie jeebies, with your words to the wise!!!!!
When the REALITY becomes worse than MY paranoid imaginings and predictions, then we are in REAL trouble!
Yahoo's listing fees are sounding better all the time!
eBay has learned a few things over the years and one of the things they've learned is, not to upset everyone all at once. The "only a dollar" reserve price penalty fee was one of those lessons.
eBay is now making changes in slower stages. One step at a time. So, by the time people put it all together and realize what happened, it'll be too late. At least this is how eBay hopes it will go.
The sad part is, they will probably be right.
Oh well, it's not the end of the world and business will go on but eBay will be a very different place than it's founders intended it to be. All just my opinion of course.
posted on January 15, 2001 03:20:27 PM
RB - I had an offer to pay situation recently .
I took some friends to dinner at an Italian restaurant were I am a regular and discovered I did not have my wallet with me so when I went to the cash register I told them I don't have my wallet with me but I have my check book so I can still pay you. The cashier said "Oh no we don't accept checks." I said "F
ine with me thanks for dinner." and walked out. The owner came out the door after me saying "We'll take it! We'll take it!"
posted on January 15, 2001 04:28:11 PM
"Oh well, it's not the end of the world and business will go on but eBay will be a very different place than it's founders intended it to be."
And those who find ebay to be a profitable way to conduct business will continue to do so by adapting to the changing landscape. And those who come along after the changes will find nothing wrong...they will accept it and structure their business around the then current rules.
Someone mentioned that the extra $10 or $20 meant a lot to them but was a drop in the bucket to ebay...but a bucket is filled with lots of "drops". If the average off ebay sale loses ebay $3 and there are 5 million of these every month, that is $180 million that is not in ebay's pocket every year. No longer a "drop"!
Dottie...yes, I would say is IS all about MONEY to ebay. But isn't that what it really is all about for US too? We want to keep the income generated by what we see as our efforts and investment...ebay wants to keep the income generated by what they see as their efforts and investments...unfortunately these two efforts overlap significantly. Without them we don't have the contacts that generate our sales.
Ray...changing ones id to include their email address won't wotk. If ebay takes away email links in auctions they will no doubt also make it mandatory that everyone have a "handle" only.
I agree that this whole thing is downright DUMB...but...
It's kinda the chicken and egg thing...which comes first? Does someone open a new "marketplace", get tenants and then decide the policies and proceedures of the marketplace based on what the current tenants want...or does one open a new "marketplace" with rules and policies in place and the possible tenants decide if this marketplace, with it's rules in place are acceptable to them (and if not they move on to one which has policies they can live with)?
Does a business decide what path they want to take, or do the customers make the decisions and the business has to implement what the customer demands? From many of the discussions I have seen here at AW I think there are many of US who believe WE set our business practices NOT the customer...we seem to get a bit testy when a customer says "you are SUPPOSED to do it this way because I as the customer am 'always right'"
A business does try to satisfy the individuals that they want as their customer base...but ultimately the businesses own profitability is the final reason for their policies...even if that means their customer base may change.
I guess what I'm trying to say is...we are not going to change this path ebay is on. For wahtever reason (and the reason is truely immaterial to us), this is what ebay intends to do. They have the right. We have the right to learn to adapt to the new ebay...or we can exercise another right and move on to another venue (off or on the internet).
Ebay really owes us nothing and we owe them nothing...it's just a business arrangement that is currently beneficial to each, but as soon as one partner in this arrangement finds it is no longer beneficial that partner has the right (and personal obligation) to do what needs to be done to maintain their own profitability.
Yes, I agree that if eBay bans email links in auction listings they will most likely also ban email handles as well. BUT they may not do it all at one time. One step at a time you know.
I also agree that folks will learn to "adapt" to whatever eBay becomes or they will go elsewhere. So, for anyone wishing to "adapt" to the new "fee avoidance" policies put this idea of voluntarily paying fees in your tool box for your possible future "adaptation" needs.
posted on January 15, 2001 05:43:22 PM
Amy: SO TRUE!! *smile*
Ya know, I was thinking about listing on Yahoo! until they announced their new fees recently... but then when I found out the other day that eBay is moving forward with some of their own plans.... I've RECONSIDERED my decision to not list at Yahoo!
When we return from our trip to Thailand at the end of February, I WILL be listing items at Yahoo! and a few other sites in addition to eBay. (I'm considering Amazon and Dutchbid as well as some others)
eBay will no longer carry 100% of my listings. I suspect that in the coming weeks and months, other sellers will decide to do the same thing.... TRULY DIVERSIFY. (This would be good for everyone)
We also have a SiamThings.com website, and I will be sure to include links to that from all auction sites and encourage eMail contact before, during and after all auctions.
