posted on January 27, 2001 01:09:09 AM
First of all let me say that I am realtively new to AW message boards,so I already know sometimes I spell incorrectly and don't need to know this LOL. I just don't get it. If you have a good feedback with eBay, shouldn't that speak for itself to the buyers? Why do we need a seal to tell the buyer what they should already be able to see for themselves? Honesty will show up in your feedback,and any attempt to make a good seller look bad should easily be determined.From what I have seen, most power sellers don't ever use that banner, as they seem to think it puts them in a catagory not to be trusted, too many auctions. I really don't know as I do not see this in my imediate future. How can 1 person possibly list so many items? Steve seems polite enough, but I don't understand how he could take so many hits and not hit back, unless alot of money *future*, is in it for him. As I said I might be missing the point. beadkat uses delet alot!!!!!
posted on January 27, 2001 02:33:30 AM
Steve, well I knew that crack about OAUA would rattle a few cages. Heh, heh. I have respect for OAUA but I believe from and end-user's (buyer) perspective there is very little difference. Any given transaction can go south and let's face it, any buyer that relies solely on a little icon to insure a successful transaction is just asking to get burned. I think the "rest assured" comment by RM was a mistake but it has already been addressed. Actually, I like RM, whereas OAUA asked for a copy of my bank check. For me, that's too invasive. If the kid wants to charge for his services, more power to him. If he wants to offer it free, then charge later on, so what else is new? That's the way things are done on the Web nowadays. At any rate, I am deeply embarrassed by the conduct of posters in this thread and I don't see much room for productive conversation. If Steve (I'm Steve, you're Steve, he's Steve) wants to hang around for some free advice, he's welcome to it but I would have signed off with a flip of the finger long ago.
The only thing that bugs me is that I tried to log on to RM and was told that there is no such user as me at eBay. Sigh....
posted on January 27, 2001 03:06:53 AM
Steve -
Names? How about Tsu Dho Nimh? It's the one I use online. I'm not bothered by avatars.
First, you know that in today's turbulent market very few companies are able to secure Venture Capitalist funding. Well, it depends on the vultures ... BTW, who did you get it from? Wildcatters or an established firm? And how much? Most companies that receive venture capital put it in the press releases because it tells the world they are maybe better financed than other dotcoms.
This is a way of conveying that your word is your bond. The seal doesn't make you honest, it shows that you're honest. (snip) I envision an enhanced version of the current system. A more honest one ...
No, the seal showed that you APPEAR to be honest when your feedback is run through a mathematical formula if only because you haven't cheated anybody yet. Your seal is VERY vulnerable to exploitation by any scammer with the patience for the waiting period and the ability to create enough user IDs to get to the feedback you require.
With a $0.30 listing fee and about $0.10 in FVF on fake BIN auctions, an investment of under $100 in auctions would buy your seal and then they could start the scam. Considering that the Playstation scammers pulled in THOUSANDS, and the AlienDistribution scam/debacle also pulled in thousands of dollars, it might be worth the wait to get the seal. In the 2-week window where people are waiting for things to arrrive, a scammer can collect a lot of dough and vanish, leaving you and your seal with egg all over their faces. It took TrustE under a year to lose their credibility among the technically aware online users: RealAudio spammed, SpAmazon spammed, eBay spammed ... and they did nothing because their operating costs are paid by their members and they hate to lose those dues.
Edited because I can't type!
[ edited by abacaxi on Jan 27, 2001 04:31 AM ]
posted on January 27, 2001 04:14:12 AM
Well, my RM rating is 98.6 and my eBay feedback ratio is 98.6. I guess I don't get it. It's a nice icon but I don't think I'll be adding it to my auctions. I did notice that all the neutrals were counted as "less than satisfactory" which is inaccurate. Many neutrals were converted from positive or negative when users unregistered. In some cases those neutrals represent negative feedback from people who were booted from eBay. I think any forumula should ignore neutrals altogether. In the good old days (as one poster observed above), it was not uncommon to leave a neutral "hey, I can't contact you via email" which according to RM would count as a penalty. Neutral should not be counted as negative. To be completely fair, I think the system should only consider feedback left after eBay changed the system to transactional only. Before that, any kind of feedback (and feedback padding) was allowed.
posted on January 27, 2001 06:31:46 AM
And let's not forget that at one time, when a user changed their email addy, eBay left an "administrative neutral" on the users feedback file. I have a couple of those, but no negs. Ooops, there goes my perfect score.
posted on January 27, 2001 07:08:33 AM
And here's something else you might want to check out.
On my feedback page, eBay has:
6 neutrals. 3 are from users no
longer registered.
When in fact, the "true" numbers are:
7 neutrals. 5 are from users no longer registered.
