posted on February 24, 2001 09:39:37 AM
In my opinion, you did nothing wrong up until the time you agreed to ship it Media Rate. THEN, what you did was ask her to go figure the amount instead of knowing it yourself. You relinquished control over the transaction. That's why she ripped you off with the $1.25.
Secondly, if you were willing to accept the $1.25 just to be done with it (which I can't remember if you were, sorry), then I think I would have just shipped to the verified address and not said anything more about it to her.
But, my advice for the future is to continue to include the exact shipping amount in your TOS and then stick to it. Don't argue with the buyers. None of this "I don't see why you bid when the rates are clearly stated...." Just "the amount due is $XXX. please remit to XXX." Repeat only that until the person either pays or gives up. Use your inner Spock!
This technique will also work when your child becomes a teenager. No matter what they say, just look at them and repeat: "Your curfew is 11:00...Your curfew is 11:00."
posted on February 24, 2001 09:46:12 AMDigitalmaster:
Your buyer was clearly in the wrong here. You handled this transaction very well - and actually probably a lot nicer than I would have been able to!
Fact is, she bid - KNOWING upfront what the shipping price was. If she didn't agree with it, she should NOT have bid. And if she wanted you to ship a different way she should have asked you PRIOR to bidding - not after she won!
I feel sorry for you having to deal with a customer like this! She was WRONG, and extremely RUDE!
posted on February 24, 2001 10:52:22 AM
Thanks for all the mixed oppinions. I think it depends on what you ship also. First, I never pad my shipping. I keep my shipping rates at costs and if I ever find later that something is cheaper to send, I change my rates to fit the accurate price, something most people probably don't even spend the time to do.
Also, all I sell is collectables. For example, I have a MINT, I mean a real MINT Billboard Magazine from 1984 dedicated to Michael Jackson. There is no way in hell I am sending that to someone media mail. If its gets damaged, then I am the one who gets the "misrepresented item" negative feedback. Magazines and photos can get damaged really fast and if a photo or something is going to be in the mail for a few weeks that is goin to increase the time it takes to get to where its going and its more likely to get damaged. Also, the thing she won was heavy and could easily be damaged.
I should have explained that when I posted this message. If I was sending the latest Britney Spears or whatever, I would have not cared becasue Its not that valuble, but when I have the original Film & Artwork for a Blondie album from 1980 (really, I actually do) I am not sending it media mail because the item itself is too valuble. I also have a rare promotional Lenny Kravitz Candle and I am not going to send that anything other than Priority or it could melt and I will be blamed in the end and even though I would have a good defence, who would bidders believe if someone said "Recieved melted candle." no matter what I would say I would end up looking bad. So, I have no choice but to send priority or at least first class for a majority of my items. This is also the main reason I use COM. If I was sending the same items over and over I would not take as much precaution but 90% of what I have in stock, I have only 1 of. I don't like taking chances when I don't have more than 1. Get me?
[ edited by digitalmaster on Feb 24, 2001 10:56 AM ]
posted on February 24, 2001 10:58:21 AM
I think that by bidding on the item, the person agreed to whatever shipping charge was in the listing and had no right to complain.
Asking for Media Rate didn't hurt anyone, however, I believe the seller should not have sent such a long winded reply. MrJim had the perfect response in his post. Concise, to the point and firm.
posted on February 24, 2001 11:31:19 AM"Too many people, both buyers and sellers are taking the attitude I know someone is going to try and rip me off so I'm da** well going to make sure it can't happen!
That's the truth! I've been on eBay for 18 months now and never had ANY problems. I only became paranoid after reading the AW message center, especially EO. I was running several bulk auctions when I started reading about everything that COULD go wrong, and from then on, every little delay in payment, or badly worded e-mail got me concerned. Thank God I got over it.
