posted on February 25, 2001 11:08:35 PM new
I sell alot of items on ebay thru dutch auctions. I found that when I list buyer pays acutual shipping amount I get less bidders. I now list a fixed amount on my dutch auctions and people seem to like it. sometimes I undercharge and sometimes I overcharge, but In over 500 auctions I only had 1 complaint. and when I charge them $6.00 for shipping and It ends up costing me $15.00, I have never had anyone send me more money to cover the difference. It all balances out in the end.
posted on February 25, 2001 11:13:54 PM new
Jimmyb5
I agree. I learned early on that most buyers want to know exactly what the shipping amount will be up front. I post a fixed amount for anywhere in NA. In order to compete with American sellers, I have to keep my rates in line with a US to US sale. I may lose a few bucks in shipping, but my items sell for 3-20 times what they would locally, so ya, it all evens out in the end.
posted on February 25, 2001 11:18:27 PM new
redder: It doesn't really matter what you sell. If you're recovering ALL of your shipping expenses (outside of the actual postage) from your gross profit margin all you're doing is reducing your overall net profit. Does your 'enough $$' pay you an hourly wage? If you're not in it to make a profit and a decent ROI then that's fine.
If you are though perhaps you should sit down with your CPA for an hour.
posted on February 25, 2001 11:23:01 PM new
If they don't post an international rate, ask them the cost they would charge to ship to you before bidding. I list that I ship to the US only, but have yet to turn down a international bidder that emailed me first and asked.
The reason I stopped was that so many bidders would look at the fixed shipping price that clearly stated US only and expect it to cover anywere in the world. It wasn't worth the 20 emails back and forth to straighten it out. Unfortunately a very high percentage of those bidders that demanded the same shipping cost from me were requesting shipping to Canada.
Once again if you ask the seller first neither party should be suprised after the sale.
Edit as follows: The above comment is NOT intended as a blanket indictment of Canadian bidders, it was just my personal experience. Perhaps due to more bidders joining from Canada. I expect with eBay buying up European auction sites that the percentages will shift. Once again I will and have shipped to Canada if asked first, and shipping is agreed upon in advance.
[ edited by pizzatigger on Feb 25, 2001 11:31 PM ]
posted on February 25, 2001 11:24:04 PM new
kraftdinner. We don't lick stamps. Postage is printed on Avery labels. I frequently though spring for lunch for my employees and it's definitely a deductable business expense.
Sorry that professional business people attempting to run profitable operations offends you so much.
posted on February 25, 2001 11:25:16 PM new
since you are from canada maybe you can answer a question for me. I sell about 10-15 things a year to canada. did the rates go up really high this year? I just got a shipping quote from usps and it will cost $15.00 to ship something 6 pounds from PA. It's tough to ask for $15.00 on a $27.00 item.
posted on February 25, 2001 11:44:34 PM new
I wonder if the difference here in opinions boils down to what we sell and how many items we sell. In other words .. volume sales for small $$ items vs. fewer sales for higher $$ items. There's a 'huge' difference between tripling your 'investment' on something you paid $15 for and tripling your 'investment' on something you paid $2 for!
Also, 99% of my items are shipped priority to the US. No box cost. I get my peanuts for free from stores that want to get rid of them. I buy my bubble wrap and tape online cheap. I buy tissue paper (for clothing) when it's on sale. I cleaned out Walmart after Christmas when dress and robe boxes were going for .40 a piece. I get clean, sturdy plain brown boxes from LOTS of places .. whenever I happen to see them .. the video store on 'new release day', Walmart when the shelves are being stocked, etc. My DIL brings me good boxes and packing foam from work that would have been thrown away. The only time I've had to buy boxes, I've made PLENTY of money to cover it. It's a drop in the bucket.
Now, if I was selling videos for $5.99, yes, I would have a problem paying for packing supplies and would not want to spend the time packing, mailing, etc. for free. Therefore, I don't sell videos. (Using videos as an example only)
With the increases in postage and listing fees, sellers who sell items in the $10+/- range no longer have any room to cover those costs out of profit.
However, who wants to buy a (non-rare) video for $5.99 then pay more than $2 for shipping? Why not? Because I can go to Walmart or the video store and buy it for the same amount of money or less.