I will have several I.D.s - so that I do not risk harrassment from eBay or my selling competitors... in the event the rules keep changing and I just can't keep up with them! LOL
AND... I will conduct searches on other auction sites FIRST, for items I wish to purchase.
This will not stop eBay from making changes that I believe are not in the best interest of their membership, but it WILL expand MY OWN ability have fun while making some money... less and LESS dependant on what eBay does or doesn't do. (Boy Howdy... If I were depending upon eBay sales for my income... I'd really be furious and SCARED!!)Luckily, it is NOT going to be my problem.
By shopping on other sites FIRST, it WILL support other sellers who are attempting to grow their businesses beyond eBays greedy pockets, and that will make ME feel good.
AND... if most sellers and bidders on eBay don't care about the changes that eBay will be making... that DEFINITELY relieves me of much burden that I've been carrying around for several months now.
I didn't realize that either it's too late to save the frogs from boiling.... OR they don't want to be saved. LOL
My conscience is clear though... I DID TRY! *smile*
posted on January 15, 2001 06:43:28 PM
".. OR they don't want to be saved. LOL"
OR they don't need to be saved because they are in no danger!
I think many, many users will not be unhappy with these new policies...I think many will welcome them!
I keep thinking of various discussions I have seen here at AW and on the ebay boards. The discussions about selling to the underbidders...the discussions where many say that to sell to one's underbidders is unfair to the other ebay sellers because it is taking the customer who would bought on their auctions and who now won't because the other seller got to them first. The same argument that is presented about contacting the underbidders on another's closed auction.
I agree ebay is passing up a great revenue stream by NOT instituting some type of ON EBAY after auction sales ability. But I also think that many, many sellers will not feel any adverse reactions if they are restricted in the type of off ebay transactions...and I think there will be a large number of sellers who will prefer it this new way.
There may be plenty of froggies who WANT the water to be boiling...they don't like the cold water. And there may be many more froggies who develop a very thick skin and heat tolerance and will thrive in the new hotter environment. Not ALL froggies will perish as the water starts to boil! And there may be lots of NEW froggies who will find the boiling water is the perfect place for them (just what they were looking for!)
[ edited by amy on Jan 15, 2001 06:48 PM ]
posted on January 15, 2001 06:56:51 PM
Amy: At this point, we should all hope you are right about that! *smile*
I do HOPE that this will cause bidders to actually BID, rather than watch and risk losing out completely. Perhaps the idea of "it ain't over 'til it's OVER" will become... "If ya want it, BID or BUY NOW!"
IF that is the result of restricting access between members that are not transaction related, then it could potentially be the Bidding Boon we've been missing ever since the WATCH THIS AUCTION 'feature' was rolled out. LOL
If it doesn't serve to increase participation in eBay's venue (by auction or buy it now) then I guess we'll adjust...
posted on January 15, 2001 07:23:11 PM
I want to know how many of you people on here have items ebay bought for you to sell ??
None of you I assume have any such items, so if ebay did not buy your items that you sell they have no business asking for any fees from items you sell off of ebay !
My items are my items until I sell them in any venue.
Your items are your items until you sell them in any venue.
posted on January 15, 2001 08:31:33 PM
Maybe this is the reason ebay has put in the BIN so that you can put on your second widget and sell it to the next bidder right away. That would be one way for fee avoidance. I hate to toot my horn but I would never think of writing an underbidder unless the winning bidder backed out. I have been asked to end auctions but I never would do that either. I am not pure but I do abide by rules and when I signed up with ebay I told them I would abide by their rules. I know rules were made to be broken but what if all of you owned the business and the sellers did it to you, wouldn't you be upset also. This is a 24/7 business and I am sure they have a pretty hefty payroll and if after you pay your employees, take your salary and if there isn't any profit you either up the rates or go out of business. Ebay is a well run business compared to the other online auctions so if you want them to continue you have to abide by their rules.
posted on January 15, 2001 11:33:47 PM
Dottie..it just may increase bidding.
There are a lot of sellers who complain on the boards about being contacted after an auction ends with no bids and being asked to "make a deal"...it seems it is very aggravating to many sellers (me included) to think this "bidder" sat there just waiting for the auction to end so he could try and get the item for next to nothing. Hopefully this might really cut down on that situation!
It is also a good sign that the ebay crew is "slowly turning up the heat"...it means they have learned something from past fiascos. It bodes well for us that they aren't such old dogs that they can't learn new tricks. Now, if they could just see past the lenght of their noses maybe they will realize it would be SO much better for their bottom line if they would only facilitate "on ebay" after auction sales.
As for me...well, I have my old flame retardant suit from my pink pom pom days...I think it might do the job of insulating me from that water that is slowly coming to a boil! And while I sit here in this simmering ebay stew I will keep repeating to myself "Remember Charles Darwin, Remember Charles Darwin" in hopes that I can ADAPT and be one of the "fittest" who survive