Digital's buyer is an obvious nutcase, first saying that she'll pray for him, and then cussing him in the next e-mail. Maybe you should send her a religious video at no charge!
posted on February 24, 2001 11:44:54 AM
digitalmaster
I am not sure that it is correct Priority mail is safer than media mail or parcel post. I almost never use priority mail. The couple of times I did, I received report of damage on one shipment. With all the media mail and parcel posts, I never gotten report of damage. It seems that Priority mail have a higher chance for damage than media mail/parcel post.
It seems that my experience is not unique. There is a current thread on AW on this subject.
posted on February 24, 2001 12:18:35 PM
my grandpa told me "if you argue with a fool, it's hard to tell who the fool is" LOL
I stick with my tos and call the deal off when the customer wants things significantly different.
pcalton
Perry Calton [email protected]
http://www.pcalton.com
posted on February 24, 2001 12:26:12 PMIf I was sending the latest Britney Spears or whatever, I would have not cared becasue Its not that valuble, but when I have the original Film & Artwork for a Blondie album from 1980 (really, I actually do) I am not sending it media mail because the item itself is too valuble.
I don't understand what difference it makes how "valuable" something is regarding how it is shipped. All items should be packaged carefully regardless of how much they cost and it doesn't matter what method of shipping you use, as has already been stated. And what is not valuable to the seller might be more valuable to the buyer and vice versa.
Regardless, while the buyer was initially wrong in this case, the seller is sounding more and more inflexible and is so afraid that buyers will do something to make things bad that I really have to wonder if that nickel difference between what it actually would have cost to ship Media Mail and what had actually been paid was worth all of this.
Oh, but I forgot, there is an extra 75 cents for the COM, isn't there? Surely, the seller here would never dare risk "taking chances" over a $5 video, right?
When you're too busy chasing those nickels and dimes, somehow you never seem to catch the dollars....
posted on February 24, 2001 12:32:44 PM
Another suggestion:
If you are so dead set against shipping to anything other than a verified shipping address for credit card payments, I think that should be in your TOS. That way, buyers will be forewarned and can't argue (legitimately anyway) about it later.
Probably most buyers have no idea, unless they're sellers themselves, that PayPal, etc. advise against shipping to any other address other than the one they registered with.
Personally, I've shipped to addresses and names other than what the buyer registered under and have never had a problem. I will continue to do so. I see no need to treat everyone as a potential criminal just because they're buying something as a gift for someone who doesn't happen to live in the same household or have the same last name.
So I guess I (and others who feel the same way) will get their business and you won't. But that's your choice.
posted on February 24, 2001 01:22:57 PM
BJGrolle, Im not sure if you actually read the all the messages but I did cave in and accept media mail rate. Then, she decided what she was going to pay and even cussed me out several times. That was uncalled for.
Also, this is not about "eyes of the beholder" type thing. A film and negetive artwork for a major artist is literly one of a kind. This is the original film, there is only one copy of this on earth most likely and that makes it hell of a collectable. My point is, I sell a lot of items like this and a candle for example is much more likely to melt in 2 weeks going media mail than it is 3 days priority. If I sold other merchandise, or if this argument was about other merchandise, I woudl agree with you, but not with one of a kind rare collectables.
Lets say I had a have a guitar Pic from Jimi Hendrix (I dont!) if that is lost, it can not be replaced and I wont take a chance at losing something like that. SO, it really depends on what you sell, not what method of shipping you chose.
posted on February 24, 2001 01:28:20 PM
BJGrolle, once again, I disagree. First, PayPal does post message that they should select an address or that the seller can deny payment because the seller must ship to a verified address.
Second, How am I treating anyone like a criminal? That really makes no sense to me. I did not make the policy up and I hate the policy, but I am not going to risk losing my business because of not following their policy. I had a merchant account before and its real easy for a buyer to get a charge back (depending on their bank). Its a requirement from PayPal to send to a verified address. As I said in the message, its a stupid policy, but how I am treating someone like a criminal by abiding by it?
