posted on March 7, 2001 08:33:54 AM
tapatti ... start reporting a few of these sellers and see if my "theory" holds true (that some sellers are more equal than others).
I would, but I don't know enough about software and CD-R to be able to back up any arguments I could make ...
posted on March 7, 2001 08:57:40 AM
RB:
Your theory is probably 100% accurate.
I just checked this particular seller and he went from 400 fb in 11/00 to over 950 today.
He does nothing but these PDA Shareware collections and currently has 55 dutch 3-day auctions running all for variations of the same product. The only fault I see with these listings is he does not specifically state in the auction that the 7000 programs are shareware/freeware/trial. The 3-day auction is a hint though that he must have had some cancelled. It's harder for Ebay to react and cancel in the 3-day time frame.
I'd rather not report a fellow seller because honestly I don't see it as wrong and I've been wanting to publish and sell a similiar line of products.
Shareware publication and distribution was a big thing a few years ago in the age of floppies and BBS's and is 100% legal when you follow the Shareware Authors Guild distribution guidelines. As a publisher you don't sell the programs you sell a distribution and media fee. I really don't see where Ebay gets off with this 'ban'. Whether I burn 20 CD's myself or get 100 from the CD dupe house...it's still a CD-R format.
So Ebay is saying that I can not sell the extra Columbia House Music CD's I occassionaly pay for? Sounds like Ebay has a overflow supply of horseshite in house.
posted on March 7, 2001 09:10:38 AM
I am going to try to respond to some of your questions (if I can remember)
The software was MS Office Pro 2000
It doesn't say academic anywhere but no I can't be sure it isn't!!
Interesting note: my husband installed one copy and the 2 options on language were english/hebrew!!
Yes I am a small time seller, just started listing about 30 items a week about 2 weeks ago, used to list about 10 items a week.
No I never tried to relist this after I was suspended, but did list two days in a row, first day ended with buy it now!! 2nd was when they punished me!!
For those of you who are thinking I am hiding something.......my email address is [email protected] as is my user name!! I have nothing to hide!!
I have 4 of these in stock.....that's it....no there is not more to the story like some have accused!!!
I have never had any complaints from any buyers/sellers with my history from ebay.
I have 194? feedback...all glowing except 1 neutral...which I fixed and she responded with--a I will buy from this seller again!!
I did some research...apparently some other people selling other types of items that are copyrighted have had there auction cancelled but not suspended.
Some company's will not allow you to sell ANY of their items on Ebay, new/used/whatever....I can see this closing ebay...everything we purchase from food to clothing is copyrighted....in some instances I can interprit this situation to mean we can't sell ANYTHING ANYMORE because if you think about it EVERTHING is copyrighted!!
I now software is easily pirated, so I can see them cracking down on that department...but this is getting scary...I wonder what the future brings?????
You're right it is scary! Using the same screwed up Vero logic that Ebay has adopted no one should be able to sell any second-hand or used:
Books
Vinyl LP's
Cassettes
Music CD's
Video Movies
DVD's
All of these products were naturally protected by copyright to prevent unauthorized DUPLICATION. The actual REAL US Copyright law does NOT prohibit people from selling their own legally purchased copy of any copyright protected work. Maybe Ebay has a different version that they read from.
I have a ton of MS software that was legally purchased at retail that I no longer use. I'm going to analyze the EULA on them and then post some auctions and dare Ebay/Microsoft to cancel them. I smell a class action lawsuit.
posted on March 7, 2001 09:53:13 AM
jlady ~ since you only had the CD and the registation key, read yisgood's explanation. That is about as close as it's going to come to as to WHY the auctions were pulled. Basically, it comes down to the fact that none of those Offce 2000 programs have any documentation (license) with them. IF you had all the documentation with these programs, then you would not be having these problems. Basically, it comes down to the fact, that unless you have everything that would come in a boxed program (such as bought at Best Buys, Office Depot, etc).. the the software runs a chance of it being pirated in one way or another.
As to why you were suspended from ebay, does the notice you received from them give you a timeframe or is it indefinite? Call/email them and let them know that you never had any other offenses and ask why you were suspended since you had no other warnings.
As far as the software you're stuck with.... I'd take it back to the person you purchased it from and find out if there's any documentation that goes with it/them. If not, I'd get my money back if I were you...... unless you happen to have 5 friends who really want Office 2000 and you want to give it to them.......... cause it's useless for resale otherwise (at least as far as auctioning goes) .
I'm not sure about the Columbia House music stuff. I deal in video tapes and I have got to know the Columbia folks quite well over the years and years I have been buying stuff from them.
I think one of the reasons they have a problem with resale of their re-tv collections is that most of the tapes that are listed and sold on eBay are the pilot eps - the ones you can get for 89 cents. A lot of people sign up, take the first tape for 89 cents, then cancel their membership. The tape ends up on eBay for $19.99 and a lot of extra peperwork is created for Columbia House.