Seems a rock and a hard place situation. Any thoughts about this line of thinking?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I have wept in the night, for the shortness of sight
That to somebody's need made me blind;
But I have never yet, felt a tinge of regret
For being a little to kind. Anon
[ edited by tuition44years on Feb 25, 2001 11:47 PM ]
posted on February 25, 2001 11:47:45 PM newtapatti....my response was a tongue-in-cheek thing meant to lighten things up a bit....I'm certainly not offended by anyone's personal opinion, or how they choose to run their business. I do feel it's a separate thing altogether though......selling things for a set "retail" price...mail order, B/M, etc., and selling by auction.
Really smart business people who sell through auctions should be making good money on the SALE of their ITEM, not making money on the shipping rates. If you've bought right and sold right, your profit is made on the sale, and you shouldn't have to charge any extra for all the shipping "expenses".
posted on February 26, 2001 12:20:05 AM new
Sorry Kraft...been there done that.
Would you consider Sotheby's AUCTIONS a "smart" business operation?
This from a previous thread from a few weeks ago:
-----------------------------------
MrJim
posted on February 16, 2001 12:20:35 PM
-----------------------------------
"the fact is that this is supposed to be an auction and most people don't expect to pay inflated "shipping" or "Handling" fees"
Go check out Sothebys online auction and come back and tell us what a "real" auction house charges for shipping and handling. Here is the link:
http://www.sothebys.com
For those of you that don't want to bother, here is what I paid for shipping and handling on two lots that were shipped together and weighed less than 2 pounds:
Lot One: $37.20
Lot Two: $35.20
Total: $72.40
Shipped Fedex Economy from New York to Baltimore. Actual Cost less than $15.00.
That is what it costs to have an auction house pack and ship items.
-----------------------------------
Not a single one of my buyers has complained about paying a reasonble shipping and handling charge and have all left glowing feedbacks making note of the great packing and shipping especially on the delicate glassware. We cover our costs and we make a fair profit...averaging 55-60%.
We also start our auctions fairly low. I could just as easily add the shipping cost to the opening bid and advertise 'FREE Shipping". Actually intend to try that as a test on some lower cost items.
I've been a mail-order buyer and seller for over 10 years. I have over 1500 current mail order catalogs filed in my office. We closely watch the s/h averages and trends. There's LOTS of people in the US that have been buying mail-order for decades and they have no problem with standard s/h charges. Rural folks in particular who don't have a Walmart around the block and even less shopping options. Ebay to them is just another mail-order/online shopping option with the excitement of variable prices.
Ebay stopped being a pure-play auction format over 2 years ago. It's a retail operation now. Even antique dealers are retail operations. You buy a McCoy cookie jar at local auction for $10 and end up getting $30 for it on Ebay. $20 profit to pay the rent and wages etc and the $8.95 charged for shipping covers the shipping expenses on a break-even basis.
To each his own.
posted on February 26, 2001 01:56:56 AM new
I just had a hearty guffaw!!
tappatti: Standing in line certainly is LABOUR !!! So is USING A PEN !!!
*snicker*
I realize that most mailorder compaines do overcharge, but that is likely because they have employees who do the packaging of the stuff.
I, like kraftdinner, live in Canada. We seem to agree that it gets a little costly to be subsidizing people to stand in line when you buy quite a few things a month. What really gets me is when someone charges an amount like $3.00 to ship a baseball card in a normal-sized envelope, even if it is within the US. Since I prefer not to get raped by greedy sellers, I simply choose not to bid.
Another thing that confuses me is that dude up there who said that he doesn't like accepting cash. What could be more convienient than opening an envelope and having cash right away to pocket ???
Well, tapatiti, you saved me money on comedy club tickets by giving me a good laugh at your list. Thanks!!!
posted on February 26, 2001 03:11:03 AM new
If you want to bid, then bid. But don't come and try to re-negotiate the shipping/handling fee after the auction closes.
Classic example that happened to me this week: I'm distributing an e-book under the GNU Public License. According to the license, I can charge only actual expense (listing fee, media, shipping, etc.) plus a small handling fee. Generally anything under $10 is an acceptable handling or "distribution" fee. I charge a $5 distribution fee. (Remember I'm not making anything on the sale itself.) All this information is plainly stated in the auction description.
So I get this bidder who replies to my email, complaining about the handling fee. "I won't pay twice the cost of the item in handling fees." So we go back and forth a couple of emails, and he finally writes, "I'll pay actual shipping." Yeah, right. He's standing on his right not to get ripped off, but he doesn't seem to mind that I'm making nothing on the deal. No freakin' way!
Most customers are great, and realize that there really is more to eBay sales than just putting a stamp on an envelope. I spend hours each week chasing after deadbeats. I spend a lot of money replacing "lost" items, though the items never come back in the mail as undeliverable. Unfortunately, it's the paying customers who absorb those expenses.
Regarding a post above -- hey, if you don't think standing 20 minutes in line at the post office is labor, I'll be glad to "hire" you to take my stuff there. And I'll happily pay what you think your time is worth.
posted on February 26, 2001 04:57:10 AM new
whinecooler,
you're a gas!
I don't care much for dogs, but I love your comment. & I'll sell you my AU$ for less than 60c
kraftdinner & all others opposed to 'handling fees'. As logical people, if that's what we are, you must aknowledge that tapatti's list of costs, does sound reasonable.
It's a pitty for those that don't bid on items with 'handling' because there are enough bidders that will, and as sellers (ie. the market place) come to realise this then goods will NATURALY go into the hands of those willing to pay the most for goods+s+h & those of the frugal persuation will be left to buy the crap.
I am a dealer and I shouldn't have to make any appologies for not wishing to work for free.
You must read this thread
http://www.auctionwatch.com/mesg/read.html?num=2&thread=248362
Do they charge S&H at garage sales?
NO?????
Well then, grab a torch !!!!!
posted on February 26, 2001 06:39:23 AM new
I think it is in poor taste to ask for a better shipping rate. If the rate charged seems out of line then either do not bid or do not bid as high as you might have if the rate was lower. If I think someone's shipping rate is out of line(in total with the item) I simply won't bid.
Notice I said the total cost. I'd gladly pay a higher shipping cost if the item was still a bargain overall. The idea is to save money and not nitpick over the shipping cost.
posted on February 26, 2001 07:23:51 AM new
Hi folks,
I state in my TOS a 2.00 handling fee for international bidders mostly because I don't really want to deal with it. But when I had domestic only I was constantly getting e-mails if I would ship internationally, so that was my compromise.
As to Canadian rates, or international rates in general I often find that what I get with the calculator is not necessarily the cheapest or best. When I get to the post office I find out 'Oh! that box is small enough for letter mail etc, so it's sometimes tough to get it right from the get go.
I will say when I first started I quoted high rates for Canada because I listened to the PO people, I learned from my customers how to do cheaper. I now give them the best quote I find and offer if they know of a cheaper method to let me know and I will investigate.
However they need to do it before bidding. I just had someone trying to negotiate away the shipping fees after the auction was over, and I had quoted it to them a week ago, so they knew exactly what it would be.
That's all folks.
posted on February 26, 2001 07:24:23 AM newTAPITTI
Well said. The cost of S+H is part of the cost of doing business.
Bottom line: If you don't want to pay the sellers shipping don't buy the item.
I'm tired of listening to buyers (and some sellers) whine over what amounts to a few cents. (paypal fees, postage, ebay fees, etc.).
If you don't like it.......there's the door.
I can see being miffed by the guy that sells a 50 cent sports card, puts it in a 5 cent envelope with a stamp and charges $4.00 for S+H but leave the rest of us alone.
***********************************
The more PEOPLE I meet.........
posted on February 26, 2001 08:00:11 AM newAustbounty
DIDO.
I think what EVERYBODY needs to realize here is that all sellers have their own ways to sell. They know their product, their profit margins, the costs (both material and time) of shipping etc.
It seems everybody here wants everybody else to sell "their way". That's just not reasonable. Sellers should sell in the way they choose. If buyers don't want to buy then sellers either change their ways or drop by the wayside.
GENERALIZATION, especially by people who don't know all the facts, is just not fair or reasonable.
Another thing. Why is it that when it's in the buyers interest to say the seller is NOT a "real" business because they sell on internet auctions and shouldn't charge the same as other RETAIL mail order businesses because they don't have employees etc (another rediculous and self serving assumption)BUTwhen a buyer doesn't get everything they want they say how "unproffessional" the seller is?
If you want K-marts return policy got to K-MART. If you want FREE DELIVERY(in 30 minutes or less) ORDER A PIZZA!!!!
If you want to buy at PERSON TO PERSONAUCTIONS then ACCEPT that fact and allow the PERSON selling to sell his PERSONAL items the way he PERSONALLY SEES FIT!
YOU CAN'T HAVE IT BOTH WAYS!!!! Make up your minds.
BUYERS.
If you don't like the terms...........PASS!!!
[b](Buyers= "I want it CHEAP,
I want it NOW,
if it isn't the right color I want to return it,
I don't want to pay that much for shipping,
do you have that in another size,
can I pay on installments,
do you take American express,
will you ship internationally even though your auction says you won't,
could you please wipe the druel from my chin...............?
.........Uuuuuuuhhhhhh.........