1 is from when I changed my email addy & received an "administrative neutral" from eBay.
In other words, I have 1 legit neutral.
Also, as Twinsoft has mentioned, before feedback became tied to a transaction, any whacko with an agenda could bomb the blazes out of your feedback & most times eBay would do nothing to help.
I know one honest seller that was hit with 50+ nasty neutrals from some twerp who grabbed a new user ID, [after he already negged her] & then went on a rampage. With my help, she was able to get approx half of them removed, but only because the eBay system screwed up. [they had identical timestamps]
So here's a seler with 20-30 nasty neutral comments buried deep in her feedback that were left by some weenie that had an agenda, and only one of them was tied to a transaction, and not even under this ID.
posted on January 27, 2001 07:23:10 AM
magazine_guy
13.OAUA has ethics, Reliable merchants......(fill in the blank)
Steve, I know you are young and say you will not spam anymore. Your associates are not inexperienced and so young. They should have known better than to proceed with a spam marketing campaign.
With ebay fees, FVF's, credit card fees and all the other fees, do I really wish to help create a need for yet another fee? It won't be free forever, this is just another company like Paypal. First, create the market by giving the service away, once it's indispensable, then charge a fee.
I know, I won't be signing up for that logo.
posted on January 27, 2001 07:24:07 AM
I just checked the feedback of the seller I mentioned above.
This was back when NEG feedback had to be tied to a transaction, but pos & neutral did not.
The high bidder negged her, then with the same user ID left her approx 50 nasty neutrals. After several weeks, eBay removed the nasty neutral comments that had identical time stamps, the rest were left as-is. Even though he was NARU'd for the feedback bombing [and still is], eBay would not remove them. The whacko then grabbed another User ID & slammed her with another neutral [ID was also NARU'd] but eBay left that stand Neutral as well.
That seller has a total of 18 Neutrals, showing ONLY 2 as from users NARU. She also has 2 negs, and one was from this weenie.
400+ GOOD solid feedback until this jerk came along.
I'm sure there are plenty of sellers that have had their feedback messed with in the past.
posted on January 27, 2001 08:53:48 AM
I happen to be one of the original "Powersellers" at a high level, not that it means anything to me or anyone else and do not use the logo in my listings, (I don't need it) however I have sent an email to Powersellers regarding this so called "Reliable Seller" program and reported their annoying Spam and I hope ebay gets you good Kid, why don't you try working for a living? Surely you can dream up some other cute little program to take advantage of hard working people who are a little naive? You are such a brilliant boy that I am sure it won't be difficult at all. Good luck in the real world little boy
posted on January 27, 2001 10:54:07 AM
stevenebin,
You said:
"With all due respect, young age does not preclude wisdom or success. Let's all judge people by the content of their speech and actions, not by their appearances and age."
... exactly, but you see this must work both ways. You can't expect special privileges and allowances due to your age either. In some situations perhaps, but not when what you are proposing, if your project IS accepted by the auction community at large, could possibly affect everyone who is a serious eBay seller down the road. You are attempting to do something which could have a trickle down effect on MY business. Because of that I shouldn't grant you greater liberties than I would another just due to your age and the fact that I admire your intellect and drive. Make sense?
Your age doesn't make you unaccountable. The fact that you are launching this enterprise with the goal of being bought out for financial gain makes you even MORE accountable. You want to financially profit from my participation on your site.
I'm a commodity
I have a number of neutrals in my feedback file. One because the high bidder wanted me to contact them within minutes of my auction ending so they left a note saying e-mail me ASAP. Others because I changed ISP's, and still others because the folks who left positives were Narued.
All of my neutrals are positive in "texture" (love that word Amy ... thanks!)
You have been on eBay for quite awhile. I would imagine that you would have a greater understanding of the feedback systems and it's idiosyncrasies than the newer user.
The folks whom you have left feedback for might find themselves in similar situations as myself. I noticed the first 36 feedbacks you left were ALL neutrals though positive in content. Ouch! Then later down the road you routinely left a number of non-transaction related positives to push a number of folks to the next level star. (This is well beyond the initial 1 week feedback padding period I believe you have referred to that you participated in when you first started).
The above behavior shows that if all the folks you personally have left feedback for were used as test cases in your own program the results would not be a fair reflection of the person's true feedback.
Sigh.
Are those folks less reliable because you left them a neutral instead of a positive? Are they more reliable because you left them a positive simply to push them up to the next star level? Does that positive carry any weight at all as a reflection of the seller's reliability?
Sans texture, a fancy algorithm can't replace the words. The intent. My brain. What my brain tells my heart.
I don't mean to come across harshly, but at the same time I'm not a bit comfortable with what you are proposing and the result it may have on me personally.
I've been watching from the beginning of this thread, and haven't posted before now as I didn't want to add to the "half million dollars" in free exposure you are getting.
At the same time I feel it heavy on my mind to share my perspective on this.
I wish you well on your future endeavors. If you develop an auction related tool which is beneficial to me you can bet I will be happy to embrace it. For me this particular tool isn't it.
P.S. - This has really been bothering me, so I'm gonna go ahead and ask. I noticed you mentioned earlier in this thread that your weigh loss product "me" page was a joke
"next, i didn't market bogus diet pills on eBay. The about me page is a JOKE. I believe that anybody reading my about me page will realize that it is a JOKE!!!"
To me this inferred that you didn't sell weight loss products ... I'm not sure I understand many of your feedbacks then:
Son using product and losing weight! Great product and excellent seller A+++++++
Excellent service...Highly recommend...can't wait to try product!!
Very quick, easy smooth transaction. Hope the product is just as good. Mahalo!
Fast shipment, A++ Now to see if it works...
Can't wait to try this. Great transaction. Thanks !!!!!!!!!!!!
Fast shipping! Good packing! Good product! Recommend!
Received the product as described. Highly recommended seller.
This sounds like a great way to lose weight!
Everything went well. Great Seller, great product. Would buy from again
Thank You! Fast shipping, can't wait to try it!
Definitely one of a kind! 2 pounds in 3 days! Yaay! Will order again!
100% honest & relaiable! Super to deal with. Buy 'WIZON', it WORKS!!!!!
and then your response to another feedback:
Sorry! Success rate is 85%. Refund is available! Best of luck in future diets
So you DID sell weight loss products sans the word bogus? Or you believe they weren't bogus? Or?
posted on January 27, 2001 11:09:56 AM
Enough already.
The nasty comments calling Steven Ebin a kid, boy or son, are mean, nasty, demeaning, condescending and totally uncalled for. If you don't like what he saying, then address the issue, not the person.
Remember, this 17-year-old is in his second year of college. I know when I was in my second year of college if someone called me a kid, boy or son, I would have taken offense and totally lost respect for that person.
posted on January 27, 2001 01:18:28 PM
Heartsong -- Thank you for approaching this subject in a respectful way. Your tone was partially inquisitive, rather than a ‘this-is-it’, iron-clad, remark.
However, misinformation leads to misaccusation.
You cite that I ask people to judge the content of my speech, rather than my age. You mention that it applies both ways, and I shouldn’t get any special treatment because of my current age: When have I asked for special treatment for my 17-year-old self? I ask for no more respect or tolerance than you should be showing toward any adult.
Next you bring up the 'texture' of comments, and how perfunctory mathematics can overlook certain things. I agree, and have agreed throughout the thread. I even mentioned earlier, that a previous version of the algorithm had used this idea and parsed through the words in the feedback but it took much longer, and gained .5% confidence. The algorithm would only be accurate for 1 more person in 200.
To illustrate without having to clutter this board with mathematics: Look at your own feedback rating. Divide the percentage of unique neutrals which have positive 'texture', by the amount of total comments. The resulting number will be VERY low. Even in extreme cases it'll be low. This is why evaluating the texture gains only .5% confidence.
You apply the algorithm's failure to parse each comment, to what you believe is my own leaving of feedback which is positive in content, but aesthetically neutral:
I unregistered from eBay for a short while in the beginning (I was temporarily computerless) -- and when I decided to return to eBay, my comments were converted to neutrals. The algorithm can detect this incident because it is considered to be left by a user 'no longer registered'.
You say feedback padding extended far beyond my first week or two on eBay – Whom have I left a positive comment undeservingly aside from ‘lsfeder’ – on the 13th day of my registration? Look at the comment carefully, you will notice that it was left during school, on eastern time. Peer-pressure. Also notice that it is a whole group of kids. Peer pressure.
Finally, I didn’t say that I haven’t sold a weight-loss pill – I said that I haven’t sold a ‘bogus’ weight-loss pill. It was legit. Read some of the comments that you pasted.
posted on January 27, 2001 01:28:33 PM
Our services are available only to individuals who can form legally binding contracts under applicable law. Without limiting the foregoing, our services are not available to minors. If you do not qualify, please do not use our services. Further, our services are not available to temporarily or indefinitely suspended eBay members.
Steven, the above is from ebay's TOS. I do not think that you, as a minor, are allowed to conduct business on ebay yet you have been doing so since you were 15 yrs old? You admit to selling items and leaving feedback. How do you explain that?
Edited to say that just because your mother registered you, you are allowed to conduct business?
posted on January 27, 2001 01:35:41 PM
I believe that the answer to your question is 'yes' -- sign-up is the legally binding contract they refer to, and the text was taken from the User Agreement which is by the sign-up.