There are also several tv episodes that are available through the Columbia House collection and also available through other producers. The Columbia House product is usally better quality and is always better packaged. They may have a concern about their product ending up on the shelf of a retail joing alongside one of the cheaper ones issued by a different studio, and this could hurt their reputation (word of mouth "don't buy the Columbia House stuff 'cause it's too expensive" kind of thing).
I believe anyone who has purchased their collections through a subscription has the right to sell them (as I attempted to do with my Columbia House "V" series on eBay) regardless of what Columbia House says. There is something about a "first sale" rule or law that I recall hearing about. Same thing should apply to your audio CD's and computer software as long as it is original and complete.
The whole point of MY exercise is not to hurt sellers. I am simply expanding my data against eBay that I will gladly share with the first group who decide on a class action suit against eBay. It's not even so much the double standard that eBay appears to practice (they can make their own rules as I have been told ad nauseum when I go on these tirades), but more about the fact that they are KNOWINGLY allowing thousands of illegal items to be sold on their site - not the Columbia House stuff, but very obvious bootlegs that I have been reporting to them for the past 6 months.
To me, this isn't a whole bunch different than helping a criminal profit by his illegal activity. eBay won't be able to fall back on their "we're just a venue and we can't police our site" BS when the Judge sees the type of info I have been able to collect.
All I ever wanted from them was a public apology on this forum for treating me like a piece of crap - I don't even want to be reinstated. Until they do that, I won't stop, and eventually some smart young lawyer is going to run with all of this stuff and bring down the eBay regime
posted on March 7, 2001 11:26:11 AM
RB: Understood. Documentation is good. I use IE's 'Save as web page-complete' on any auctions I find 'interesting'. The Columbia House people are full of hot air though. There's no way their argument would stand legal scrutiny. I see those videos all the time at estate sales, thrift stores etc. So their position is that if I buy 5 All in the Family tapes at a garage sale I'm 'prohibited' from reselling them on Ebay and the orginal owner sold them to me illegally? Screw them.
posted on March 7, 2001 11:26:31 AMSome company's will not allow you to sell ANY of their items on Ebay, new/used/whatever....I can see this closing ebay...everything we purchase from food to clothing is copyrighted....in some instances I can interprit this situation to mean we can't sell ANYTHING ANYMORE because if you think about it EVERTHING is copyrighted!!
Just to get the forces lined up correctly...
eBay will not allow you to sell selected items. The "other" company asks this of eBay, and eBay grants their request. So long as the CDs you were selling were produced by Microsoft and purchased (rather than stolen) from Microsoft, your action was legal, and there exist no legal requirement for eBay to disrupt the sale.
eBay does this because it's easier to suspend you than to fight with Microsoft.
posted on March 7, 2001 11:43:13 AM
Here is a copy of the e-mail that was probably sent. My friend got it last night cause the software he was selling was thought to be bad. It was MS Office that we have bought several copies of and use in our office. This also answers the question about MS being in the Vero Program.
Dear XXXXXXXXXXXX,
We regret to inform you that your auction:
XXXXXXX Microsoft XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
has been ended at the request of Microsoft, a member of eBay's Verified Rights Owner (VeRO) Program, because they filed a sworn statement that it offers a product or contains material which violates their copyright, trademark or other rights. In the interest of protecting all eBay members, we end such auctions to avoid any association with potentially infringing or unlawful items.
We understand that sometimes mistakes can be made. If you feel your auction was ended in error, contact Microsoft directly by emailing them at [email protected], and read their eBay About Me page at:
Of course, eBay is available to answer questions, but since only the rights owner understands their products and policies, we encourage you to contact them first. If we agree a mistake has been made or Microsoft notifies us, we will allow you to relist the item, and notify the bidders.
We also understand that even if your item is infringing, you may have been unaware of that fact, and may have listed the item with the best of intentions. Unfortunately, even if this is so, you still could face potential liability, so ending the auction is still necessary.
to learn more. All Bidders have been notified and any associated fees have been credited to your account.
**Keep in mind that listing of prohibited, questionable or infringing items, or the re-listing of ended items without the approval of eBay, can result in your suspension from eBay.
Below is information provided by Microsoft:
Dear Vendor:
The distribution of counterfeit and other unauthorized software on the Internet, including on Internet auction sites, is a serious problem. The practice harms consumers who purchase the software, because they have no right to use the software that they receive. This software may also put at risk the integrity of their computer systems. To address this problem and protect consumers, Microsoft and other software publishers continually monitor the Internet to identify sites where unauthorized software is being made available. This process led us to your auction on eBay.
