I've been documenting my grievances regarding ebay for the last couple of months and have recently sent a complaint to the Federal Trade Commission in Washington, D.C. The commission is there to protect us and the more of us that lodge complaints, the stronger our collective voices become. Here is some information on the various codes we can use to file the complaints.
(15 U.S.C. §§ 41-58, as amended)
Under this Act, the Commission is empowered, among other things, to (a) prevent unfair methods of competition, and unfair or deceptive acts or practices in or affecting commerce; (b) seek monetary redress and other relief for conduct injurious to consumers; (c) prescribe trade regulation rules defining with specificity acts or practices that are unfair or deceptive, and establishing requirements designed to prevent such acts or practices; (d) conduct investigations relating to the organization, business, practices, and management of entities engaged in commerce; and (e) make reports and legislative recommendations to Congress.
As you think about how the above statue may help you, think about the banner ads that ebay places on our auction pages, the new rules restricting our business practices while at the same time claiming to be only a venue, the frequent down time, how they handle our complaints about fraud and their newest scheme of putting spam in our ETA's. Make notes about how ebay affects your sales, your life and business.
Go on-line to: [link]http://www.ftc.gov/[/link] and fill out the on-line complaint form.
Keep your comments professional and as unemotional as possible. Your complaint will carry more weight that way.
I'm also writing a letter to the media and need as many signatures as possible. Is anyone interested in signing it? I will post it here once I am finished writing it. If you want any of your comments, thoughts and opinions included, please post them here.
Keep the faith that the FTC will evidently act on these complaints. Why. Because Ebay is adversely affecting the lives and businesses of millions of small businesses. While they were claiming to be only a venue, these actions may not have warranted a second look but actions and new policies have changed their "only a venue" stance. I will soon post an email address where you can write to me directly.
Good luck to all of us who may want to participate and good luck to those that don't!!!!
I thought the FTC was the Federal Trade Commission??
Anyway Ebay seems to be able to get by with anything they want. They don't enforce the rules. They BREAK their own rules by selling our user info (breech of contract)ETC ETC ETC. They put things in their TOS that CAN'T be legal IE: we cannot be held responsible for yada yada yada. Their "Fraud protection is a joke. Safe harbor is a BIGGER joke. ETC ETC ETC.
BUT THEY SURE SELL IT DON'T THEY???
Good ol GreedEbay. I hope they curl up and die. I'm GONE!!
It's called PMS because Mad Cow Disease was taken.
The statement below is TRUE
The statement above is FALSE.
It is the Federal Trade Commission. I need to fix that.
Ebay does DO what they want. They need to be held responsible at some point. One of these days a complaint will be made and it WILL change the way they do business. It is only a matter of time. Sellers need to fight that which affects their livlihood. I won't lay down and take it anymore.
I am going to continue to write and fight! Someday it will pay off. I am sure of it.
posted on February 9, 2001 01:50:04 AM
If you have something you want to say and don't want to include your comments here, just click on my name and email me.
~~Anais~~
posted on February 9, 2001 02:32:02 AM
Anais,
Great post.
Sign me up.
Right is right. Until someone with Large Dollars sees the potential of this on-line cash cow, we are stuck with ebay.
UPS went for years without a challenge. Then Fed EX entered the ground shipping fray, RPS did the same, The USPS is also giving UPS a run for their money. And it is being felt by UPS. Their revenue was down during the Christmas season (haven't seen other numbers though)
The point is that it can be done. ATT, Microsoft, the Railroads of yore have all had their come-uppance.
Yes, dealing with the R&R's of ebay is more than confusing...it's NUTS. The latest, if you haven't looked, is the total encroachment by ebay of our customers at the end of auction notices. Now, remember they are OUR customers. EBAY IS A VENUE. A court has determined that ebay is not liable in the sports category case where there was alleged fraud dealing with certain sports memorabilia. Ebay was exonerated because they were a VENUE only and not responsible for the actions of the lister.
Take that one step further.
If, as a venue only, does ebay have a right to interfere with your end of auction notification, to entice YOUR customer to purchase flowers or shipping services, that ebay receives monetary value from, legal without your consent. I think not. As a venue only, ebay defers all rights of the product to the owner and new owner (buyer) without any indemnity on ebay's part. Therefore any part of the transaction outside of the posting (venue) of the transaction is the sole property of the buyer and seller. For ebay to step into the transaction AFTER the transaction is complete (i.e. End Of Auction Notification)is beyond ebay's mandate as a venue. To prove this point I will say that ebay does not pay any Non-Paying_Bidders purchase. Their policy is that they are only a VENUE.
