posted on February 9, 2001 03:35:29 PM new
I'm curious, Jaimie. How do AW community guidelines prevent you from telling Codasaurus what you perceive to be the benefits in joining a co-op?
posted on February 9, 2001 03:46:21 PM new
Begging your pardon, most honarable Twinsoft. You do not know this poster, and it is most rude and unseemly to presume that you do.
Your tactics of banning and censorship and the weak explainations that you use to excuse your actions are known to many.
Please avoid addressing this poster in such a manner, in future.
posted on February 9, 2001 03:50:23 PM newcodasaurus, I can't speak for others. I have expressed a desire to discuss alternatives to eBay. I think a lot more discussion and planning needs to take place before anyone starts collecting fees.
My personal concern is for small, "mom-and-pop" sellers who are being squeezed off eBay. Take a look around. eBay's new fees, Yahoo's new fees, Paypal's new fees, the post office fee hikes ... and all the auction support services too. And there's no relief in sight. eBay is clearly favoring bigger, corporate sellers. They're simply cutting the little sellers loose. What happens when eBay fees jump to $.50? And they will.
Obviously a co-op site should consider the needs of casual sellers. But that is not my own primary concern. My concern is with people, like me, who depend on eBay for their livelihood, and to pay the rent. Other sellers, who I'll call (for lack of a better word) "hobby sellers," aren't impacted as much by all the new fee increases and restrictive sales policies. I don't discount them, but they don't NEED the co-op like others do.
I agree with you that a recruiting war, and factionalization of interested parties, are in no one's best interest. It's downright laughable that co-op discussions are continuing in a half-dozen different places, with no agreement or cooperation. On the other hand, the word is getting out about alternatives.
In order for a co-op to succeed, each individual person must help and contribute. I would hope that through discussion we can educate members as to how a co-op works. What we have now is a bunch of people waving $100 bills and shouting, "What are YOU going to do for ME?" I'm afraid it's going take a little more than that, folks. But it's a start.
posted on February 9, 2001 03:59:22 PM new
Hello Twinsoft,
And therein lies the rub.
A co-op can only be successful if it addresses the needs of all its members. So, by definition an all encompassing online auction co-op is doomed.
Sellers and buyers have different needs. And I don't place any weight in the oft mentioned "many sellers are buyers as well" retort I have been hearing.
Sellers who depend on eBay for their livelihood or a significant amount of their income have different needs from the casual sellers.
Sellers in different specialties have needs that differ from sellers in other specialties.
Co-ops, by their very nature and definition are small groups composed of folks with remarkably similar goals and interests.
So, either start talking about a co-op that addresses the interests and needs of a very small and well defined group or continue in your exercise in futility.
posted on February 9, 2001 04:05:13 PM new
stockticker
posted on February 9, 2001 03:35:29 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm curious, Jaimie. How do AW community guidelines prevent you from telling Codasaurus what you perceive to be the benefits in joining a co-op?
Irene
________________________________________
Hi Irene,
I have posted the benefits of joining a co-op many, many, many times here on AW and I guess I'll just have to post it some more.
Hopefully a co-op will be non-profit, non-saleable, one member one vote, and non exclusive.
I can see many benefits of having a site of this nature. I am not suggesting that it will be free.
I feel, just my opinion, that I'd be happy to pay fees even as exorbinant as ePay's if I knew that I could build my business in a stable enviorment where I actually had a vote in the governing and future of the site.
Frankly folks it's going to take many different people with all sorts of ideas to make this work. In the last week we have recieved over 200 emails and most of them have been supportive. And frankly I'm not into making this a personal thing with any of you.
If you don't like what you're reading here or on any message board you don't have to participate. As much as I and others would love to have your input at the beginning of the process we will have to survive without it if you don't want to join.
The fact is that I'm really trying to find common ground with all of you and build something.
If you see me not posting back to someone it usually be because it's a negative comment or not something that we can grow on.
And AW does have fairly strict guidelines which I really don't want to break. They have been very kind up to date and I don't want to take advantage of that kindness.