Oh, one more thing about shipping. I use to charge $0.99 or $1.99 on shipping for every item I sold. I use to send items book rate which is the same as media rate and bit the cost on packaging. At least 10 people complained of damages, etc which is why I decided to use a higher rate of shipping.
Also, I doubt we are selling the same types of items so I don't know how you would get their business and I wouldnt. 99% of my transactions are perfact. I am not desperate for sales. I grossed about $65,000 last year on eBay so I must be doing something right...
Regardless, thanks for your opinion. My whole goal here was to get perspectives and I did not just want people who agreed with me. I am really trying to figure out how to deal with people like this. I have tried several different methods and nothing seems to change the outcome. I guess if someone is an ---hole, they are just an ---hole and I can't do anything to change that. I mind as well not waist my time arguing with bidders like that anymore. Thanks for all the advise...
[ edited by digitalmaster on Feb 24, 2001 01:42 PM ]
posted on February 24, 2001 01:33:08 PM
Hearing all the nightmare stories about chargebacks - why would ANY seller take the risk of getting a chargeback?
BJGrolle - you have been LUCKY to not get a chargeback for shipping to a different address. Just because you have been lucky doesn't mean all other sellers should take that risk as well...
posted on February 24, 2001 05:12:40 PMBJGrolle, Im not sure if you actually read the all the messages but I did cave in and accept media mail rate. Then, she decided what she was going to pay and even cussed me out several times. That was uncalled for.
Yes, it was uncalled for. I'm not denying that and I believe it was the first thing I mentioned in my first post. But, as someone else here pointed out, you did not tell the buyer how much to pay. That is your responsibility and the buyer shouldn't have to guess. And she wouldn't have been able to continue cussing you out if you had not continued to haggle with her, (according to my count, she started cussing in her 5th email, which was after your 6th email to her) something that you didn't really want to do anyway if I understand you right.
BJGrolle, once again, I disagree. First, PayPal does post message that they should select an address or that the seller can deny payment because the seller must ship to a verified address.
No, the seller doesn't have to ship to a verified address. Below is the quote from the Terms of Use page. You can ship to any address you want to, but then you accept the chargeback risk.
PayPal prompts buyers to provide sellers with a Verified Shipping Address when making a purchase. Shipping to to this address minimizes the risk of being paid by a fraudulent buyer. If no Verified Shipping Address is given by the buyer, the seller must either refuse the payment and ask that the buyer show their billing address, or accept the chargeback risk in shipping the item outside of this Seller Protection Policy.
Second, How am I treating anyone like a criminal? That really makes no sense to me. I did not make the policy up and I hate the policy, but I am not going to risk losing my business because of not following their policy. I had a merchant account before and its real easy for a buyer to get a charge back (depending on their bank). Its a requirement from PayPal to send to a verified address. As I said in the message, its a stupid policy, but how I am treating someone like a criminal by abiding by it?
Again, if you read the quote from PayPal above, it is not a requirement, but a choice. And that's OK. You've chosen to only ship to a verified address. As I previously suggested, perhaps that could be added to your TOS to avoid hassles in future. But I feel that if I refuse to ship to a different address, I'm telling the buyer "I can't trust you, you might be using the buyer's credit card without permission, I'm going to refuse your request on that basis alone even though I have no legitimate reason not to trust you." I don't feel comfortable with that position, so I choose not to adopt that thinking. I still believe in innocent until proven guilty, and that's where my remark about treating people like a criminal comes in.
Oh, one more thing about shipping. I use to charge $0.99 or $1.99 on shipping for every item I sold. I use to send items book rate which is the same as media rate and bit the cost on packaging. At least 10 people complained of damages, etc which is why I decided to use a higher rate of shipping.
I've never had any complaints of damage in over 600 packages shipped, most by Book Rate/Media Mail, so I can't comment on the disparity you think exists between that and Priority Mail. And I build the packaging into my price, so it's never out of pocket for me. Wouldn't make good business sense.