Now, knowing that, how can ebay take your listing and add spam to the EOA for ebay's, and only ebay's, monetary benefit? By the time the EOA appears, ebay is out of the picture as a venue. When they add spam to the End Of Auction notification they are a part of the POST SALE process. Something they claim they are not responsible for, and something they fought for stongly (and won in court because they are only a venue).
The end of auction notice is a "courtesy" of ebay. It is not necessary since we can go to OUR listing to find the winning bidder and contact them all by ourselves. That's what makes ebay's EOA SPAM when they include a third party commercial interest. They,as a venue, are out of the transaction...the deal is done. Anything after that makes them an active participant in breaking the law.
posted on February 9, 2001 02:47:22 AM
GOOD POINT PUDDY. I wonder if we get a commission on what THEY sell to customers that WE paid GreedEbay a FEE to get??
I like the "venue" angle better though. Ebay CLAIMS to be a "venue" to avoid liability. If they are actively harvesting our customers without our consent are the really only a venue. I like that.
They aren't a venue. They're an accessory.
I still think I should get a fee for them using MY sales for their benefit. I guess I can just pick an arbitrary figure like maybe $1.25 contact fee plus a 5% commission on any goods or services sold.
Sound good?
Let's see now. 100 auctions per month at $1.25 = $125.00 plus a 5% commission. HMMMM. Maybe we should just all bill them $1.25 per auction and trust them on the commission.
The statement below is TRUE
The statement above is FALSE.
It's called PM$ because Mad Cow Disease was taken. (disclaimer : this is a joke. No disrespect is intended toward women or cows)
[ edited by horizonod on Feb 9, 2001 02:52 AM ]
I made some of the very points you cited above in my last complaint to the FTC. Ebay can no longer claim they are only a "venue". The FTC is aware of this.
Their recent spamming with ads for FTD and UPS does leave a lot of us with the feeling that they will stop at nothing until they are stopped. I'm infuriated with their future involvement with our email and that they had the gall to claim it was to stop spam was pitiful. They have never cared about their sellers period. Nor have they cared enough about buyers or sellers to stop some of the big fraud that happens on their site. Why now all the concern over spam? Pleeease!
Ebay systems are too unstable to handle our email in a responsible fashion. I see big problems coming for a lot of us.
As most of us....I could go on and on about Ebay Follies but most of us has heard and read all about it!
Thanks for sharing your experience and opinions. I hope more will join us. Oh and thanks for the change!
~~Anais~~
[ edited by anais on Feb 9, 2001 03:11 AM ]
I think most of us will agree that Ebay is no longer just a "Venue". I think it will be interesting to see how this all plays out in future lawsuits against them. Not to mention how the FTC will view this.
I have a friend who is a professor at a Law School on the West Coast. Recently during a phone conversation I explored the possibility of having a group of law students take a look at Ebay and their business practices. He ask that I write whatever information I gather in a letter directed to him. He will then evaluate it's merit as a project. He said on the face of it, it looks promising that it would be something interesting to pursue. I am excited about the possibilties while at the same time keeping in mind that no promises were made.
Yes, Ebay will be held accountable someday!
~~Anais~~
posted on February 9, 2001 04:45:55 AM
Someone wrote and told me how great they thought ebay is. I respect opposing opinions. I know there are still folks that love ebay. This is not about changing any one's mind. We all have to evaluate how ebay affects our lives and businesses and out of that evaluation comes an opinion. On whatever side that may fall on, I say Good Luck! We all need it.
~~Anais~~
posted on February 9, 2001 06:55:14 AM"Make notes about how ebay affects your sales, your life and business."
Surely all of the business moguls here are familiar with the concept of "cost/benefit ratios". When the costs of a service outweigh the benefits (cost/benefit ratio < 1), then it's time to eliminate that service from your busines. IOW, if the net effect of Ebay on your sales, your life and your business is negative (the loss and problems it creates outweigh the income/profit it generates), then it's time to stop using Ebay. As Ebay users, we agree to abide by their terms of use for as long as we use their service. (I very much doubt that all the issues raised here weren't blown past the corporate lawyers for an opinion before the respective policies were implemented, so good luck in having them declared a violation of Ebay's user agreement, illegal, unconstitutional or whatever.) Do you try to coerce ALL your vendors to do their business your way when you don't like their policies, or do you change vendors? If your answer is "But I'd lose too much by giving up Ebay!", then the benefits of Ebay are obviously outweighing the cost in your situation. Believe me, if the biggest crisis in your life and business right now is the fact that Ebay is using your contacts and making money off them, you haven't got much to complain about. Have you ever thought about what this would be costing us if they didn't have any other sources of revenue? Sorry, kids. There is no free lunch. There are darn few ways to generate an income that don't involve some expense and learning to overcome, improvise and adapt (IOW, putting up with other people's idiotic and "unfair" ways of doing business). Most of those that do will eventually land you in jail, when you get caught. Welcome to the real world of business!