If you want to debate some of the finer points and even get down and dirty about it there are places to do so. You can even email me or any of the other co-op folks if you like.
I just think posting random thoughts of negativity won't help the poster or anyone else. Again, that's just my thought.
Surely some of you have some ideas of what you want in a co-op? How you want it structured? Fees and services?? Marketing and advertising?
I mean, there's soooooo much to talk about and work on, why focus on who said what?
We welcome all to come and help build this site.
Let's build it NOW!!
Jamie
canvid13
[email protected]
514-270-7478
[ edited by canvid13 on Feb 9, 2001 04:29 PM ]
posted on February 9, 2001 04:23:28 PM new
And therein you have it.
"You can't build from Negativity. Let's try and see what we CAN do and take it from there. "
"random negativity"
You can't build anything EITHER when you characterize people's statements the way you characterize them above. The vast majority of people responding here (whether you'd call their responses "negative" or not) would LOVE to see a functional Coop. They are part of the auction users world, and they are stating their opinions NOT to hurt the process, but maybe to IMPROVE it by injecting what they think is reality into it, whether they're correct or not. This is why you need an uninvolved (emotionally and otherwise) EXPERT in dealing with Coop issues to do so. You think you're going to
gain support by calling people's considered opinions "random negativity?"
posted on February 9, 2001 04:38:58 PM new
tentwentytwo
posted on February 9, 2001 04:23:28 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And therein you have it.
"You can't build from Negativity. Let's try and see what we CAN do and take it from there. "
"random negativity"
You can't build anything EITHER when you characterize people's statements the way you characterize them above. The vast majority of people responding here (whether you'd call their responses "negative" or not) would LOVE to see a functional Coop. They are part of the auction users world, and they are stating their opinions NOT to hurt the process, but maybe to IMPROVE it by injecting what they think is reality into it, whether they're correct or not. This is why you need an uninvolved (emotionally and otherwise) EXPERT in dealing with Coop issues to do so. You think you're going to
gain support by calling people's considered opinions "random negativity?"
______________________________________
Just because I want to build on positives doesn't mean I am being negative to anyone or insulting them.
I didn't state anyone in particular in being negative.
A lot of folks have been doing a lot of work to get this movement moving.
Now we don't expect everyone to drop what they're doing and jump in with both feet but perhaps, just perhaps, people could post their concerns and worries in ways thay might be a bit more constructive.
Gee, I don't know about a co-op? I don't think there's much of a chance and everyone is going to go nutso, what's the point?
Now, I ask you how to go from a post like that? I know it's not a quote but what about?
How could we take on ebay or even Yahoo as a small upstart co-op? Even if we somehow got the funding together and got a site up how could we get the bidders to come? I don't know anything about how to do this and you probably don't either, why bother?
Now this post would still be negative but at least it's discussing the point?
All I'm asking of anyone is to discuss this. Yes, it's going to be hard to do, but it costs nothing to try and work this out.
You wouldn't believe some of the great ideas that have been emailed in.
QUESTION: Why is it that so many folks seem more comforatable emailing in their support and suggestions instead of posting them??
ANSWER: Perhaps it's because there's a small group of folks who rip at their ideas no matter what?
Just throwing that out. I'm not trying to attack or pick on anyone.
So here's a challenge to you TENTWENTYTWO and everyone else.
If you really want some sort of co-op. If you think there's even a remote chance of it coming to be. I challenge you all to post an idea, any idea of how to make this happen or what it will take to work.
posted on February 9, 2001 04:45:56 PM new
First, for codasaurus, size has nothing to do with the co-op structure. From the NCBA home page: "More than 20 (co-ops) have annual sales in excess of $1 billion. Credit unions have over 76 million members and assets in excess of $100 billion. Rural electric cooperatives operate more than half of the electric distribution lines in the United States and provide electricity for 26 million people.
There are approximately one million cooperative housing units serving households with a range of income levels and housing needs. Over 50 million Americans are served by insurance companies owned by or closely affiliated with cooperatives."
-----------
I was one of the most enthusiastic supporters of the co-op idea -- and I still am -- BUT my eagerness has been tempered by reality.