Also, I doubt we are selling the same types of items so I don't know how you would get their business and I wouldnt. 99% of my transactions are perfact. I am not desperate for sales. I grossed about $65,000 last year on eBay so I must be doing something right...
Well, you simply mentioned that this transaction involved a video and I've sold a few videos recently. Just basically a product type comparison. And I would agree that you seem to be doing quite well and with the type of money you're bringing in, it's curious to me why such a big fuss over a couple of bucks? Do what you need to do to get rid of the 1% that raise an issue and move on... I've had problem buyers before and I'm certainly not going to waste 6 emails on someone to try and get them to abide by my TOS. Never had anyone cuss at me either, at least not yet.
BJGrolle - you have been LUCKY to not get a chargeback for shipping to a different address. Just because you have been lucky doesn't mean all other sellers should take that risk as well...
Yep, probably have been lucky. Or maybe I know how not to antagonize my customers. That often can lead to trouble such as we see here.
No, I'm not suggesting that others take the same risk. Conduct your business however you see fit. I treat customers how I expect to be treated and generally things work out well.
posted on February 24, 2001 05:27:16 PM
Fair enough. One question though. Do you have common inventory? I mean, if you sell a Richard Simmons video, do you have more than one copy? Please be honest here. If I sold Telletubbies videos (or any videos, music, items, etc) and had many copies, I would have the same attitude as you. I would not care if one was lost and would just replace it. But as I said, everything I sell is one of a kind and I can't afford to do business that way. It's not presuming someone guilty. It's only have a terms of service that protects my assets. That is just business, it has nothing to do with who is innocent and who is guilty. I have recently bought a house and a car with the money I have earned and have to protect myself from fraudulet business transactions. Its nothing personal to my bidders. I actually use a COM for their trust as well so they know I honestly did send their item.
As I said, most transactions go well. I do agree that I should not have kept arguing and should have just stated "It was in my terms, if you do not agree please do not bid on my auctions." That is where I went wrong.
posted on February 24, 2001 05:35:29 PMOr maybe I know how not to antagonize my customers.
Auction states $4 shipping.
Buyer bids and wins, without asking any questions.
After auction ends, buyer emails seller that they will NOT pay the shipping amount that is stated in the auction, they will only pay what THEY want to pay.
Sorry, but I think this would be considered BUYER antagonizing the SELLER. Not the other way around.
posted on February 24, 2001 05:48:31 PMEG I agree that the buyer should have asked before bidding but their first e-mail said:
[i]HER:
Wow, Brian, 4.99 is a lot to ship one video. Would you consider shipping it media rate?[/i]
The seller then agreed to send it media rate but then-- perhaps in the buyer's (incorrect) view-- found some other reason to "mess" with them, i.e., refusing the PayPal payment because of the verified address thing. I think that really PO'd the buyer.
It looks to me like the buyer thought the seller was being a wise guy and not accepting the PayPal payment out of spite since the person asked for a lesser shipping method.
posted on February 24, 2001 05:53:01 PM
No, I don't have multiple copies of items I sell. So, if an item gets lost or damaged in shipping, or let's say, stolen because the buyer did use someone else's credit card, I'm out of luck.
If the item is lost or damaged, I will refund the customer's money, plain and simple. I can't provide another identical item, so the customer would be disappointed in that respect, but they would never be out of pocket.
You don't mention the typical price range you sell in. I don't worry about low-ticket items, such as the $5 video that started this whole fiasco with this woman. When I've had more expensive sales, I've added insurance at my own expense so I wouldn't be out-of-pocket.
Ask yourself, "What is the worst thing that could happen if this item is lost, stolen, etc.?" When you come up with the answer, decide if you can live with it, or what you need to do to avoid such a loss.
As for me, in this same situation, I would have been shorted 5 cents in shipping, but for a $5.00 video, I still would have made a profit.