Indeed, on the first-page of sign-u pit says "Note: You must be at least 18 years old to register on eBay"
posted on January 27, 2001 01:36:12 PM
There was a Moderator that stepped in earlier saying members were within the guidelines.....Is that still true???...If so, I surely think you need to do something about your guidelines that addresses being PERSONALLY RUDE....Come on...lets get some warnings going here...This is ridiculous!!!!
posted on January 27, 2001 01:42:47 PM
shaani: The answer to your question is in the contact info on Ebay. If you request steven's contact info through Ebay and his name comes up, it is a violation. If his mother or another adult comes up, it is not.
Are you saying that I am being rude to ask Steven these questions? I have a right to ask these questions.
I believe that Steven is operating on ebay and he is a minor by his own admission. I buy and sell on ebay and I have a right to know if I am operating on a site that allows minors to buy from me or sell to me.
Steven is the same person that told me that it was none of my business where he got my e-mail addy. I am only asking questions here. If you interpret them as rude and you don't like them, please hit the "ignore" button.
posted on January 27, 2001 02:04:56 PM
No Shaani...I was not referring to you at all...I believe Raglady1 was waaaaaaaay out of line...not you...sorry your posts jumped in before I could get mine posted
posted on January 27, 2001 02:05:17 PM
Steven, half of me is regretful that I even brought up this subject. When I got your email, I automatically came here to AW to ask if anyone heard of you because thats what I do...I come to ask these folks because I respect what they have to say (most of the time, anyway). When I started this thread, I had no clue that you would answer as quickly as you did, and then I told you that I asked about RM in AW and sent you the link so you would know you were being discussed...or rather, you MAY be discussed, since nobody posted at that immediate time. You have handled yourself well, and you have been poked from the get-go, but you have also LEARNED many things from posters who were not rude, or poked too hard. Im ashamed I brought you here, because it embarasses me that those I wanted opionions from (the majority here) were out shouted by a few others who for some reason cant resist sharpening their sharp stick on your head. I had no idea you would be getting what youre getting. Im sorry. I wont come back to this thread, because it pains me to see the downright hatefulness. I dont understand that if one doesnt approve of what you are doing, then why attack? Just say you dont approve and move on. Myself, I saw no harm in what RM is doing and said so. It has come out that maybe RM IS doing something it shouldnt...and you have been made aware of it (nicely and not so nicely).
As originator of this thread, I could have it locked, but I would just get reamed for that, since I invited you in the first place. All I can say is that if the Moderators think its getting out of hand, they are welcome to use their discretion to do so on their own. Meanwhile, what I said to you in email, Steven, I meant. They are a tough crowd; knowledgeable, strong and very "in-your-face". They have helped me tremendously when I first started selling on ebay. They also can make me cringe at times. Im cringeing now, so I will avoid this thread. Thanks for coming here when I sent the link...and accept my apologies if you think I led you into the lion den. You DID learn some things, yes? Good luck, Steven, in whatever you do.
And no, I was not refering to you shaani. However, you wont let it go that he said "none of your busienss" and apologized. I am mostly refering to raglady. That was downright rude and uncalled for. If she represents a PS, Im glad Im not one anymore.
posted on January 27, 2001 02:05:34 PM
My name is in the contact info., I believe; I hadn't know that was the deteriming factor -- I will be sure to ask my mother to change this information.
posted on January 27, 2001 02:35:48 PM
As an outsider to the whole argument, I must say that Schoppenhaur was correct when he said; "People argue to feel satisfied." I deeply apologize to those on this board who have true intentions on learning about ReliableMerchants. However, to the others, learn to control your animal instincts. Tolstoy writes in his short story entitled "The Kreutzer Sonata" We are animals. All of us. We use marriage as an excuse." Leaving out the part of marriage, I think it is clear that most of our human instincts are based on animal intincts. We 'dis' to feel superior.
There are those others who came in her with true intentions, however, went sour. Nietschze writes, "Most contradictions stem from the mere fact that the original statement was presented in a provoking manner." I apologize to you. Its not your fault that it turned into an argument.
To sum, I dont want to seem like a moderator, or someone who is seeking superiority. I want you to look at your life, you probably have a wife/husband, and kids. Look at how you would act socially, to the face of the person, and then list. This poor seventeen year old, who came here out of pure curiosity is getting destroyed, as is his business. If you dont like the business, dont respond. If youre interested in it, respond. As far as his previous history, (ie. selling on eBay, 'bogus' diet pills, whatever else the case may be,) drop it! He started college at 16. Skipped two gradees, did we do that? Yes, he probably even inhaled, who cares?! That has nothing to do with ReliableMerchants.
Thank you.
Menachem
Sorry! Success rate is 85%. Refund is available! Best of luck in future diets