posted on February 9, 2001 07:36:41 AM
I think of ebay is like my local classifieds. Both are simply neutral mediums through which a buyer and seller may become connected. To expect my newspaper or ebay to hold everyone's hand throughout each transaction is naive, I think. One should really go and report the fraudulent sellers to the FTC and not Ebay.
posted on February 9, 2001 07:48:22 AM
Hi Pickersangel , Most of what you said doesn't apply to how I see it, but it has a lot of merit and I'm sure as the day passes you will have some company. I'm glad you dropped in and said your bit.
RB, I will do. It doesn't matter where you are from.
And
Smoothauction. I'm happy you have found a view which works for you.
posted on February 9, 2001 08:03:20 AM
Just wondering who exactly is holding a gun to your head forcing you to use Ebay's services? If you put the same amount of energy into selling on Ebay that you do b*tchin' about Ebay you would have nothing to complain about!! Oh, I forgot if there wasn't anything to complain about a lot of people would have nothing to do. Never mind.
posted on February 9, 2001 08:31:24 AM
Well, it's more fun to #*!@ about eBay than to sell sometimes. You just gotta know which buttons to push.
anais: if you want more cannon fodder, why not address VERO and abuses of the DMCA, eBays double standard when it comes to laws, and don't forget the foreign angles...
:\\\"Crystalline Sliver cannot be the target of spells or abilities.
posted on February 9, 2001 09:42:18 AMCrystalline_Sliver
I haven't had any experience with Vero and abuses of the DMCA.....fortunately. But, if someone wants to write to me about it I will include it in the next complaint.
posted on February 9, 2001 10:53:57 AM
The thing that is bothering everyone so much is the fact that EBAY is a MONOPOLY! Pure and simple. In the online auction arena there are NO alternatives to Ebay if you want any amount of success. Many of us signed on with Ebay BEFORE they where a monopoly. We fell in love with the Ebay auction dynamic which is slowly going away. We get mad then we turn around and make excuses for them. Sure we could leave but we're in love! True Ebay is free to do whatever they want as long as they don't break the law. And they have proved that to us many times in many ways.
posted on February 9, 2001 11:06:56 AM
anais ... wrt VeRO and the way eBay refuses to acknowledge complaints about very obvious copyright infringing items listed on their 'venue', Im not sure the FTC would be the right avenue to follow. I am attacking this problem with the assistance of the MPAA and RIAA. Eventually eBay will be told from someone high up in the real world that they cannot claim to be a soverign nation unto themselves, and that they cannot make their own rules that contradict those of the land.
I believe that after they have been notified about each illegal auction with hints on where they can conduct their "investigation", if they fail to take any action, they are abetting a criminal activity. I used to nag them about these types of listings, but after the last round where "Emmett" (eBay SafeHarbour) told me to stop emailing him (!), I have decided that "Once is Enough". I give them one heads-up now - if they choose to ignore it, well ....
posted on February 9, 2001 12:27:29 PM
I am not a seller, only a buyer. My pet peeve with Ebay is their censorship of international buyers and sellers. European or Australian (or anyone outside US/Canada) members are not allowed to even see the "mature audiences" listings, or allowed to sell in them. We get a message of: "In conformity with your national law, you may not buy or sell in this category." NOTHING in the preamble screen to mature audiences says we cannot go there... I do believe it took my credit card details to begin with, before finally telling me I couldn't go there.
The rule is farcical... To assume that anything on Ebay is against Dutch laws, with regard to "mature audience" material, is ridiculous. I have yet to see anything in the listings that would be illegal in the UK. Even here, yes HERE, adults are allowed to have sex, and we actually KNOW what genitalia look like! You can actually find shops that sell a range of goods similar to those offered in Ebay, but the prices are less attractive than on Ebay. I also feel it very wrong that no European sellers of adult items can use their "venue" - how's that for restrictive practices?
And their rationale for this restrictive practice? Because they can't cope with the plethora of national law. What happened to "just a venue"? What happened to their typical response of "caveat emptor"? It they are really concerned I might buy something illegal, why not tell me that some goods in the Adult listings may contravene local law, and that Customs may seize offending goods and that I may be prosecuted? No, Ebay has to ban EVERYTHING... from 1980 Playboys to XXX-videos (which are also legal to purchase in single copies for personal use).
