posted on January 28, 2001 10:18:43 PM new
Twin [[[hugs]]] Count me in, too. Someone will always be around to "play devil's advocate" (= "Take a good idea and try to negate it" - but I think your idea to co-op in the first place was brilliant. I had been thinking something similar but didn't say it because I am too new here and too in-experienced in this field. But I am not inexperienced in common sense and street smarts, and it didn't take a rocket scientist to see all the unhappy people at ebay, and yet not a lot of people were DOING anything about it. YOU are not like that Twin, you ALWAYS try to do something about it, whether that is trying other auctions sites or tossing ideas around about a co-op. Sure there will be SO many things to deal with, bugs to work out. etc... but the idea itself is the start. Everything can be worked out a step at a time. Count me in to the group of people who can donate a little bit to start it and who won't listen to some negative thinkers try to shoot it down. When people really want something, want to do something, create something, they CAN DO it. What is so hard about that concept? If ebay could work, why wouldn't this? You are right Steve Twinsoft, it was YOU PEOPLE who made ebay work. So of COURSE it can work again... but only BETTER this time. By the way, someone very close to me is a truly brilliant - I mean GENIUS - programmer/consultant/etc. (another old hippie) who I think will LOVE this idea. I have to talk to her before I say anything more. But I am very interested in this idea, Steve. So what is next? Who is really interested? What is our next step? Ideas?
Seriously. Rocker
posted on January 28, 2001 10:57:49 PM new
Molly, I share your concerns. I do not have money to invest right now. I also want to make my position clear. (Especially if I'm the one holding the money.) The $100 initiation fee does not grant any special rights, privileges or benefits. Its purpose is to establish a small group of interested persons to form a planning committee. There is no need for a huge committee.
The co-op model already exists and can easily be adapted for our needs. We don't have to worry about this turning into another eBay, as long as we take a minimum of care ahead of time.
Also, Jamie mentioned an AW review this week of a new auction site called "SnapRat." The kid started an auction site out of his house with a $500 "out of the box" auction software kit. Take a look at it: http://www.snaprat.com. We don't need to generate a million in start-up capital. This is a grass roots movement whose success depends on its members. Not on start-up capital.
Look this whole thing is as easy as falling off a log. Those barriers (time, effort, money) aren't there. They are normal fears. We just need to keep moving forward and not let this drop off the charts. GratefulDad About Me
posted on January 28, 2001 11:03:26 PM new
I have only gotten about 1/2 way through this thread and I HAVE to go to bed! Fascinating and exciting from what I have read.
The link below MAY be of interest as it is being mentioned elsewhere as a 'cooperative site.' I have NOT looked into it at all .. haven't had the time. Thought some of you might be interested in checking it out though. Hoping someone more 'savvy' (and awake) than I might take a look at it and comment.
posted on January 28, 2001 11:10:06 PM new
BTW. please don't take my tone as condescending or harsh. I want to preserve the co-op idea in it simplest terms. There's talk that the idea will fold because it's too complicated or expensive. I disagree with that and I think it's important to maintain a forward momentum. Let's take this to the next level, establish a small planning committee where we can function without overloading. We don't need a miracle we only need a little effort.
posted on January 29, 2001 04:35:39 AM new
MOLLY -
"I can't get past the posts that say charge listing fees to keep junk off the site or, pay to get in or, pay a monthly membership fee... So many of the same situations that have, in the past weeks, caused serious uproars"
That's the way a planning committee works. You throw out ALL KINDS of ideas, then lay them out on the table and discuss the consequences of each ... then you consult with the database designers and programmers and see if any are not feasilble to do.
If you think THIS is contentious, you should see an in-person design meeting
And there will be a way for small-scale sellers to join later! They are what built eBay and what are being squeezed out of eBay. The goal is a site free of the "it's only a dollar" mentality, where people PAY for the resources they use and the activities that benefit the site as a whole, but don't pay for ANYONE's next Mercedes.
TWINSOFT:
"externally there would be very little difference between a co-op site and any other online auction house. Trimming the "fat" (or, fat-cats) out of the equation would result in lower fees"
EXACTLY. With NO STOCKHOLDERS to keep happy, no stock options to keep profitable, no financial analysts hovering over the balance sheets, and no albatrosses like Butterfield hanging around our necks, we can concentrate on being an AUCTION SITE.
posted on January 29, 2001 07:55:58 AM new
You folks should look into how traditonal co-operatives are formed and run.
You also need to decide immediately what your primary goal is. As I see it you have only two choices.
#1 To make more money via your online auctions by cutting the overhead injected by a profit oriented auction venue.