Had a customer just send me a money order that was 5 cents short. But, he enclosed a dollar bill to cover it. I would have shipped anyway without the dollar. So, I figured out what it would cost to upgrade shipping and there was still a couple of pennies extra, so I upgraded his shipping. Should I have kept the extra 95 cents, you think? Maybe I'm too nice.
If the buyer is using Paypal to pay for her purchases, don't you think she should be responsible to know how it works? She should know about the "address verified" thing.
If I accepted Paypal (I don't and haven't for several months) and I received a payment through Paypal that basically said "warning! If you don't ship to their verified address you are risking a chargeback" I wouldn't ship to another address either.... the seller was just being cautious.. and with all the morons out there you NEED to be cautious...
I don't blame the seller one bit.. if it ticked off the buyer, that's HER problem for not knowing how Paypal works.
posted on February 24, 2001 06:09:26 PM
You: "I will ship media rate if you chose, but the last time I did that it took 2 weeks to get to its destination."
Her:"I am paying media rate PERIOD."
You:"I do hate arguing about shipping rates."
Her:"I will pay media rate, that's all."
You:"I will send it media rate."
Why didn't you just send it media rate like you said you could in the second email? She obviously didn't care if it took two weeks. Talk about a waste of time. It's a situation that you should never let grow out of proportion. Now both of you are faced with possible negs and/or a void sale.
A second lesson is never explain yourself. It makes you look like you're competing against them and this is how arguments get started. Always try to create a win win situation.
She didn't want delivery confirmation so if it gets lost, tough luck for her. I don't think you can have DC on media rate anyway. You did tell her to figure out the media rate herself so I guess you're out the handling.
posted on February 24, 2001 06:15:43 PMSorry, but I think this would be considered BUYER antagonizing the SELLER. Not the other way around.
That is true. The buyer did start this whole mess. Which is all the more reason to complete (or not) the transaction as quickly as possible and move on... Instead there were repeated emails to the ridiculous point on both sides. Seller could also refuse to complete the transaction because the proper amount of shipping wasn't paid, technically a very small shortage, but even so, that would have been an option.
Basically my remark was meant in a more general sense, but I'm not surprised that you took it more personally. and with all the morons out there you NEED to be cautious... That quote is part of your response to kerryann and is pretty typical of the nature of many of your comments in these message boards, particularly in threads that you start. You seem to have extraordinary problems with customers and I'd suspect that might be because you come across as somewhat antagonistic and harsh to me. I've read a great many of your posts, so I'm not making a judgement just based on this thread. Others may disagree.
You can't control what the buyer says or does, but you can control your reaction to it so the situation doesn't escalate to the point it upsets you. It sounds like digitalmaster is a very reasonable person who is genuinely interested in the opinions of others and trying to seek solutions. Only good can come of that.
But someone who constantly posts about all the problems they have with customers, posts with obvious sarcasm and disdain for said customers (notice I'm not saying the customer is always right, mind you), well, that attitude has to be present in their emails to the customers, perhaps even the TOS. And especially, when the postings are of the nature of "Hey, this is what I did, what do you think of that!" and others may agree and some might disagree and notably those who disagreed get slammed for disagreeing, well, what does that say? It speaks of an intolerance of others. As long as you have such an attitude and think nothing of referring to other people as morons, well, I would rather not have any dealings with such a person. Others may find it amusing, but I don't.
posted on February 24, 2001 06:22:09 PM
Good point quickdraw. All of you, both agreeing or disagreeing with me have made good points and I appreciate that. In the future, I have learned its better to not argue, even if I'm right.
By the way, I had a "real" problem with an item tonight! A bidder emailed me and stated he received a photo which was bent. He was polite, but said I should have put "do not bend" and was a little irritated. I apologized, agree with him, and offered him a similar replacement and left him positive feedback. So, he comes back to me and then say's it was the post offices fault and took all blame off me and was very courteous. He also seemed to say he did not care if I sent a replacement (but I will send it anyway).