Just a venue... my backside! And the sooner they are made to comply with their claim of being "just a venue", the better. At least then we would all know exactly where we stand.
posted on February 9, 2001 03:17:39 PMmusicman1313,
Most of us would agree with you about Ebay becoming a Monopoly. It is certainly part of my argument that Ebay violates many tenets of the Fair Trade Laws. I couldn't agree with you more.
Someone up above asked did I not think that Ebay has had their Corporate Attorneys looking at the changes for pitfalls and law violations. Of course they have. Just like MicroSoft's Attorneys were looking at what MicroSoft was doing. Just because a bunch of Corporate Attorneys are advising Ebay doesn't mean that they can be "soverign nation unto themselves" as RB likes to point out. (I like that phrase RB) Eventually the right person will get someone's attention and Ebay will have to change it's operating procedures and principles just like other Monopolies have been forced to. That's my hope anyway. And my Faith is strong!
RB, Thanks for your insight on Vero. I'm glad that you are pursuing this. Don't hesitate to post more information or write to me. I will include all information which I feel like I can argue and any information anyone has that can strengthen our position is appreciated and welcomed.
Minerva, Sounds very unfair to me. I've been to your country for an extended amount of time and know what you shared here is true. Just let me think about how I can approach this in the complaint.
~~Anais~~
[ edited by anais on Feb 9, 2001 03:19 PM ]
posted on February 9, 2001 07:06:53 PM
I don't understand the belief that ebay is a monopoly. They are certainly not the only on-line auction around. Many people in this forum complain that they are too expensive and restrictive, but if you look on these forums you will find that there are other sites with no or lower cost, and that have few restrictions. So what is the unfair advantage that ebay has?
Now, if ebay eliminated its fees in order to drive the others out of business, that would be a legitimate cause for action.
As for their rules and regulations, you do agree to abide by them when buying or selling. They do not appear to be engaging in any kind of actionable or discriminatory manner.
posted on February 9, 2001 07:35:19 PM
They are presumed a monopoly by some because they fit the legal definition of monopoly to those "some".
monopoly
n. a business or inter-related group of businesses which controls so much of the production or sale of a product or kind of product as to control the market, including prices and distribution.
eBay controls over 80% of the online auction market.
<<<As for their rules and regulations, you do agree to abide by them when buying or selling. They do not appear to be engaging in any kind of actionable or discriminatory manner.>>>
Key word- appear. they already have been challenged in Court a few times.
posted on February 9, 2001 09:38:18 PM
One of the many people who have emailed me saved me hours of research by sending me some specific information.
Two points he\she made were:
1. eBay is now an entity that can probably be considered a Monopoly.
2. eBay's new email law prevents free trade.
Additionally many of the actions taken by Ebay in the recent months threatens their stance as "just a venue"
The Fair Trade Law of 1999, CHAPTER II, MONOPOLIES, MERGERS AND CONCERTED
ACTIONS, cited in Article 10 states in part that,
No monopolistic enterprises shall-
1. directly or indirectly prevent any other enterprises from competing by unfair means;
2. improperly set, maintain or change the price for goods or the remuneration for services;
3. make a trading counterpart give preferential treatment without justification or otherwise abuse its market power.
For the purpose of my next complaint though I am more interested in Chapter III. In CHAPTER III, UNFAIR COMPETITION, Article 19 it states,
No enterprise shall have any of the following acts which is likely to lessen
competition or to impede fair competition:
1. causing another enterprise to discontinue supply, purchase or other business transactions with a particular enterprise for the purpose of injuring such particular enterprise;
2. treating another enterprise discriminatively without justification;
causing the trading counterpart(s) of its competitors to do business with itself by coercion, inducement with interest, or other improper means;
3. causing another enterprise to refrain from competing in price, or to
take part in a merger or a concerted action by coercion, inducement with interest,
or other improper means;
4. acquiring the secret of production and sales, information concerning trading counterparts or other technology related secret of any other enterprise
by coercion, inducement with interest, or other improper means; or limiting
its trading counterparts' business activity improperly by means of the requirements of business engagement.
In previous law suits, Ebay has been able to
apply the Safe Harbor provision of FTC law to themselves and avoid any liability or rsponsibility. Based on their recent policy changes they can no longer claim to be only "a venue" and I don't believe Safe Harbor will provide them the same kind of protection. My belief is based on comments made by a represenative of the FTC to me directly during one of my many phone calls to them. My belief has been made even stronger by emails I have received.
Many of you will read and see or at least presume what my arguments will be concerning the points made above. To those of you who don't, I apologize that I don't have time to write out a more comprehensive explanation point by point.
I apologize for the long post and a big thanks to all who have written to me. I am currently behind with email this topic has generated but I will get back to you soon.
posted on February 9, 2001 09:52:21 PM
BROOKLYNGUY.
You are so right. Everybody should just quit sticking up for silly things like principals, truth and fair play!!
Of course if we all thought that way 60 years ago the west coast would be Japanese, the East coast (you) would be speaking German ( if you have no Jewish herritage in which case you wouldn't be here AT ALL!!)
Ebay plays by a double standard. They "spin" out rules devoted entirely to alaying people fears of online auctions then they don't enforce the policy. IT IS THERE SIMPLY TO MAKE EBAY MONEY. THEY are allowed to dislodge any miniscule extra bit of revenue FOR THEMSELVES by selling our user info, spamming our emails, spamming our customers (ALL OF WHICH ARE AGAINST THE VERY RULES THEY AUTHORED) but let one of us put up an Alladvantage banner or a Paypal banner to try to get a few extra grains of profit out of the SPACE WE PAID THEM FOR and they just won't allow it!!
They don't allow independent auction searches to access EBAY which would only help sellers and buyers not to mention EBAY ETC. ETC. ETC.
They are just a very poor excuse for a fair business "venue".
Some people are still bothered by things like that.
The statement below is TRUE
The statement above is FALSE.
posted on February 10, 2001 01:24:37 AM
I almost forgot...
A few weeks back, I posted info on a response from eBay that refused to take serious action on a guy that was clearly violating US Counterfieting Laws of Currency.
The seller was selling "reproductions" that violated US Counterfiet Laws. I gave eBay the relevant info and the Title, and all they did in response is to tell me to file the damn report to the Local Secret Service Office and gave me their FAX to their Legal Department to pass along!!
(I did file it thought; all I had to do was take a friend to Lunch, and she's gonna investigate it further )
I still have the responses from Safeharbor stashed away. I'll see if I can download them into one Document and pass it along.
:\\\"Crystalline Sliver cannot be the target of spells or abilities.
posted on February 10, 2001 01:35:09 AM
I appreciate the heavy typing people had to do to enter the rules concerning monopoly activity. When their fingers have recovered, I hope they will have time to explain which, if any of these ebay is guilty of.
In fact, as I read these, wouldn't sites offering free listing be unfairly competing against ebay? They are giving away service just to steal customers away. If a foreign steel manufacturer was offering product below cost, it would be called "dumping" and probably be the start of trade sanctions.
I am assuming most of the posts here are from sellers, and unless they are generating revenue for charity, it is somewhat disingenous of them to accuse ebay of the horrible crime of wanting to make money.
posted on February 10, 2001 03:02:15 AM
I am just enjoying this one so much that I want to EMAIL ON.
Another thing that makes me cross about Ebay is this...
The change in policy re: email addresses means that those poor sods who are bidding on empty Playstation boxes are never going to have the chance to be warned that they are being scammed. And then, Ebay won't do anything about the box sellers, and their "fraud protection" will do nothing for the poor (well, stupid, sometimes) buyers either.
posted on February 10, 2001 05:31:27 AM
Damiarscotta wrote-
<<<In fact, as I read these, wouldn't sites offering free listing be unfairly competing against ebay? They are giving away service just to steal customers away. If a foreign steel manufacturer was offering product below cost, it would be called "dumping" and probably be the start of trade sanctions.>>>
Your thinking in the area of how that relates to monopolies is incorrect, and in fact the reverse of the monopoly argument. Monopolies because of their status can raise fees, institute whatever rules that MAY be repressive to the free comduct of trade OUTSIDE of itself, contract with other outside entities to do things like be a carrier for their advertising when they don't allow their users to do so, and in fact possibly do whatever they want because of the fact that their customers have no other REASONABLE place to go to conduct similar business because of the monopoly's control of the market. The classic example is the railroads at the turn of the century. You could walk across the country (Amazon), you could ride a mule (Yahoo), you could buy a car such as they were for an inordinate amount of money and try to cross the country that way (private auctions with say Butterfield's), hoping it wouldn't fall apart on the way, but if you really wanted to get somewhere, you'd have to ride the rails (eBay).
You can assume that these posts are from whomever you want to assume they're from, a lot of people other than sellers (or buyers) fully believe in the argumment.
