posted on January 26, 2001 04:56:25 PM
I still don't understand why an extra seal is necessary? You haven't even addressed the notion that it's basically a seal purchased by sellers. What is the point?
I agree with Reddeer. Booty kick 'em.
Basically my email was harvested without my permission and somehow the spammer is lauded as this articulate young man.
Boy you can always sell a salesman!
I think I will make a point of avoiding those auctions. Somehow I imagine that the boards will be the wailing wall when the alogarithm or fees don't go your way.
posted on January 26, 2001 05:33:29 PM
Capricole -- I think everybody here agrees that the seal is not neccessary. However, most users on this board also agree that the system services is a good SUPPLEMENT to the eBay system. It certainly converts the data found in the ebay system to a simple to understand percentage. Whether it assigns a correct percentage is under debate; most here agree that it is fairly accurate, but not 100%. Also, bidders will feel more comfortable if a seller has our seal. This, too, is a favorable supplement to the eBay system.
You mention that this is "basically a seal purchased by sellers". Capricole, the seal isn't purchased, it is free. We are able to give it away for free because we have Venture Capitalist funding.
Capricole, I take the suggestions of this board into very careful consideration. The people on this board are guru's. I was asked to stop spamming and I did.
posted on January 26, 2001 05:38:15 PM
stevenebin -
All it would take to bring your company to a DEAD STOP is a single line of code in a router table at eBay ... and if you are profiting from parasite services on eBay, they might very well do it.
You have STILL not explained the source of the addresses, and why you feel that violating eBay's TOS and making commercial use of them is somehow OK.
we might be partnering with several companies in the very near future. We were waiting, first, to establih a customer database. This gives us more room in negotitation.
OH ... you need more bodies to place on the auction block? More personal profiles to sell? And your privacy policy permits it, too.
You mention that this is "basically a seal purchased by sellers". Capricole, the seal isn't purchased, it is free. We are able to give it away for free because we have Venture Capitalist funding.
They are more commonly called "Vulture Capitalists" and they EXPECT that you will make money and make it real soon. They aren't charities. And when your logo is bought and paid for, like the TrustE logo, you will be under pressure to slacken your standards to keep revenues UP. And they willwant to "monetize the user base" (translation, spam the hell out of them trying to sell them more services).
posted on January 26, 2001 06:06:46 PM
abacaxi -- The spams have stopped and I consider the matter closed.
You express disapproval of a partnership. Indeed, there are times when partnerships lead to further bureaucracy and unnecessary complications. In the case of PayPal and x.com, fees resulted. Most of the time, though, partnerships and mergers, acquisitions and subsidiaries, will result in more services. Blackthorne, for example, became a subsidiary of eBay, and was able to provide many more services, and more advanced programs. Honesty and Andale have joined and they have expanded.
When two companies merge, are there more bodies on the auction block, or less?
You are concerned about the privacy policy; most privacy policies do include a clause that the user-base may be sold in the result of a merger or acquisition, etc. In fact, a company can have that clause and still qualify for the TrustE seal. I invite you to browse through sites with the TrustE seal, and see for yourself. Here is just one example of a site with the TrustE seal that insert that clause: 247media.com. (notice that the site begins with a '2', there were a whole bunch, and i grabbed this from the top of the list on TrustE's own web-site).
Venture Capitalists are not vultures. If they were, then nobody would sacrifice a piece of their company to get funding from them. People would just take loans. eBay itself is the product of a venture capital deal. (The most successful one ever, i might add). They expect a revenue, but there are alternatives to charging customers.
posted on January 26, 2001 06:41:18 PM
Steve -
You can't just blow off the issue of how/where you got the emails you spammed to. Doing it proved that you valued profit above ethics, and evading the issue merely makes you look way too much like a politician caught with his hand in his secretary's knickers.
"In the case of PayPal and x.com, fees resulted" .... actually in this case, fees were planned all along, they just didn't bother to tell the peasants. The peasants were not happy. If you promote yiour service as FREE and
"Here is just one example of a site with the TrustE seal that insert that clause: 247media.com."
247media.com ?? Yeah, and their primary product is spam, sent to lists scavenged from dubious sources.
"Venture Capitalists are not vultures. If they were, then nobody would sacrifice a piece of their company to get funding from them. People would just take loans."