I think my cheese has slid off my cracker, EH"[/b]
WAaaaaaaAAAAAAAaaaaaaaa (sniff)
SELLERS.
Remember: YOUR STANDARDS are just that.....YOURS. Don't impose them on others unless you know EXACTLY what you are talking about........heck, don't even do it then.
It's just NOT YOUR BUSINESS!!!
YOU MAY NOW STAND AND CHEER
***********************************
The more PEOPLE I meet.........
The more I like my DOG!!
[ edited by whinecooler on Feb 26, 2001 08:16 AM ]
posted on February 26, 2001 08:42:25 AM new
robboik:
What do YOU do for a living? Perhaps that could provide some more chuckles here. Don't start laughing until you know all the facts.
We run our online auctions and our e-commerce operations as a business. I don't do 'person-to-person' auctions...I'm not clearing out my basement. The person that stands in line at the Post Office for me is an employee. She's a single mother with 3 kids and virtually no marketable job skills.
A few months ago she was on welfare. Now when she's not at the post office she's back at our office being trained in HTML and Linux skills. We try to give something back to the community with our business endeavors. My previous list is not even HALF of what our and any other competent accountant will tell you what you have to account for when you're running a business.
We're as frugal as practically possible. We can't dumpster dive to collect used packing supplies due to the numerous rent-a-cop patrols that frown on that practice. Maybe I didn't make it clear before...we do NOT make a profit on s/h. We just barely cover our costs and plenty of times do not. The 55-60% margin we make on the sale of the item is GROSS. It's reduced by all other costs of running a business like actually reporting taxable income. People that accept cash usually don't report it to their taxing authorities. Of course said people usually have no problem consuming the public services that us taxpayers pay for but that's another thread. When I started doing auctions I really had no idea there were people out there that objected to the term
'handling'. I naturally assumed it just came with the term 'shipping'. Never realized that were people out there that would object to someone else making an honest living.
Thanks to the fellow sellers here that agree with the concept that we don't have to work for free. My 2-yr old wants her Gerber Oatmeal now and doesn't really care that Gerber covers all THEIR overhead into the sales price too. I do what I can to feed my kids and help feed some others, life is short. Do what you can before you go 6ft under. Have a nice day.
posted on February 26, 2001 08:57:19 AM new
I never bid on an auction without knowing the shipping cost. If it doesn't say, then I don't bid unless I really want it (then I email the seller and ask how much). If the auction says that international will be more -- email and ask what the shipping & handling will be (BEFORE YOU BID). The seller should know how much their item weighs, so it's not impossible for you to find out.
I always put shipping on my auctions, but only have 2 categories: US and international. I've found that even though shipping to Canada & Mexico is less than overseas, it's not by much and I end up haggling (which I HATE) or getting screwed in the shipping. It costs more to ship internationally than to ship within the US, since I can simply drop US packages in the mail slot and not personally take them into the post office and fill out customs forms.
And this is a whole 'nother topic, but I also HATE when people ask me to lie on customs! Grr!
posted on February 26, 2001 09:03:16 AM new
Personally I'm not offended if someone questions my shipping options as long as it's done before they bid.
Just today I've received 2 emails from someone who wants me to ship magazines Book Rate instead of Parcel Post. Only problem is, I know that magazines don't qualify for Book RAte. Propective buyer emails me a second time insisting that she has been told by her local post office that magazines qualify as Bound Printed Matter and would appreciate my helping out buyers by only charging such. I email back that, sorry, my local post office says only advertising materials like catalogs and brochures can go Bound Printed matter. Magazines must go either Priority Mail or Parcel Post. I then told her if she didn't feel comfortable with my shipping charge, she has the option to not bid.
There is nothing wrong with asking once, but asking a second time and not wanting to take no for an answer is rather rude.
posted on February 26, 2001 09:04:57 AM new
Tapatti
That's funny, thanks for the chuckle. I think you missed my point? I live in Canada, if I was to charge the *actual* shipping cost, PLUS a *handling* fee for the 50 cents worth of bubble wrap, [most of my boxes are free] & a fee for my *time & labour*, I doubt I'd get half the bids that I do now. IOW - my final prices would be much lower, and so would my profit margin. Get it?
Being located in Canada is already a strike against me. There are many buyers who will not buy from outside their home country, but if I make my ads & TOS more appealing than some of the USA sellers in my categories, I've found I can get their bids.
I eat a few $ on each sale, but the increased bids on my items make up for that shipping cost loss, and in my experiance, much, much more.