Microsoft believes that the software offered in this auction infringes its copyrights and/or its trademarks, either because the software is not genuine, or because the proposed transaction is otherwise unauthorized. In addition to counterfeit software, unauthorized software includes:
 Original Equipment Manufacturer (OEM) software sold separately from the computer with which it was purchased;
 Academic versions of Microsoft software sold to non-qualified users;
 Worldwide Fulfillment software (frequently sold as shrink-wrapped CDs);
 Software sold without the user manual, end-user license agreement, and a Certificate of Authenticity (e.g. CD-only sales; software pre-loaded on hard drives)
Microsoft demands that you cease and desist from distributing unauthorized Microsoft software immediately. Microsoft reserves the right to seek all applicable legal remedies without further notice. Under U.S. law, a person who distributes counterfeit or other unauthorized software is liable for damages and may even face criminal penalties, including fines and imprisonment.
If you have further questions about the termination of this auction, please feel free to contact us directly through [email protected]. You should provide the following information:
 The number of the auction about which you are inquiring
 The site where your auction was located
 A detailed description of the software components being offered, including the packaging of these components
 A brief description of the transaction through which you acquired the software
Upon receipt of this information, a member of our team will further review your auction and contact you to address any specific concerns you may have. If we determine that your auction was terminated in error, we will contact eBay to advise them that Microsoft has no objection to the reinstatement of your auction.
For information on obtaining genuine Microsoft software, you can locate one of our authorized merchants through the search engine provided at http://www.microsoft.com/shop/default.htm. If you can provide information regarding a source of unauthorized Microsoft software, please e-mail us at [email protected]. For more information regarding Microsofts efforts to combat the distribution of counterfeit and other unauthorized software, please visit the Microsoft Anti-Piracy homepage at http://www.microsoft.com/piracy/.
posted on March 7, 2001 12:53:13 PM
sg52 ... it goes like this ...
Suppose you own a store that allows your customers to sell stuff on consignment (eBay)
Suppose I bring in something to sell and ask you to put it in your window so potential customers can see it (the bootlegger)
Suppose a few days later, a cop (the expert) happens by, sees the item, recognizes it as an illegal item, and comes in and tells you: "That item is illegal and you cannot sell it." (the email to SafeHarbour)
You tell the cop to take a hike, you sell the item anyway, and you pocket your percentage (the bot response from SafeHarbour)
You, my friend, have just participated in a felony and are subject to the same prosecution that the seller is.
If you didn't know the item was illegal, and you got a good lawyer, you could probably beat the rap.
In eBay's case, if they don't know about the illegality of the item (we can't police our site), then maybe they could beat it to.
OTOH, it they are told about the illegal item and even given a method to verify for themselves (the so-called investigation)that it is illegal, and if they do nothing, they become part of the criminal activity.
Get it?
Now, eBay will tell you that they will not react unless the copyright owner contacts them directly. This is nonsense. By the time the copyright owner is notified and can react, the listing has closed and the seller is on his way to the bank.
The answer that eBay will tell you is join VeRO. This is more nonsense. How many legit owners of copyrighted items that sell on eBay even know that eBay exists? Why should a copyright owner have to join some secret society and pay dues just to protect his work?
There are 1000's of experts out there who can help eBay make these decisions. In fact, they ask for this help. If eBay has any doubt about the expert's advice, or any questions concerning the item, would it not make more sense for them to temporarily suspend the auction and ask the seller for proof of authorization to sell the item, rather than ending the auction and in some cases, suspending the seller?
eBay has created their own set of rules, and like I will no doubt be told (!), if I don't like them, I don't have to play there.
Problem is, one of their very basic rules is that "you are guilty until you can prove yourself innocent, and by the way, we just had your trial, found you guilty, and convicted you in your absence."
I don't care who you are, this type of philosophy goes way beyond common sense ...
[ edited by RB on Mar 7, 2001 12:54 PM ]
posted on March 8, 2001 10:32:00 AM
Thank you for your e-mail. We do not allow items to be listed on eBay
that may be questionable in nature. I recommend you read the following
to help you before you list the item on eBay.
For more information on our policies concerning software items, please
use the following link to our site:
If you are unable to determine if your item can be legally sold after
reviewing this information, you may want to contact the copyright holder
of the item in question.
They will be able to give you more information concerning whether or not
you can sell your item. Microsoft does have strict standards and
licensing requirements to sell used Retail software. Before you sell
your item you should check and see if you have the following:
1. Certificate of Authenticity
2. Manual
3. Registration Card
4. Retail Box
5. End User Licence Agreement
6. Original Media in Jewel Case with Cd-Key on back
You can contact Microsoft with specific questions at
[email protected] or contact them at 1-800-RU-LEGIT for specific
question's on selling their products.
Through our Verified Rights Owner (VeRO) program, rights owners such as
Microsoft can request the ending of auctions they feel infringe upon
their rights.
eBay does not and cannot verify that sellers have the right or ability
to sell or distribute their listed items. However, we are committed to
removing infringing or unlicensed items once an authorized
representative of the rights owner properly reports them to us. eBay's
Verified Rights Owner (VeRO) Program works to ensure that items listed
for auction do not infringe upon the copyright, trademark or other
intellectual property rights of third parties. VeRO Program participants
may identify and request removal of allegedly infringing auction
listings.
More information about the VeRO program can be found at:
