posted on January 26, 2001 01:55:21 PM
tentwentytwo...you ask Steven if he thinks he is talking to children.....Hmmmm, by the way SOME OF US are responding...I believe he is talking to children or shall I say the mentality of children. He has responded far more maturely than the ones posting their opinion here. I cannot believe the nasty tone of some of these posters when there is a young adult trying to make something of himself. Steven has been more than polite taking this c$#p from you all. Like I said before...you should be ashamed of yourselves!!! No wonder teenagers don't go to adults with ideas.....SHEEEEEEESH!
posted on January 26, 2001 02:00:42 PM
<<< TammiAndy
posted on January 26, 2001 01:55:21 PM new
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tentwentytwo...you ask Steven if he thinks he is talking to children.....Hmmmm, by the way SOME OF US are responding...I believe he is talking to children or shall I say the mentality of children. He has responded far more maturely than the ones posting their opinion here. I cannot believe the nasty tone of some of these posters when there is a young adult trying to make something of himself. Steven has been more than polite taking this c$#p from you all. Like I said before...you should be ashamed of yourselves!!! No wonder teenagers don't go to adults with ideas.....SHEEEEEEESH!
>>>
Sorry, he's been MORE THAN POLITE? Sending me 3 unwanted emails, then I come here to read this thread, and see him tell people that it's none of their business how he came to get their addresses? Where do YOU draw the line? If he came knocking on your door 3 days in a row, would you consider that "polite" also?
posted on January 26, 2001 02:03:16 PM
Here is what is wrong with this entire concept and website, as well as a glimpse of things to come:
Number 1
This is what happens when you spam Ebay sellers:
ReverseAuction.com has agreed to pay eBay $1.2 million to settle a lawsuit filed by the online auction giant that alleged the site engaged in misleading business practices. ReverseAuction took part in misleading business practices and had gained unauthorized access to eBay's Web site. The dispute stemmed from a mass mailing ReverseAuction sent to eBay members last November.
Number 2
This is what happens when you try to start a business that uses Ebay's database without their consent:
A federal judge has sided with eBay, issuing a preliminary injunction barring Bidder's Edge from using an automated system to search eBay's site for auction information. "It is undisputed that eBay's server and its capacity are personal property, and that Bidder's Edge's searches use a portion of that property," Whyte wrote in his order. "Even if its searches use only a small amount of eBay's computer system capacity, Bidder's Edge has nonetheless deprived eBay of the ability to use that portion of its personal property for its own purposes. The law recognizes no such right to use another's personal property."
posted on January 26, 2001 02:10:06 PM
And NOW Steve, I think you get it, although you probably don't realize that you get it, and this will be my final post, I wouldn't want to offend you any more, despite the fact that this is a public forum...
<<< stevenebin
posted on January 26, 2001 01:57:39 PM
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tentwentytwo -- Your posts are offensive.
I stopped Spamming when I learned that people were upset by the spam. Please stop posting, now that you know that I am upset by your post.
You address important issues, but perhaps we can work on the method we use to articulate them.>>>
#1. My posts are legal, just like your emails are.
#2. My posts are well within AuctionWatch posting guidelines, just like your correspondence is well within State Statutes.
#3. My posts are offensive to you, just as me receiving your 3 emails, and coming here and reading that you believe that it's none of anybody's business where you got their email addys from is offensive to me.
posted on January 26, 2001 02:12:40 PM
MrJim, would that also pertain to vrane? I am not knowledgeable in alot of things, but it seems like many sites use ebay for starting a business, because ebay is the number one auction site. Also, would it apply to the other sites who use new sellers fb from ebay when they start up?
posted on January 26, 2001 02:16:13 PM
I get offended every time I get spam asking me "DO YOU WANT TO LOSE WEIGHT"? No, I like my weight the way it is, thankyouverymuch. "DO YOU NEED A NEW MORTGAGE"? No, I dont own a home. I dont open them. I just dump them.
posted on January 26, 2001 02:22:40 PM
MrJim -- Thank you for addressing the important issue of eBay's database in the latter half of your posting.
I mentioned earlier that I had thought up this idea approximately 16 months ago.
One of the primary obstacles which elongated the process of preparing the web-site to 16 monts, was that we weren't sure if it was legal.
In fact, the case you allude to was critical in determining the legality.
To over-simplify things, what ended up happenning is that the legal staff OK'd it since eBay says that they don't own the feedback that their users leave. They openly state that they take no reponsibility for it. Please refer to their feedback forum page.
So, the lawyers determined that eBay's TOS wasn't applicable to the feedback.
A lot of research went into this, neccesarily so, lest we see if this holds up in a court-room.