I've been selling on eBay for 3 1/2 yrs, and have a pretty good handle on what buyers want in the way of service, and what they're willing to pay for that service. I watch the average weekly prices on the items I sell very closely. Many times my items end up finishing at much higher prices, sometimes more than double of what other sellers are receiving for the same items.
P.S. I sell antiques & collectibles, not $5 videos.
And unlike Sotheby's, I don't have to pay someone a ridiculous fee to pack & ship my items.
posted on February 26, 2001 09:26:20 AM new
Thanks for the post Reddeer, I couldn't have said it better.
Kraftdinner,
Ask, what have you got to lose?
Either a seller will say, gee sorry or negotiate to yes. Depends on how competative the catagory is.
Ask prior to bidding.
I don't know why folks don't do this anyhow, you can learn volumes about a seller about how they answer your questions.
To be honest, I don't consider sellers on ebay on par with mass market mailorder houses.
1)they pay higher rates for shipping costs
2)they don't have the infrastructure on par with, say, an eddie bauer.
So while 1) makes it more expensive 2) It isn't a fixed expense with a fixed price for the item they are selling.
What do I mean? Well if I sell a widget at auction for a fixed price of $10, and it's a common, new item, then I am less likely to budge on my shipping. Each expense is factored into the cost. (I had a gig at EB back in "the day" LOL)
BUT, if I sell a vintage widget that has considerable markup based on my great find or a bidding war or the inflated prices seen in the catagory, then I won't sweat each expense the way TApatti does in her posts.
I may, though, say to a bidder, sorry, I have got to ship this way because it is safer. And I will stand firm on shipping after the auction is over. But to be honest, if someone wants to get media rate, and asks prior to an auction, I don't care. I carefully remind them that it could get lost and is untraceable. Though I send bookrate on all my Amazon auctions without a peep.
posted on February 26, 2001 09:27:04 AM new
Canvid
I never said there was. I was simply trying to express the fact that if I DID sell $5 videos, I might be looking at the S&H situation differently than I do with the items I sell. My profits are much higher on the items I sell. No offense was meant, or implied to sellers of $5 videos.
BTW - As I've stated from the get-go, I don't have a problem with sellers who charge a handling fee, as long as the S&H costs are clearly stated in the auction.
Also, the originator of this thread didn't seem to have a problem with handling fees either, what they were complaining about was sellers who charged 2-3 times the actual postage cost of the items.
Again - IMO a buyer should ask *before* they place a bid, and not after they become the high bidder.
BTW - I try & bend over backwards for my customers [even the whackos], but I'm not one to flex too much *after* the auction is over.
I have MY way of doing things, and if the high bidder wants something quadruple boxed, I expect them to ask about that *before* the auction is over, and to pay for the extra handling I give that item.
It really all comes down to open communication between the 2 parties.
98% of my high bidders have been GREAT people do deal with, and all in all I'd say those are pretty easy stats to live with.
posted on February 26, 2001 09:42:58 AM new
I don't "sweat' the expenses. We're just mindful of them due to sound professional CPA advise and charge accordingly.
We don't get the chance to regularly gouge '3-20' times the value of an item out of our auction customers. If we did we could probably double sales by stating 'free' shipping. Six of one thing and half a dozen of the other. Our methods work for us now. They may or may not continue to work. With zero negs and only 1 unhappy transaction (that we know of) and customer comments like:
-SUPERFAST SHIPMENT
-PACKAGE GREAT AND FAST SERVICE...CLASS A++++
-THIS SELLER REALLY PACKS WELL AND SHIPS QUICKLY!
-Beautiful! Packaged really well!!! THANKS!!
-Lightning fast turn-around time! A+!!
-Perfectly packed & arriving with the speed of light!
-Shipped promptly and carefully. Highly recommended
-Good deal, fast shipment!!!!
-Very efficent transaction and shipping
-fast shipping, careful packing, terrific merchandise
-Fast response, nice to work with, super packing, very pleased with item - Thanks
I'd say we're on the right track. BTW, I'm not a she...I'm a single father. I always heed the advice of my CPA and my Pediatrician. The lawyer..well I filter what she has to say about a lot of things.
posted on February 26, 2001 09:54:13 AM new
I have a set shipping & handling fee for my auctions with the note shipping to Canada will be higher. After auction I package up item and get the exact postage for air, surface etc. and let the Canadian buyer decide how they want it shipped. I've never had a complaint, they all know it's going to be more expensive. If they write me before bidding, I tell them they will be charged the exact postage for their choice of shipping.
[/b]
in.