The crabs-in-a-bucket behavior exhibited by many posters in the various threads is disheartening, though not unexpected.
Mostly my dampened enthusiasm comes from the realization that the co-op will not come to be without at least a handful of sellers who have the time, commitment and wherewithall to make this their highest priority for the weeks or months it will take to get it off the ground.
Planning, preparing and running the co-op will take real work by real people. Posting messages is helpful as far as it goes, but at some point one or more of the planners will have to: 1) meet with potential financiers (I don't think an email grant/loan application will get us very far); 2) locate a suitable business address (unless we plan on renting server space rather than buy servers); 3) interview and hire a site manager; 4) oversee the hardware/software installation; 5) Etc.
Depending on your location, these tasks (and the myriad others not listed) may require time away from businesses, travel cost/time, etc.
I just haven't seen that level of commitment exhibited by anyone yet. This is not a criticism. I would love to be able to spend unlimited time and resources building a co-op because it *is* so important. Sadly, though, that doesn't change the fact that most of us don't have that luxury.
I'll be overjoyed if someone points out the flaw in my logic (or if a previously-unknown benefactor has surfaced)...
posted on February 9, 2001 05:01:28 PM new
Dare accepted.
OK, you want some of what would be considered by myself germane suggestions?
Don't put the cart before the horse. It's very nice (and I guess necessary) to (let me use an open a B&M store analogy) to talk about what you want in the store after it's open, how you want the aisles set up, etc., etc. Start talking about the issues and complexities involved in setting up the store BEFORE its doors open.
1. Issues of legal liability for members, and for the Coop as a whole.
2. Tax-based issues.
3. Non-profit issues since someone (I think you) mentioned it on another thread. I don't see how you could set this up as a non-profit, but I may be wrong.
4. Officers, voting rights issues. It's nice to say one person one vote, but a lot more difficult to implement.
5. How to deal with the ever-changing stautory issues that online enterprises have. Pretty soon they won't just be "venues" anymore, and they will have to be seriously self-policing.
6. Interstate Commerce issues.
7. Free speech/listing issues as pertain to FTC's Safe Harbor law, which is how eBay extricated itself from the San Diego lawsuit last month (47 U.S.C. § 230).
8. Computer issues. Site issues. Technology issues.
Etc. and so on. Personally, I believe that talking about a future auction venue is fine. I've seen a lot of talk about that. I've seen very little about the steps leading up to it, and almost nothing that shows any realization that there is one or more EXPERTS in this involved. And at the outset, i believe you need someone who has been involved with setting up a Coop on a reasonable scale before, and has been successful, that can coordinate and understand all the real-life issues involved, and can get a consensus of support. From what I've seen, it would be necessary to go outside of the online auction community to find one. Maybe I'm not seeing this because it's not being posted where I CAN see it. Until I do see it, for me, the idea isn't viable in my opinion.
posted on February 9, 2001 05:10:01 PM new
Great post TENTWENTYTWO: I agree with all of what you've said. Basically at this point we are trying to spread the word and see what kind of support is being generated.
Believe it or not we've been getting more emails of support about tech and other issues. For many reasons some folks don't wish to post on message boards.
I can't force them to do this.
Yes, there are lot's of questions. And yes, we have to find a way to deal with all of these issues.
I don't think anyone I've spoken with is terribly naive.
And yes, we need some skilled people on board.
A first platform will be posted on our message board and here on AW this weekend. It will just be something for all of us to look at, comment on and rip up to shreds but hopefully it will be a start to going in the directions that are necessary to make this happen.
Do you have any of these skills? Can you be of help to the co-op?