Time shall tell.
What are your feelings, MrJim, do you think this is a strong argument, or not? What do you think the affect of a law-suit with eBay will be?
Vrane requires a user to manually enter their ebay username for each inquiry. Therefore it is the user requesting the data and permitted by Ebay.
Reliable Merchants monitors their members feedback, which requires their server to go out and pull ebay's database automatically. This is where the judge's ruling comes in. And that is what puts them at risk of being sued. In order for them to have a software program that uses the resources of someone else servers (ebay's) they need to have their consent. I doubt very seriously that Ebay would ever grant such permission as it would discredit their own feedback system.
posted on January 26, 2001 02:33:12 PM
Steven: The problem is not whether or not the feedback itself is copyrighted or private property. The issue is that in order to get it you have to use ebay's servers, which are their private property. If the user initiates the request it is legal and ebay cannot stop it. However, if a robot crawls their database to update your user's ratings you are using their property (servers) without their permission.
posted on January 26, 2001 02:34:29 PM
The effect of a lawsuit with Ebay?
Very, very, very expensive with continuances, motions being made which have to be heard and ruled on, long, drawn-out process causing more and more money to be funneled to defending lawsuit.
Just my humble opinion.
One other question - if you are only 17, depending on the State in which you reside, can you legally contract and incorporate a business naming yourself an Officer of the Corporation?
posted on January 26, 2001 02:39:37 PM
MrJim - I was thinking about that as well. What do you think of the user pushing a button, in which he initiates the request?
posted on January 26, 2001 02:40:47 PM
Steven...I'm not a lawyer, just a person who runs a business utilizing ebay...and one who reads the ebay boards a LOT.
You say your lawyers decided ebay does not own the feedback...you need to look into ebay's response when other auction sites tried importing ebay feedback of their users who were also ebay users...ebay wasn't happy. Ebay also forbids a user from using their feedback in any other venue, so it appears ebay has at least SOME impression they own the feedback and not the user.
Also, another problem is the ruling from the bidder's edge case...they were just searching the ebay data base, which is exactly what your doing.
Maui...on Vrane, it is possible ebay has given Vrane permission to search the data base. Ebay does make arrangements with outside companies, allowing them access to the data base. Several I can think of is Auction Assistant (before it was acquired by ebay), ebud, honesty
posted on January 26, 2001 02:42:51 PM
Jada - It will most certainly be expensive! We actually curtailed that issue by giving one of the lawyers a percentage of the company, so that eh doesn't get paid, and must work to protiect his own Gluteus Maximus, should such a situation arrive.
Next, Being a 17 year old COO creates problems. I had to sacrifice a percentage of my company to my mother, so that she can sign documents as my legal guardian, and a representative of the company. Kinda Wierd!
But, it is 100% legal to be the COO, so long as I am not signing documents. I attend bard meetings, give advice, and such, but cannot actually sign documents...
posted on January 26, 2001 02:55:06 PM
Perhaps you should put a hold on RM until you can touch base with your lawyer and CEO? I mean, if you are crawling their database, and thats a definet MAJOR no-no with ebay itself, then perhaps alittle more delving would be appropiate. I dont know whether to use the logo on the next batch of listings or not, with this new developement.
posted on January 26, 2001 02:56:06 PM
Steven - I wasn't thinking of just attorney's fees, of course that is a major expense. However, one must also consider Court filing fees, service fees by law enforcement personnel, Court reporting fees, expert fees for depositions given (if needed - in this State, general fee is from $150 - $400 per hour including travel time), document fees, etc.
posted on January 26, 2001 03:08:14 PM
mauimoods -- I can't really do anythng until Sunday, in terms of Lawyers and CEO, but there is nothing new here. We have contacts in eBay and it was determined to be legal. Of course Jim's suggestion will make it more legal.
Perhaps what we are doing is tantamount to Jaywalking -- eBay doesn't want us to cross in middle of the street, but won't ticket us for it.
However, if we can implement MrJim's WALK sign in middle of the street, it will no longer be Jaywalking
posted on January 26, 2001 03:15:37 PM
Dear ReliableMerchant Seller,
It is time to update your feedback rating. Please stop by to process your update and review your new rating for this month.
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This would require the user to "push the button" and also give them the opportunity to review their rating before it goes live in their auctions. This would also eliminate the possibility of any liability on the site's part for reporting false data. I would hate to see what happens when a seller notices they are getting no bids and checks their rating to see that it was dropped to a 20% because of a glitch when ebay's database was polled.
posted on January 26, 2001 03:21:41 PM
mauimoods -- Thank you so much for referring me to this board. The good outweighs the bad by orders of magnitude.
posted on January 26, 2001 03:33:21 PM
stevenbin----First, KUDOS to you for your sterling approach and maturity you've shown to all the negative postings. Can't deny that the internet is providing a new career avenue for persons under or legal age, and you certainly have a very creative idea.
However, that, in itself, has caused a first "strikeout" in the game of already dissillusioned, honest sellers.
The next "strike" is being on this board at all. In the course of 5 pages of dissertation, you probably have already racked up at least half a million in otherwise costly advertising.
You certainly must admit, that ebay competitors have not undertaken such an approach. In the real world of business, a company creates a "business plan"- projecting all of the things being discussed here. You took your chances here, throwing yourself into the den of compassionate,sometimes surly, and some mildly interested merchants.
The old "find a need and fill it" theory may fully apply - but creating a BBB (Better Business Bureau) for ebay will and should require more than just an idea. First, the company who is successful at such a huge venture - would be expected to come from a vast professional background.
INMO-- your approach might have been to "partner" with such a firm - holding 51% of its holdings or profits. Staying firmly in the background - until the appropriate time or age,would now, or (have been) to your advantage.
All the above is said with great respect to your dignity, foresight and dreams. []
posted on January 26, 2001 03:55:21 PM
Although I admire your initiative and professional demeanor, Steve, I have to question just where you see the profit from this business coming from. Two years ago, people could begin startups without being concerned over profit. They basically anticipated buyouts. But those are getting fewer and farther in between these days. A business model without a clear source of profit will not get sold. Nor do banners constitute a viable long term source of income any longer.
The problem with your business, as I see it, is that it doesn't actually do anything that sellers actively need. Not to say there's anything wrong with it---far from it. It looks like a cool little tool. But, that's the problem. It's a semi-useful bell and whistle. From my observation, auction sellers have become savvy and no longer flock to the latest bell and whistle just because it's new. At this point, few of us want to climb on the bandwagon of yet another service and see it crash n' burn in a few months. Unfortunately, you (like all the others) can say "we're in it for the long haul" but the fact is, you have no control over that. When your money runs out you will disappear. All the venture capital in the world doesn't make a so-so idea into a winner. Remember pets.com? I could name dozens-hundreds!-more. Excite@home just laid off 500.....drugstore.com just laid off a big chunk of staff.....there are more coming, believe me. Venture capitalists have been funding companies with idiotic business plans and the shakeout is here. For your sake, I hope you & your family don't have a whole lot invested in this neat little tool. However, you seem really bright and I'm sure you'll go on to have other businesses which will take what you've learned from this one and apply it to concepts which actually fill a need in a profitable way. Good luck.
posted on January 26, 2001 04:03:46 PMSTEVE: man, when I was 17 all I cared about... Whoops! Never mind! Anyhoo, what you might want to consider is a partnership with some sort of insurance!
Say something along the lines of :"If a RM merchant doesn't deliver the goods, RM will reimburse you 50% of your high bid" or something like that. I.e.: stick the ole moola where ye os is!
posted on January 26, 2001 04:37:02 PM
whyizzit -- First, I like your name. Very creative. In the literal and firgurative sense.
In answer to your thoughtful comments; the company does have specific plans. Among those plans is racking up that "half a million in free advertising", which you mentioned.
Four days have passed since the company began accepting clients, and allready we have 1,300+ clients. That is amazing, and a lot of it is due to this 'half a million in free advertising'. Thanks!
Second, I would never enter a forest if I thought there was a chance that I would get lost or attacked by wild animals. Similarly, I would never come here if I though there was a chance that I would not be able to answer your questions, or be unable to defend my system. It is most certainly not perfect, but serves as a great supplement to the current system.
Third, our professional backgrounds are truly diverse. You are invited to check out our bio's at http://www.reliablemerchants.com/bios.html .
There are 8 people involved in the company, and as I mentioned alluded to previously, Marsha Collier (author of eBay for Dummies) loves the idea, and is somewhat involved.
The company is composed of quite an eclectic group, with varying professional backgrounds, and, perhaps, a three generation gap.
Fourth, you mention partnering. I don't want to take too many liberties, by disclosing too much information, but we might be partnering with several companies in the very near future. We were waiting, first, to establih a customer database. This gives us more room in negotitation.
Last, you mention staying in the background. You are right, as it is critical to success. I have been keeping a rather low profile over the past 16 months. Now, however, I have invited some media attention. In the past two weeks I was interviewed on Fox television and several radio stations.
Your thoughts were certainly an insight into the choice of your user-name. Questions yied answers.
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