The point is, I did not argue with him and he ended up seeing my point anyway. So, hopefully others who read this at least learn of my mistake. Don't argue with bidders, even if your right. No matter how logical your argument is, they won't agree.
I also did not say anything against you personally, so your comments to me were very much out of line.
Yes, every once in a while I start a thread on a problem customer that I have. That may seem a lot to you based on the amount of customers you have (your word was extraordinary) - but I deal with hundreds of customers every week and 99% of my customers are wonderful. I only post the somewhat unusual transactions that I have where others might find interesting, or a problem I have that I would like advice on. Isn't that what these boards are about? You seem to think pretty low of me, but I know how I handle my customers and I have a huge percentage of repeat customers, and a 99.96% positive feedback rating - with over 5,000 feedbacks total. So I hardly think your comments towards me have any bearing. If you are going to accuse me of something please make sure it is true first.
posted on February 24, 2001 06:40:52 PM
This buyer is giving me bad vibes and I'm not the one dealing with her. I had someone on yahoo asking me why I was sending a DVD for so much. I had always mailed videos and dvds first class and it costs lot of money to do it that way. Thought book rate was just for books...but oh well. This person didn't even bid on my stuff yet, but he found out my email address and was harassing me over this dvd. I immediately put him on my blacklist (shame they don't have that on ebay) so that he couldn't cause more problems. I sold the dvd to someone else who was very polite and a very quick payer. I charged him $7.00 shipping/handling. The cost of the envelope was $1.07. The postage was $3.75. The insurance $1.10. Mailing labels...duct tape (wasn't anything getting into that package)...gas going to the post office.
well, now i know I can send tapes, movies, etc cheaper than what I was, so thank you post office been making lot of money off of me since i started saling.
posted on February 24, 2001 06:42:42 PM
You said I had an "Extraordinary" amount of problem customers. I was saying the few that I've posted about, may seem a lot to you, but in fact, it's not that many based on the number of people I deal with every week.
you come across as somewhat antagonistic and harsh to me
This thread is about someone else, who is having problems with a "problem customer".. and I have been giving them the advice THEY asked for. And then YOU turn around and tell ME I seem harsh and antogonistic out of nowhere. I don't believe I asked you for your opinion on me, and I don't remember reading anyone else who asked you for your opinion on me. Do you honestly think calling me harsh and antagonistic is being very nice or polite? It doesn't even have anything to do with this thread.
So like I said, please get back to the topic or don't post anything at all.
posted on February 24, 2001 06:58:24 PM
I believe EG my original post to you was in response to a post in which you quoted from one of mine. You seemed to feel the need to stress that the buyer was in the wrong by trying to change the shipping terms, a point I'd already agreed with in another post. My comment about antagonizing customers did not in any way imply that the buyer was correct, yet that is what you chose to read into it.
Do you honestly think calling me harsh and antagonistic is being very nice or polite? It doesn't even have anything to do with this thread.
Well, actually it does, as the buyer and seller became harsh and antagonistic with each other. And the conversation, if you will, that is going on between us right now is a perfect example of how such things come to pass.
So like I said, please get back to the topic or don't post anything at all.
I think the Moderators are in charge here, not you, me, or anyone else.
You obviously have taken great offense at my comments. You've chewed me out, just as you've chewed out others who've posted similar opinions of your responses to others. So I guess I have to assume you don't like me now. I guess you'd rather hate me than step back and think if there isn't a less harsh way to say the same thing. That's exactly the sort of thing that caused this thread to be started in the first place, so in a sense, some might consider it to be on topic...
But anyway, I notice that you didn't answer my question. Maybe there is no answer. I don't recall making a reference to the amount of customers I have in this or any thread, but if I'm wrong I welcome your correction.
I guess you'd rather hate me than step back and think if there isn't a less harsh way to say the same thing. That's exactly the sort of thing that caused this thread to be started in the first place, so in a sense, some might consider it to be on topic...