Please continue to post and share your ideas and thoughts and spread the word.
posted on February 9, 2001 05:21:28 PM new
Unfortunately, Jamie, my knowledge of what it takes to set up a Coop is limited to the knowledge I have of what the startup issues that i enumerated in my last post would be. i am not an Attorney, however, I have a broadly-based knowledge of legal principles and specific case law, and I have acted as the Advocate in 5 legal cases in which it was permissible to act without being a member of the Bar. i've written a 79-page brief to the US Suprme court which was submitted through a Law Firm and unfortunatley rejected. I'll tell you what I'll do. I'll throw the ball back to you. If you think that based on what I've posted here I could be of help, I'm willing to spend some time listening how, but obviously not on a board, because this is not the optimum way to communicate. As I said before, I don't think you'll get too many people in the online Auction Community who DON'T want a working Coop.
posted on February 9, 2001 05:27:41 PM new
Thanks, Nancy. What I'm saying is that this idea needs someone who is in fact intimately familiar with all the issues raised in a startup Coop, and the Website just strengthens that belief. The issues are complex, and that site lists many of the ones i brought up, and (obviously) then some... Do you know of anyone?
posted on February 9, 2001 05:33:07 PM newcodasaurus,"A co-op can only be successful if it addresses the needs of all its members. So, by definition an all encompassing online auction co-op is doomed."
I don't know about all-encompassing. A lot of people were throwing ideas around. Among those ideas were a seller-owned for-profit association, and a buyer/seller co-op. I am not responsible for those ideas and I can't speak to them. I did feel, perhaps wrongly, that it was not my position to criticize anyone else's ideas or tell them, "No, you can't do that."
"And I don't place any weight in the oft mentioned 'many sellers are buyers as well' retort I have been hearing."
Well, you never heard that phrase from me. Obviously any group of sellers should consider the needs of buyers. Other than that, I don't see why buyers should be involved in a sellers co-op as members.
"So, either start talking about a co-op that addresses the interests and needs of a very small and well defined group or continue in your exercise in futility."
Well, despite our differences and diversity, eBay sellers do have some things in common. First, we are stuck selling through a service that is a monopoly, and all that entails. Second, we all dump tons of money, thousands and thousands of dollars, into eBay each month. Third, we all (or most) are interested in alternatives. (And no, I don't think a mass exodus to Bidsville or any other so-called "free" site is the answer.)
Actually, a sellers co-op would be very simple. It would operate just like any other online auction house. The only difference is that it would be member-supported, not for profit. Take the "profit" factor out of what we're paying at eBay, and we could cut fees in half. It doesn't take a degree in rocket science to see the advantage.
I don't want to sugar-coat the idea of a sellers co-op. It will require more input than just a $100 membership fee. As in any democratically-run group, members must make themselves aware of issues and contribute in the form of voting. A co-op that brings in disinterested (financial and business) experts to run the co-op, without member oversight, is a mistake. The stronger the bylaws, the less danger, but still members must assume responsibility.
Most sellers at eBay are only familiar with the capitalistic way of doing business: I pay you, you provide the goods or services. End of transaction. What we are discussing requires more. Each member must participate by growing and tending the co-op. The benefits are lower fees, stability and self-determination.
It's easy to shoot holes in someone else's philosophy. Fact is, the alternative, eBay, is NOT working for many people. "Free" sites, as we've seen with Yahoo, are a poor and temporary solution. There are millions of eBay sellers, and if (or when) we succeed in pooling our resources, the results will be amazing.
posted on February 9, 2001 05:42:31 PM new
Twinsoft-
I'm confused about something, which you can apparently clarify. Below is the legal definition for a non-profit Corporation. What would the difference be between a "Corporation" and a "Coop" per that definition, because from it, it doesn't appear that an organization of online auction sellers would qualify?
-------------------------------------------
non-profit corporation
n. an organization incorporated under state laws and approved by both the state's Secretary of State and its taxing authority as operating for educational, charitable, social, religious, civic or humanitarian purposes. A non-profit corporation (also called "not for profit corporation" is formed by incorporators, has a board of directors and officers, but no shareholders. These incorporators, directors and officers may not receive a distribution of (any money from) profits, but officers and management may be paid reasonable salaries for services to the corporation. Upon dissolution of a nonprofit corporation its assets must be distributed to an organization existing for similar purposes under the "cy pres doctrine." In order for contributions to the corporation to be deductible as charitable gifts on federal income taxes, the corporation must submit a detailed application (with a substantial fee) for an Internal Revenue Service ruling that it is established for one of the specific nonprofit purposes spelled out in the Internal Revenue Code. Informational tax returns must be filed annually with the IRS and the state taxing body. In addition, the state Attorney General may have oversight powers to determine if the corporation is abiding by state laws by limiting its activities to its approved non-profit purposes and not milking the corporation for disguised profits.
posted on February 9, 2001 06:09:56 PM newtwotwentytwo, I don't personally know of anyone in the OAI that has intimate working knowledge of co-op start-ups of this magnitude. I agree that having such an individual on the Steering Committee is integral to our success.