I've been through the dotcom startup rituals ... Banks don't make loans to businesses who have no book value and only an idea. Venture Capitalists are willing to take the risks that banks aren't, so you sell a hulking chunk of the company to them in exchange for the chance to make it work. And they won't wait for very long before wanting to see profits from your site. At that point, you will either do it their way or they flap off to the next roadkill.
posted on January 26, 2001 07:08:03 PM
abacaxi -- First, would you mind telling me your first-name. I always prefer a name when conversing with people online.
Nobody is debating whether PayPal's fee was planned or not. I was giving an example of a merger, that some people didn't approve of, and which we all have familiarity. PayPal was the obvious example. The real issue is the actual merger, and how it made two companies into one. Less people on the auction block, not more.
If you don't like my example of 247media, I can give you 5 more. Give me a letter in the alphabet, and I'll list a company verified by TrustE, which will relinquish their customer database in the result of a merger.
Your familiarity with e-commerce startups, gives you a unique understanding of how this works. First, you know that in today's turbulent market very few companies are able to secure Venture Capitalist funding. Those that do secure funding must have a solid business plan as well as an exit plan. The amount of funding they provide, is largely dependant on the risks involved, the opportunities, and the percentage your willing to sacrifice.
They want money.
They are not vultures. If they were vultures, than eBay would be an eaten out carcass.
posted on January 26, 2001 07:30:33 PM
reddeer -- This is a way of conveying that your word is your bond. The seal doesn't make you honest, it shows that you're honest.
posted on January 26, 2001 08:52:02 PM
Good luck with your "Reliable Seller" program, I for one don't need your little "Seal" my feedback speaks for itself, 4,000+ plus positive,you must think ebay sellers have a very low IQ to believe your seal would mean anything to anybody at anytime, be real,actions speak louder than seals
posted on January 26, 2001 09:31:15 PM
Ease up there Red. If you don't like it, you don't have to use it.
Steve: Many of the critics also state loudly and obnoxiously that they hate the PowerSellers logo, won't buy from Andale merchants, etc, etc.
However, I think you are correct in that many buyers would like to see a seal that instills more confidence. And I believe that many buyers actually WILL feel safer when they see your logo. Now having said that, we have over 7000 feedback and will not likely be adding your logo to our service. That doesn't mean I don't like the service, simply that I don't really need it.
Good Luck. If it really takes off, I'll be back to sign up!
(For the record, we got rid of our Powersellers logo because it did nothing for our sales and we don't use Andale)
posted on January 26, 2001 09:32:41 PM
I am inserting this story here because I think it relates. Do not read more into this insertion than applys. I am by no means making any implications.
Web Is Tool to Build Companies, Not Quick Riches
Friday January 26, 10:04 AM EST
By Lucas van Grinsven, European technology correspondent
DAVOS, Switzerland (Reuters) - The Internet as a tool to build real companies rather than make quick riches is the message at this year's World Economic Forum, in stark contrast to the Web exuberance that reigned a year ago.
Some of the world's most prominent business leaders who have gathered at the ski resort in the Swiss alps admitted that they had been guilty of greed that had brought huge wealth to some, but large losses to many others.
"We've seen too much greed, including from ourselves. People thought that a 30 percent profit on investments was easy and 100 percent was possible," said Hasso Plattner, co-chief executive of Germany's SAP, the world's largest enterprise software maker.
His company jumped on the Internet bandwagon two years ago and lost $250 million in the process.
"Not through the stock market, but our own money. Money we invested after taxes," Plattner said.
Like so many others, SAP ventured into business-to-consumer Web companies which never turned into a profit.
"The business model was taken from Utopia," Plattner admitted.
The sobering picture he painted is a far cry from the upbeat mood that dictated the millennium's first meeting of the forum, 12 months ago, when the Internet bubble was just two months away from bursting and when investors readily valued a single user of a free Internet Service Provider at 10,000 euros ($9,285) or more.
Registered users of U.S. portal Yahoo, the Web's most popular destination in many countries, are currently valued at just $240 according to JP Morgan research.
POWER IS STILL WITH "OLD" COMPANIES
Virtually free cash had stopped flowing to most Internet start-ups which has left them gasping for air, while cash-generating old companies can enjoy a wry smile at the sidelines.
Orit Gadiesh, chairman of consultancy firm Bain & Company, said that the past year showed clearly that power had not shifted from "old" companies to "new" companies. In fact, she saw very little potential for pure Internet companies.
"Internet is a core business for just a few companies, such as Yahoo, (Internet services and media provider) AOL Time Warner and (online auctioner) eBay. For almost everyone else it is a tool," she said.
Like electricity, the Internet enables incumbent companies to maximize their strengths, such as a large and paying customer base, market share and a brand name.
A company such as General Electric, which embraced the Web only when its skeptical Chief Executive Jack Welch was convinced two years ago, now wires up some of the equipment its sells in order to measure performance against machines at other clients.
"It got a new service, which builds on old assets, and the machines it sells become more valuable," she said.
Internet companies which tried to build a business on other company's assets, such as Priceline.com which sells surplus capacity in hotels and aircraft at a discount, would find that the old world would reclaim that business as they were becoming more Web savvy.
Tim Koogle, chief executive of Yahoo, who runs one of the few profitable and cash-positive Internet companies, agreed that many Web enterprises would disappear, but that the Internet itself was here to stay.
"In five to 10 years from now the Internet as an infastructure will be woven into people's lives so that people will be surrounded by access places. Make no mistake about that," Koogle said.
Plattner said the big technological and sociological challenge was to actually let people work together by using a network that spans the globe. In that respect, and despite the buzz, the Internet was still very much in its infancy, he said.
posted on January 26, 2001 09:56:47 PM"Personally I hope eBay runs them out of town."
I'm really appalled at the insider/outsider mentality of many posters here. He's answered your rants and raves politely, which is impressive in and of itself. You got spammed? Get over it! I get at least one offer from credit card companies per day in my mail box. I don't even see the online spam I receive as it's directed to a special mailbox.
There's no difference between the icon RM offers and that icon that OAUA offers. If you don't like spam, state your piece and move on. But face it, mass mail marketing is a legal, bona fide sales tool. Just because the kid is an outsider you feel jusitified in dishing out abuse and ridicule. I'm frankly embarrassed to be a part of this discussion.
There are plenty of services out there which offer the same as RM. A little icon you can buy for your auctions. So what. Get over it. GratefulDad About Me
posted on January 26, 2001 10:04:01 PM
Genxmike ......... Just stating my "opinion", if that's ok?
I think the entire idea of needing an outside party to give me a "seal of approval" is asinine. BTW - I also "buy" on eBay from time to time.
I learned how to read back in elementary school, my spellin may suck at times, but my reading skills are just fine. Feedback is good, I bid, feedback is not so good, I decide how bad I want the item, feedback stinks, I pass. Seems pretty straightforward to me?
What I've read on this thread thus far, I don't like.
I also don't have my power seller logo on my auctions, 'cause I don't think those amount to spit either.
And you're correct, I don't have to use this service, and I won't be.
posted on January 26, 2001 10:26:09 PM
I wish the moderator would come in and kick some of these people off.....HOW RUDE YOU ARE!!! I wouldn't want you to have any part of my business if I were Steven...I'd consider myself fortunate to not have to deal with the likes of you.
Steven....There is a way to block these obnoxious, rude people from this discussion...I really don't think you would be missing much if you did!!! Constructive criticism is one thing, but some of you have crossed the line!!! Enough said....
posted on January 26, 2001 10:46:12 PM
May I borrow a line from you Redeer???
"Just stating my "opinion"
I came to this post to gather information since I am a seller on eBay...instead I found myself trying to defend this kid...How sad that it came to that or that I even had to. Encouragement is a powerful thing and with all the crime in our country committed by young adults, we should offer CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM & encouragement. Even if it doesn't succeed, so what? At least he gave it a shot and learned from it. Come on....be nice!!! You can do it!!!
posted on January 26, 2001 10:57:10 PM
Hi everyone,
A large part of what draws Users to AW is the diversity of opinions available on a myriad of subjects. Provided posts conform to the Community Guidelines, users are entitled to post those opinions.
Because not everyone is going to necessarily agree on every subject, I'd like to remind you we have the handy ignore feature at your disposal. Click on the User ID in question, select the "ignore all posts by" and you don't even have to agree to disagree anymore.
posted on January 26, 2001 11:22:16 PM
Michelle....how boring that would be! (ignoring)
Everytime I read someone suggest using the ignore button I think og little children putting their fingers in their ears and saying "I can't hear you, I can't hear you"
posted on January 27, 2001 12:06:06 AM
Thank you genxmike, twinsoft, tammiandy, michelleG, for helping me out on this page alone.
I mentioned previously: "the good outweighs the bad on this board, by orders of magnitude".
As I hadn't come here expecting to be torn eaten alive by sharks, I certainly haven't arrived here playing with minnows.
I enjoy the intellectual stimulation and great ideas so proliferant on this board. Overall my experience on this board has been great!
Let's all remember that many of the people who are vexed, were provoked. I did send out spam, and that was a mistake.
We cannot change the past, but we can work on the future. Together.
This is why I joined this board, and why I won't put anybody on ignore -- because people are generally good, and have good things to say. We all do want a better future. We just disagree on where exactly the parameters of ‘better’, lie.
At times, the things that the vexed group have to say are articulated in an offensive fashion, but the content in nonetheless important.
I will never ignore something important.
We all have a common goal. We want cyber-auctions to be better. Some of you have proposed a revolutionary peer to peer system, others propose smaller undertakings. I envision an enhanced version of the current system. A more honest one. If we differ along the way that is fine...
Whether the ReliableMerchants network will enhance the current system is what should be debated here. Many of us believe that it will be a favorable supplement, others counter that it will delimit the current system. This is what I enjoy – a nice debate.
posted on January 27, 2001 12:25:10 AM
Steve, some of your recent comments bother me.
One poster mentioned in reference to this particular thread that "In the course of 5 pages of dissertation, you probably have already racked up at least half a million in otherwise costly advertising."
In response to that comment you say "In answer to your thoughtful comments; the company does have specific plans. Among those plans is racking up that "half a million in free advertising", which you mentioned. Four days have passed since the company began accepting clients, and allready we have 1,300+ clients. That is amazing, and a lot of it is due to this 'half a million in free advertising'. Thanks!"
From that statement I gather that this thread was "planned" in advance to make Ebay sellers aware of your site, to promote your site, (though low key), and to obtain "half a million in free advertising" even though you didn't begin the thread and you said you didn't want the thread to be promotional.
Seems to be a rather manipulative and under-handed use by your company of both the posters on this thread and AW's resources.
posted on January 27, 2001 12:39:27 AM
"There's no difference between the icon RM offers and that icon that OAUA offers."
Well, I think there are some significant differences. I've been involved with OAUA from the beginning (about 2 years now)- so I'll try to explain what distinguishes the Online Auction Users Association from other groups.
1. OAUA is non-profit. Unlike a lot of other dot.coms that don't to turn a profit despite their best efforts, OAUA is that way by design. We’ve been designated as a non-profit trade association by the IRS.
2. The 40 or so folks who conduct OAUA's day to day business are all online auction users, and they are all volunteers. They are also all adults. None gets paid for the work they do. They do it because they think it benefits members and the industry as a whole.
3. Each of OAUA’s 2600 or so members has agreed to adhere to OAUA’s Code of Ethics for online auction users. Each has had their identity verified by OAUA. Each has had their feedback examined, at several auction sites if appropriate, including a review for evidence of shilling, feedback padding, and other inappropriate behavior. This takes a little time- no “instant” members. 100% positive feedback is not a guarantee of membership. Things aren’t that simple.
4. Membership in OAUA is free. Not $40, not $4—it’s free. No "evaluation" for a limited time. Members don’t buy a logo- they either qualify, or they don’t.
5. OAUA exists for the benefit of its members—not for the benefit of its founders or leadership. We’re a member-run organization.
6. Each OAUA member is a member of the corporation—with rights to vote to choose the leadership of the Association. The bylaws and articles of incorporation, which are posted on the site, govern the operation of the Corporation. The association’s business is conducted at meetings which can be attended online by any member.
7. OAUA provides its members discounts on products and services, as well as member-to-member discounts. We hope to offer discounts on group medical insurance, and credit union membership in the future. A discussion board. Live chat. Scheduled educational chats with industry leaders. Educational resources. Product evaluations. One of the best auction-related links pages on the web.
8. OAUA is independent. We’re not owned by anybody, other than the members.
9. We don’t ask for Social Security numbers. Don’t want ‘em. We don’t ask for credit card numbers. Don’t want ‘em.
10. We don’t change our membership agreement at will, without reasonable notice to members.
11. OAUA will not sell, rent, or lend members’ e-mail address, mailing address, phone number, financial information or any other specific identifiable information to anyone without the members’ consent. Period.
12. OAUA does not condone spamming. OAUA does not spam. Never has, never will.
I’m sure I missed some things- but that’s what comes to mind.
posted on January 27, 2001 12:48:27 AM
magazineguy -- This is not a competition for which is a better service. Clearly, OAUA is a great service! I would HIGHLY recommend it to anybody.
The content of your post was most informative, though disparaging to RM to say the least. People are entitled to their opinions and I was not bothered by this. I was, however, bothered by your mention that OAUA's staff consists of adults.
With all due respect, young age does not preclude wisdom or success. Let's all judge people by the content of their speech and actions, not by their appearances and age.