#2 To have more control over your home based business.
Radh posted fairly early on that "I think people are hoping for a project far more inclusive and exceedingly democratic."
I can tell you from my own experiences with organizations and businesses that there is always a core group of individuals at the heart of any enterprise, no matter how inclusive or democratic it may seem. And those individuals, by dint of their effort, call the shots.
Any organization that is perfectly democratic is doomed to failure unless each and every individual is willing to accept compromise.
So, if you are considering joining this co-op, be prepared to accept the decision of the majority and the guidance of those few folks who are willing to put in the sweat equity to get the co-op going.
posted on January 29, 2001 08:21:29 AM new
codasaurus, I don't think anyone is deluding themselves. The democratic process that's inherent in the co-op management refers to the decision-making involvement of its members.
When people work closely on ANY endeavor, there will always be differences of opinion. Within a co-op, though, the final decisions are made through a concensus of the majority, versus the select few powers-that-be in a traditional organization.
Again, the Bylaws are paramount, and their ability to provide stability during otherwise rocky disputes cannot be emphasized enough.
During the co-op's formation, as much or more attention must be placed on crafting a strong set of Bylaws as is devoted to software issues, server space, or any of the other myriad of considerations.
Edited to respond to your comment,
<You also need to decide immediately what your primary goal is. As I see it you have only two choices:
#1 To make more money via your online auctions by cutting the overhead injected by a profit oriented auction venue.
#2 To have more control over your home based business.>
Both of these objectives are met with the formation of a co-op. They are each part-and-parcel of the cooperative concept.
[ edited by fountainhouse on Jan 29, 2001 08:26 AM ]
posted on January 29, 2001 08:30:19 AM new
I agree with you code. However the mass can always vote people in and out of any important role in the co-op. Believe me it will be easier to cause change in this structure than getting ebay, yahoo, or Amazon to listen!
"You also need to decide immediately what your primary goal is. As I see it you have only two choices:
#1 To make more money via your online auctions by cutting the overhead injected by a profit oriented auction venue.
#2 To have more control over your home based business."
Actually I think you can do both. I think we can have more control over the platform that allows us to have a home based business that will also make us more money online and outperform even mighty ebay while reducing the costs.
CODASAURUS: Of course, a co-op is run by MAJORITY voting.
Anyway, I think many of the issues you and Pat brought up earlier are important considerations.
ROSALYN: Thanks SO MUCH for finally posting to this messagethread. I've been waiting for many absentees to show up and explain what's really transpiring.
You mentioned, "Let the Disney corps list, maybe in a "large corporation" category - but they have to play on the same level playing field as everyone else - no special priviledges, no special terms allowed, and no say as to what else can be listed on the site."
I have NO interest in the creation of yet another venue for the showcasing of merchandise of Big Biz and megamultinational corporations.
The OAUA is supposed to be announcing something about the Cooperative they have ALREADY been working on for a long time, something I saw mentioned at the eZboard.
I have NO interest in a cooperative which does not strictly and firmly concentrate solely on the HOBBY sellers, SMALL microbusinesses, and stay strictly attuned to the needs & wishes of the INDIVIDUALS.
CODASAURUS: I have been exposed to co-ops my ENTIRE lifetime, and please believe me when I tell you that my wishes for am INCLUSIONARY ORGANIZATION with a democratic slant are not delusionary.
WHERE the issue may be a tad delusionary is that it may well be, that except for RL humans in one 3-D environment, the cooperative concept may not translate well to cyberspace until the advent of electronic identification, there is no way to really know where the votes are really coming from.
I'm not putting up ONE CENT, much less ANY energy for the creation of ANOTHER place for megabuck corps to UNLEASH their millions of listings which inundate the INTERESTING items offered by I-N-D-I-V-I-D-U-A-L-S.
AND besides, I wanna find out what the OAUA COOPERATIVE is, whenever that info might actually be released.
posted on January 29, 2001 08:46:41 AM new
There are already models for our co-operative in place. The International Co-operative Alliance is over 100 years old and has over 350,000,000 (million) members worldwide. The ICA is so huge, they have their own U.N. charter. The are the big co-op movement and provide a model for developing private co-ops.
Toyranch raised the point of co-op members assuming that their $100 membership assures them "bitching rights." That is not the way it works. All co-op members must educate themselves about what the co-op is and what it does. They must all share an equal part in its operation. Including listing quality items. That is the way co-ops work. Not raising huge capital and then bringing in expensive third-party solutions.
The Bylaws are there to anticipate and handle policy issues. There is no actual governing. The day to day workings are decided by all members in required regular meetings.
posted on January 29, 2001 08:54:06 AM new twinsoft: I have been exposed to co-ops my ENTIRE LIFE, so I do know how they are run.
However, I have absolutely NO interest in yet another online marketplace for the showcasing of multiple listings of millions of pieces of mdse from the megamultinational Korporations.
I am only interested in a proposed cooperative which SOLELY focuses on the plight of HOBBY Sellers, MICROBUSINESSES and INDIVIDUAL Entrepeneurs.
I have NO interest in what is developing here, and I have NO interest in not including people from the www3 Consortium, and others mentioned in earlier posts.
posted on January 29, 2001 09:01:12 AM new
And for the benefit of anyone out there who is laughing so hard that they have tears rolling down their face, because they consider me to be hopelessly naive, let me briefly state:
The Internet empowers I-N-D-I-V-I-D-U-A-L-S
What we are currently witnessing is simply an aberation, and it will NOT last for long!
The Future of the Internet belongs to INDIVIDUALS.
One day, eBay will be the sole utility whereby people sell & buy from oneanother all over the globe. Meantime, I am very bored with the oline aberations evident throughout ecommerce.
MY SOLE INTEREST IN EVEN DISCUSSING A CO-OPERATIVE, is only for the positive impact that it may have on the lives and livlihoods of I-N-D-I-V-I-D-U-A-L-S who run microbusinesses, or are hobby sellers or are sole proprietors.
posted on January 29, 2001 09:02:01 AM new
Radh, there are a lot of opinions coming in so let's try to keep the communication channels open. Before we can have an intelligent subject we all need to educate yourselves on what the co-op is and how it works. Stand back, take a deep breath and relax.
posted on January 29, 2001 09:04:02 AM new
twinsoft, I have no problem with fronting $100 towards a "good faith" fund. Personally, I think it's a good way to get a handle on the number of sellers serious about their commitment to this endeavor.
However, as I posted on the other board, if the questions about the $100 pre-dues (or whatever you want to call it), begins to overshadow our primary purpose, I propose we dispense with it.
Planning costs us nothing. We don't need cash until the fundraising portion of the planning begins, which, according to the Co-Op Primer web site I posted yesterday, occurs *after* the groundwork is laid.
Here's another copy of the planning stages:
1. Hold a meeting of leading persons to discuss a need that forming a cooperative might meet.
2. Hold an exploratory meeting of interested persons. Vote whether to continue. If affirmative, select a steering committee.
3. Conduct a survey to determine cooperative feasibility.
4. Hold a second general meeting to discuss the survey results. Vote on whether to proceed.
5. Conduct a market or supply and cost analysis.
6. Hold a third general meeting to discuss the results of the market or supply and cost analysis. Vote by secret ballot on whether to proceed.
7. Conduct a financial analysis and develop a business plan.
8. Hold a fourth general meeting to hear results of the financial analysis. Vote on whether to proceed. If affirmative vote on whether the steering committee should remain intact or whether changes should be made.
9. Draw up necessary legal papers and incorporate.
10. Call a meeting of all potential charter members to adopt the bylaws. Elect a board of directors.
11. Call the first meeting of the board of directors and elect officers. Assign responsibilities to implement the business plan.
12. Conduct a membership drive.
13. Acquire capital - develop a loan application package.
14. Hire a manager
15. Acquire facilities
16. Start up operations.
posted on January 29, 2001 09:12:11 AM new
twinsolft: I have been exposed to co-ops my ENTIRE LIFE!!
Say, what do any of you know about the already-formed cooperative of the OAUA? I read about it on your board last night, and today reston ray kindly provided this link:
posted on January 29, 2001 09:19:17 AM new
Radh, we've got people complaining about the InfoCD junk sellers and others complaining about the megamerchant retailers. We haven't even face our first panty thread yet. If it were up to each of us to ban sales we don't like, there would be precious few listings left. If eBay were only about antiques, I never would have joined or stayed. One of the advantages of a co-op is that decisions are made by a body of members, each member having an equal say. That's scary for some people. It also requires trust, cooperation and some compromise. One man, one vote is not a perk, it is an absolute requirement. A co-op requires active participation from its members. Differences about who sells what can be worked out.
posted on January 29, 2001 09:22:10 AM new
Hey radh, perhaps you could calm down a tad.
There are many thoughts and ideas out there. If you don't want to participate then please don't. If you want to be constructive super.
Many things can happen when a process starts like this. Your opinion, or mine, isn't more valuable than any others so please don't flame anyone. Let's stick to seeing if this can be done and how?
We all can be a part of the solution or part of the problem and some of us can be part of both!
Twinsoft and I mentioned that there could be other groups out there soon enough and there probably will be.
The idea is to take some action and get this going.
posted on January 29, 2001 09:31:42 AM newFountainhouse, the $100 pre-dues is Canvid13's suggestion. He can probably explain it better than I. At some point, we will need what I believe is called "risk money," that is, a minimum we are willing to invest as a risk venture.
At Jamie's suggestion, I agreed to check with my bank regarding an escrow account. I'm not thrilled with the responsibility of maintaining the escrow account, but I am willing to handle that part of it. I am willing to keep a list of folks who have signed up.
At any rate, I agree with Jamie that we need to start moving ahead with this. Whatever time frame is necessary, but we should keep moving ahead.
posted on January 29, 2001 09:39:35 AM new
My head is spinning with thoughts and I'm not getting my packing done for shipping .
But...I think where the money is concerned we need to put it where our mouths are!
By having all interested parties contribute the $100.00 is going to show us that there is a serious following for this idea and just how many will commit. I know if I throw my $100.00 into the ring I'm going to be in for what ever it takes.
Put it in a trust/escrow or whatever so it can start drawing interest.
30 days...from now we should have the word out enough and enough cash to really move forward. As we are doing this formulate the ideas and come up with a workable model.
NOW...should this fall through then I quess a refund is in order with interest!
To address the BIG sellers with new/repeat items. I really liked the suggestion of a warehouse category.
OR...like I've been saying on these boards for a year now.
Have 2 sections....one for Retail/New and one for Antiques and Collectables.
posted on January 29, 2001 09:54:15 AM new
That is fine to seperate the old stuff and new.
One of the things we need is to have the people who will be listing in them define what the categories should be.
It should not be hard to ask for a category if your item does not have a home. You could even create provisional categories pending a periodic vote of the members.
One question to put to members is do you want some categories to be moderated and some open. Will the members vote to ban or limit listings for things that can be argued are of interest in any category like auction software because anyone looking at anything on an auction may be interested. And what controls on straight impulse items like pocket knives and laser pointers?
Packer & Fountain: To clarify the $100.00. It would be held in trust. It also would be a barometer of the true interest.
If we get 500-1000 sellers who pay $100.00 to join the co-op that would be big news. It would also show a real desire to get this going.
It would also be 50-100K to start the site get off of the ground. We will need legal work to form the non-profit site. Equipment, engineering and support. Of course we'd have a committee to come up with a preliminary budget that would have to ratified by the group. Once up we would of course accept new members who agreed to abide by the bylaws.
The fact is that with 50-100 K in 30 days plus most of these folks either spending a montly listing account fee of around $50.00 or list fees the site would be funded to get going.
For this site to work in my opinion it has to really work well.
As for a "Warehouse" category, we need to have organization for all sections and categories.
I initially proposed that the co-op be divided into "States" like the US except for example the state I belonged to would be the video/dvd sellers.
Based on traffic we might have two reps while antiques had 4 reps. Again, this is only an idea I've thrown out. Not structural by any means.
The point is that the folks selling baseball cards would be responsible for the feel of that part of the site. They after all are the ones that deal with this at the front door! The card people could elect their rep(s) to be on the main governing board.
Twinsoft also has discussed technology evolving so that we could almost napster ourselves as an auction entity at some point?
posted on January 29, 2001 10:08:24 AM new
Jamie: I have NO further interest in this proprosal until I learn precisely what the brains & braun of the OAUA have already done in the cause of the formation of a cooperative.
I am not a member of the OAUA, so I know NO details whatsoever, but reston ray provided this link: http://www.dealsniper.com/plaza/
Perhaps neomax is correct that there may be a better investment of our money, elsewhere.
I do NOT know; in any event, I intend to wait and see just what the plans and goals of the OAUA are, in regards to the formation of a cooperative.
I do not have the health, the education, the time, the money, the energy to RE-INVENT THE WHEEL, if indeed, that proverbial wheel is already in a state of creation, and for all I know, it's already in a state of PRE-Launch.
i dunno!
I'm not a member of the OAUA, and thus have NO information.
But I have PLENTY OF PATIENCE, and intend to wait and see what they have ALREADY collectively done.
If nothing else, I do find the one webpage to be very attractive.
OAUA has no plans to form a co-op; OAUA IS essentially already a member-owned and member-run co-op.
What is being discussed, as I understand it, is the creation of a member-run and member-owned alternative auction site. This is something that OAUA has no plans to do (we're got plenty on our plate already), but would likely support as it has the potential to benefit online auction sellers, including meny of our members.
posted on January 29, 2001 10:11:28 AM new
First, I would like to thank everyone who contributed their kind words and very helpful information to my previous post of financial woes. Thank you, I'm beginning to understand now.
Second, I, too, am going to bring up the fact that the OAUA is supposedly finalizing their efforts to institute a sellers co-op. I have contacted them this morning to attempt to get some info on this. I know NOTHING about it or the parameters of membership or anything else but, I feel it would be in our best interests to find out more about the OAUA endeavors before we proceed on with this co-op venture.
If anybody else knows more about the OAUA's work, that negates my post, please interject. I think it is very important not to duplicate efforts if that is, in fact, what could happen here.
posted on January 29, 2001 10:20:20 AM new
steve: thanks for your input.
can you please tell us anything more about http://www.dealsniper.com/plaza/ - without, of course, giving away any proprietary information.
Frankly, that is the *nicest* webpage I've surfed to in YEARS.
LOL!
Steve: I am truly outtA herE, as I have NO interest in the creation of yet another online auction venue which is laden down with the mega-listings of the megaKorporations.
But I'd like to thank you for answering my questions above.
posted on January 29, 2001 10:27:31 AM new
Hi radh:
That page was formed by an OAUA member, and it grew out of a discussion a couple weeks ago on the OTWA discussion board about OTWA members' desires to buy from and support other members. Although many of the folks are OAUA members, it's not an OAUA project.
You'd have to contact the Leon (dealsniper) to find out if he has any further plans for it.
OAUA has a similar "Member-to-Member Discounts" page here:
posted on January 29, 2001 10:30:33 AM new
In another messagethread I was informed that the link: http://www.dealsniper.com/plaza/ is actually to an OTWA project.
SAME reaction, different acronym.
I plan to wait and see just what OTWA or OTWA/Honesty are planning, IF anything, and to see how I believe that any such plans may (or may not) have a positive impact upon INDIVIDUAL Netizens.
posted on January 29, 2001 11:05:56 AM new
Radh, if you have misgivings then please let's hear them. This is exactly what we need to discuss. Walking away in a huff at this point won't prove anything because we haven't even gotten started yet.
posted on January 29, 2001 11:16:29 AM new
More random thoughts.
It seems to me that we really have 2 or 3 different sets of goals being discussed here.
1: The all inclusive cooperative version, big sellers, mid level sellers, occasional sellers. All offering any and all wares of their choice.
2: A somewhat less inclusive movement aimed at individuals and micro-businesses.
3: A much more limited interest in category specific efforts.
All provide interesting opportunities. And it may well be that they all could work well together if planned and executed carefully.
Seperate but coordinated efforts in these 3 directions might provide a greater opportunity and chance of success than trying to make everyone fit into one big box.
Still more random thoughts may or may not be forthcoming.
posted on January 29, 2001 11:29:29 AM new
Radh .. the dealsniper.com plaza was started by an individual on the OTWA board .. Leon (aka dealsniper). He posted a thread and we OTWA users simply asked him to include us and our links.
I'm listed on there .. morningglory! There is a link that can be pasted into auctions. I haven't done this yet as I have had one of those weeks! It started when AW AuctionManager went down with all my auction templates and 'ready-to-go' ebay auctions in it. It's been downhill from there.
Anyway .. it's a simple (and excellent I might add) concept at this point and Leon very graciously set it up!
NOT tuition4years anymore anywhere but here!
Any typos are due to use of new keyboard .. spilled milk in the old one this morning
___________
I have a memory like a steel trap .. unfortunately it's rusted shut!
This topic is 10 pages long: 1234new5new6new7new8new9new10new
- but I think your idea to co-op in the first place was brilliant. I had been thinking something similar but didn't say it because I am too new here and too in-experienced in this field. But I am not inexperienced in common sense and street smarts, and it didn't take a rocket scientist to see all the unhappy people at ebay, and yet not a lot of people were DOING anything about it. YOU are not like that Twin, you ALWAYS try to do something about it, whether that is trying other auctions sites or tossing ideas around about a co-op. Sure there will be SO many things to deal with, bugs to work out. etc... but the idea itself is the start. Everything can be worked out a step at a time. Count me in to the group of people who can donate a little bit to start it and who won't listen to some negative thinkers try to shoot it down. When people really want something, want to do something, create something, they CAN DO it. What is so hard about that concept? If ebay could work, why wouldn't this? You are right Steve Twinsoft, it was YOU PEOPLE who made ebay work. So of COURSE it can work again... but only BETTER this time. 
) than I might take a look at it and comment.