Again, the NCBA is a national trade association representing cooperatives ranging in size from small buying clubs to businesses included in the Fortune 500.
They most likely will be able to help us fill that personnel void, either directly or indirectly.
edited to stick my nose into your question to twinsoft:
When various posters refer to the co-op's "non-profit" status, they're referring to the lack of a profit motive, not its tax status.
Nancy
[email protected]
[ edited by fountainhouse on Feb 9, 2001 06:13 PM ]
posted on February 9, 2001 06:23:37 PM new
When various posters refer to the co-op's "non-profit" status, they're referring to the lack of a profit motive, not its tax status.
Nancy
[email protected]
[ edited by fountainhouse on Feb 9, 2001 06:13 PM ]
I agree. Hopefully we will have a committee to come up with the exact terms and options legally open to the group. I had one email suggest that we may have to be a for profit corporation tax wise but have a NON-PROFIT clause in or Charter.
I'm not a tax attorney so I don't know if that could be done.
Let's get to the point where we want it to happen!
posted on February 9, 2001 06:28:39 PM new
10-22, you have legal expertise. I do not. I do not know if a sellers co-op would qualify for non-profit status. I'm not sure where you're going with this so let me just clarify my own ideas on how a sellers co-op would operate.
A sellers co-op would:
1) Allow members (sellers) to pool resources in order to purchase and administer their own web site.
2) Provide members with an equal say in co-op policies.
3) Provide services (credit card payments, image hosting, auction listing utilities) free or at cost to paying members.
A sellers co-op would not:
1) Return a profit (as in, a dividend to members). No shareholders, no profit.
2) Give sellers of big-ticket items more power or control in setting the policies of the co-op.
3) Be sold for profit down the road, leaving members out in the cold.
The legal status of a co-op is not an issue. There are over 50,000 co-ops in the United States alone. The .coop Web domain has already been approved, so we'll be seeing plenty of co-ops coming online soon. Ours is no different. It's simply a matter of eBay sellers getting out from under eBay's heel, and getting organized.
posted on February 9, 2001 06:41:42 PM new
Thanks Nancy. I feel younger and more virile already... (Now WHERE did I put my damn walker? Oh there it is, by my false teeth...)
posted on February 9, 2001 07:52:03 PM new
I have to tell you I Believe in this Auction Co-OP Idea and I don't believe it takes all as much money as ebay would have all think it does.
In all Honesty this Auction Co-Op's biggest hurdle isn't Ebay or how to meet it head to head it's biggest hurdle is People not just any people but Auction sellers mainly Believing in them selves.
How is it Auction sellers can list so many Item on an auction site believing there ads will get bids when many of these same people (sellers) Don't even believe they can sell an Idea This Idea can be posted for free no listing fees no FVF if you sell it no shipping or handling charges for the buyer to pay.
I Believe if we all get togeather there is enough talent out here to nearly run this whole thing paid positions and all with little to no outside help what so ever.
Many Have said How would we get the buyers we would need a huge advertising budget you cant make it with out TV advertising and more I think this is false fears if this Co-Op is put together in the right way this auction Co-Op site will sell its self and it can have a lot more valuable free TV publicity even Ebay didn't pay for its best TV advertising was all freeeeee in its first years and the first forming years are the most important the first impression is a lasting one.
Many say this is all wish full thinking there is no start up money how do you get equpment not to mention every other thing that will be needed well hmmmm...
As I see it the online auction industry is all in an up roar over 50% are getting nickle and dimmed out of bussiness many looking for a good place to sell with good customer service management on a auction site that will listen to its listing seller base and respect its sellers who make the site what it is, This on line Co-Op can do this easy one member one vote and a voice in things that are done that will effect the site.
Its not going to cost what all think to get a NOT-FOR-PROFIT auction seller coop up and running. How about 2 or 3 million disenfranchised sellers with .80 cent to spare just a drop in the bucket for most even if its committed for the heck of it by some on a whim only half believing and understanding, .80 to much to ask or 2 or 3 million sellers at once to large for you to understand being out there thats ok we dont need that many people to get started or that much money.
How about just to start 30 to 50 Large sellers big time to whom $250 is just a day or twos listing fees or postage and 500 to 1000 small very lost and eaten up by fees in the auction world with $20 to $25 to toss in and maybe some interested enough to toss in $50 are these numbers hard to believe do you think there may just be say 1,500 disenfranchised out there that are ready for something new something different a glimmer of hope in the online auction world.
How about if Such a Co-Op were to offer these sellers who tossed in this amount one years listing privilages only chargeing a modest FVF on sales there frist year, what if these same people were offered leader ship in there specialized categories as well or a nominations in there category as spokes person for there categories allowed to design how these categories or comunities will run and look Just a note on the Subject The Auction sellers Co-Op there is no leader of this group at this time think of the Co-Op as a seed at the moment leaders may Grow from within the group But this leader or leaders would have to be voted on or the actual admin for the site might even be hired from the outside as well but it would be a group Co-Op Decision When was the last time any Auction site gave you this much.
Canvid's (Jamie's) Ebay feed back has nothing to do with this effort in the matter of this Co-Op a very strong believer and supporter in it with some very good Idea's and is able to express these Idea's in a simple to understand way that real can when listened to make you understand.
TwinSoft (gratefuldad) Is not the bad guy here he is also a very strong supporter and believer of this Idea I have read every thread on every board and have posted my thoughts on many of them, TwinSoft has some very good points and Idea's I have never seen this or any group ask him to back down step down in anyway He has as much right to his Idea's and opinions as anyone else in the world, what many have said to him or asked of him some with more additude that others is That he be more Neutral in his moderation. Twin in many ways reminds me of a no nonsense type person, This to has its place in a discussion group for sure it takes Idea's, it takes some humor for releif , tempers will go off but it takes a few no nonsense people to know when there has been enough fun time or enough flame time on a subject and some how get the talks back in line.
I truly dont believe Twin or Jamie are trying to run or lead anything "just there way" I think there was a few days when things got so heated they just wasnt sure which way to turn to many fires going to many places not enough water lost they lost there cool it's happened to the best of us.
The Auction sellers Co-Op IS not about personalitys, its not about feed back its not a popularity contest its not a football game the frist group to make the most touch downs wont win the game, For all Intent and purpose The Idea of an online auction sellers
Co-Op is an idea whos Time has come it can work it can work for less fund then most believe.
There hasn't Been a new Idea in the online auction world since Ebay many have tried to start ebay Clones and many have failed Auction sites have come and gone like the only purple elephant on the merry go round. A community of auction sellers in a couminity of categories all Ran and lead by auction sellers all with the same stakes in the comunities sucess.
How about a comunity like strawberryfeilds A group of auction sellers who sell music know the music industry CDs, Tapes, Record Reel to Reel memorabilia and anything related to to music from A to Z Designed, lead and Ran by people who know what they are selling and what sells it best.
How about a comunity like Gaslight Village A comunity for every thing from keystone cops to Bobby Socks ran, designed by The people who know there market.
A comunity set up for clothes sellers made by clothes sellers for clothes sellers to market there item like they should be not how some Big corp decides it should be run for there optimum profit not your's.
I'm sure there are many other very good Idea's such as these auction type Co-Op communities and many sellers with top notch Idea on how to make them the best auction categroies on the internet With leader of these comunities that have the power inside there comunity when they see wrong committed to actually not only have power to voice a complaint but make the wrong right when they see it not after 10 or 15 canned messages from some customer service bot first.
Folks Whether your for this Idea or your against it even if your just on the fence this Idea is not going to pass away and die without before its given a fighting chance. It is far better to voice your idea share your abilitys Now while this is still in a discussion state it is far easy as a whole to bend and change and mold Now if and when this does all get going as a seller supported auction site it will be more costly for all to decide to make changes these changes later.
all Ideas advice talent and effort is need NOW to keep thing as cost effective as posible for all. .80 cents from 2or 3 million to get involved at the grass root, level involvement at rates according to your business or hobby selling size from 1500 to 4000 interested party at level from $20 to $250 .These numbers are not wrote in stone but Im willing to bet they are close very close to get this kickedin to gear gives your Idea tell your friend the more interested here the lower the less $$$ needed per member.
DO we Need one or more deep pocketed people it could help but sellers can do this on there own pennies on the dollar per person. but what is need is help talk advice donation of talents a willing ness to give a few hours of your time. we need people willing to sit in committees of all types and even if the only thing you can offer is to sell one other on this idea.
Just a few Ideas and thoughts here im sure there are many out there with more of there own there is Two or three Ezboards to discuss this on this is not a divided group with no direction this is now a group doubleing its efforts toward the same end goal If you would just get in there and pitch a few Ideas it could change the Out Look of the feature of online auctions.
DOnt just sit there thinking why get involved this is just not going to work their is little to lose here and even if these proposals fail even if they get shot down some one else is going to pick up this ball and run with it this Idea will march on with a new proposal people will keep this goig till something clicks with all.
posted on February 9, 2001 09:27:47 PM new
Dman, that's a great post. I'm not a "no-nonsense" kind of guy. Despite appearances, I'm a totally nonsense kind of guy. I think a better description might be, "opinionated SOB." Anyhoo....
A lot of people are still struggling with "inside the box" ideas. In particular, the idea that a co-op must be big enough to compete with (and beat) eBay. This is kind of like saying, "there can't be lions and gazelles in the same jungle."
Thinking "outside the box" means creating a site that succeeds on its own merit, and is built to last. Ten years down the road, who knows where the co-op will stand? Perhaps even bigger than eBay. Who knows? But that would be a result of natural growth, not million dollar Super Bowl commercials.
posted on February 10, 2001 07:31:01 AM new
Great Post Dman!
I envision a Senate like grouping of the components for a co-op.
All the video sellers would basically have influence over the video selling area. They would have X number of reps that they would vote to the Senate to voice their concerns and wants within the greater government of the co-op. The same for book people, or Antique people.
The benefits of these people's knowledge within their own product line could only help boost these areas and the co-op itself.
If we have a million members it would be hard to pack them into one room, chat room that is. By having reps from the different categories we could effectively work together.
Then as new groups wanted to join they could develope within the framework established.
Again, these are just ideas being floated out. What are your comments or ideas??
posted on February 10, 2001 09:53:16 AM new
Our first worksheet is up on the message board. I invite all over to rip and tear at it and explain why it could never work and hopefully to come up with some super alternatives!
Also, Cathy Labelle is creating a website for the Co-op from an information standpoint. She can use a helper or two so if you want to get involved email her at [email protected]
posted on February 10, 2001 11:38:17 AM new
10-22 and Canvid:
I think that an auction co-op operating under the principles listed by Canvid could be formed as a non-profit corporation.
"Non-profit" is a somewhat misleading term, as non-profit corporations can make a profit. People usually think of public benefit corporations (501(c)3 public benefit corporations include religious groups and charities) when they think of non-profits. But there are other types, and an auction co-op could fairly easily fit into one of the other categories.
Mutual Benefit corporations are the other major type of non-profits. As the name implies, Mutual Benefit corporations are formed to benefit their members (in this case, the co-op members). These include trade associations, automobile clubs, and the like, and are set up under 501(c)6 of the Revenue Code. Unlike public benefit corps, contributions TO these organizations are not necessarily tax exempt, although they may be exempt for contributors who can claim them as a business deduction. The organization is exempt from income taxes, just like a public benefit corp.
With a public benefit non-profit, you cannot distribute profits or dividends to members (as designated in the bylaws), but members can receive benefits in the form of services or facilities. There are "member" and "non-member" corporations- another long story, but the long and short of it is that you'd want a "member" corporation, allowing members to vote on various issues as provided in the bylaws.
You can set this up yourself- there are books on how to do it, and Nolo Press publishes kits for forming non-profits in many states. But having an attorney review the articles of incorporation, the bylaws, the membership agreement, and the non-profit application to the IRS is probably wise, as there are some tricky legal issues involved.
I'm not an attorney- this is all just stuff we learned as we incorporated the OAUA as a 501(c)6 non-profit mutual benefit corporation. And whoever said it's lots of work was right!
posted on February 10, 2001 12:01:27 PM new
To Magazine_guy-
Here are the eligible ways I found under 501 to incorporate as a non-profit. I eliminated all things such as credit unions, insurance cos., etc. Could you point me to one that would apply?
(2) Corporations organized for the exclusive purpose of holding title to property, collecting income therefrom, and turning over the entire amount thereof, less expenses, to an organization which itself is exempt under this section. Rules similar to the rules of subparagraph (G) of paragraph (25) shall apply for purposes of this paragraph.
(3) Corporations, and any community chest, fund, or foundation, organized and operated exclusively for religious, charitable, scientific, testing for public safety, literary, or educational purposes, or to foster national or international amateur sports competition (but only if no part of its activities involve the provision of athletic facilities or equipment), or for the prevention of cruelty to children or animals, no part of the net earnings of which inures to the benefit of any private shareholder or individual, no substantial part of the activities of which is carrying on propaganda, or otherwise attempting, to influence legislation (except as otherwise provided in subsection (h)), and which does not participate in, or intervene in (including the publishing or distributing of statements), any political campaign on behalf of (or in opposition to) any candidate for public office.
(6) Business leagues, chambers of commerce, real-estate boards, boards of trade, or professional football leagues (whether or not administering a pension fund for football players), not organized for profit and no part of the net earnings of which inures to the benefit of any private shareholder or individual.
(7) Clubs organized for pleasure, recreation, and other nonprofitable purposes, substantially all of the activities of which are for such purposes and no part of the net earnings of which inures to the benefit of any private shareholder.
I see no possibility except (6), business league, and I believe 6 would be disqualified because as a Auction Coop, all members would theoretically have equal status, and most if not all would be involved in a for-profit enterprise on the Incorporated site. I can see where OAUA would be eligible under that Section , though. Nobody in OAUA is directly involved in selling at auction THROUGH OAUA, I would think that would make all the difference. Please comment.
posted on February 10, 2001 12:18:56 PM new
Let me expand on what I think I know as an amateur on IRS policy about non-profits. Before the IRS grants non-profit status to any organization, they do a pain-in-where-you-sit lengthy examination that often presupposes that the entity that's applying for the status is just trying to avoid paying taxes. The guiding principle (if you can actually say that anything the IRS does has a guiding principle) is to find out what the fundamental reason that the entity exists is. The fundamental reason that this Coop would exist would be to provide a safe, self-regulated to the extent possible, non-restrictive environment in which the people involved could make a business profit, and have a much greater say in how the site is run than they could possibly have on eBay or anywhere else for that matter. If this is true, it's very laudable, but it would seem to negate any non-profit status on general principles.
is formed by incorporators, has a board of directors and officers, but no shareholders. These incorporators, directors and officers may not receive a distribution of (any money from) profits, but officers and management may be paid reasonable salaries for services to the corporation. Upon dissolution of a nonprofit corporation its assets must be distributed to an organization existing for similar purposes under the "cy pres doctrine." In order for contributions to the corporation to be deductible as charitable gifts on federal income taxes, the corporation must submit a detailed application (with a substantial fee) for an Internal Revenue Service ruling that it is established for one of the specific nonprofit purposes spelled out in the Internal Revenue Code. Informational tax returns must be filed annually with the IRS and the state taxing body. In addition, the state Attorney General may have oversight powers to determine if the corporation is abiding by state laws by limiting its activities to its approved non-profit purposes and not milking the corporation for disguised profits.