posted on March 23, 2001 08:04:21 AM
Question: "does USPS Delivery Confirmation satisfy the PayPal proof of delivery step for chargeback protection?" It's a concise, yes or no question.
Ok, let's check paypaldamon's answers.
proof-of-shipment which can be tracked online
Surely no yes here. We're left to wonder what might be missing.
Proof of delivery would be delivery confirmation (or any other form of tracking used by shipping services.)
No "yes" here, we're still wondering what is missing.
The Seller Protection Program is for adequate proof of delivery, which would include delivery confirmation (or, as mentioned, UPS and FedEx also offer tracking) and it has to be trackable on-line (postal receipts do not count because they can be modified).
Same stuff. No "yes", rather a "maybe if".
Delivery confirmation that can be tracked on-line is sufficient proof of delivery. This would also apply to other services that can be tracked on-line (UPS or FEDEX tracking numbers,etc.)
Again, "maybe if".
And, lastly, while asking me to review past answers, paypaldamonstill delcines the unqualified "yes", suggesting that 4 "maybe if's" should be good enough.
There was one "yes", the one which prompted my previous posting.
Hi blacklabel,
Yes. That can be tracked on-line.
This was as close as it got.
Note again, it contains a "maybe if", as in "it can be used when it can be tracked online to our standards, but we're not sure if the USPS always makes DC trackable online (to our standards). In those cases where DC was purchased but does not meet our online tracking requirements, seller has failed to complete the proof-of-delivery step, and is not protected from chargeback".
What's the deal, paypaldamon? Is it a "yes, always", or is there some gotcha? We're not discussing a pig in the poke here. We're discussing the form of "proof of delivery" which is by far the most commonly used by PayPal sellers.
posted on March 23, 2001 11:45:01 AMsg52 Kind of beat me to it, I was busy at work so did not have time to address this. But now it is lunch. sg52 has the same concerns as I do and I would like to add one more thing to clearly state where I am coming from on this.
The seller can provide reasonable proof-of-shipment which can be tracked online. This document must show that you shipped to the buyer's Confirmed Address.
This is from Damon's post like #3 in this thread quoting the PayPal Seller Protection Policy. What he is saying in his last post to SG52 above directly contradicts this when he says it does conform. This is what is getting me.
See the second line of that statement? As I and AZGamer, laum1 and oh I think there is one more up there have pointed out it does not do that. Just flat out no way, no how, does the .40 Green Delivery Tracking that is availal only on Priority and Standard mail proof of that.
The buyers confirmed address is not on it. When I fill out the paper work on it I only put the last name and check the priority box. When the package arrives to somewhere in Texas for example, you have no idea that it went to the buyer. I could give you a tracking number and you do not even know it was sent by me cause that is not in the computer either just the post office that excepted it.
So I am not going to ask again, you have stated that it is enough and I have this thread marked.
Thank You
Jim
Edited to correct SG52 to sg52
[ edited by lanefamily on Mar 23, 2001 11:46 AM ]
posted on March 23, 2001 12:33:10 PM
Hi lanefamily,
It (delivery confirmation) is sufficient proof of shipping/delivery, which can only be provided through a tracking mechanism like delivery confirmation (or any of the other tracking services offered by other carriers).
The only caveat is that it has to be tracked on-line. Postal receipts for proof of mailing would not count.
posted on March 23, 2001 12:48:09 PM
I understand about the proof of mailing not being usable, you explained that earlier by saying No, it has to be tracked online
I was just wanting better clearification based on my statement above that delivery confermation did not conform to your own rules as I have shown.
If you say it does I am happy with that. The only reason I want to be really really clear is I have been taken once by PayPal, I do not want it to happen again. Most of my bidders I can convert to Billpoint but some still want PayPal so I keep my account. As a seller I try to conform to by bidders requests but not if there is chance in loosing my money.
Thank you
Jim
edited to correct some of the spelling
[ edited by lanefamily on Mar 23, 2001 12:49 PM ]
posted on March 25, 2001 09:50:21 AMFor those that are interested---I could actually breakdown the why's of the Seller Protection Program if it would help clarify matters more.
That's not what we want.
We want an unequivocal statement that USPS Delivery Confirmation is ALWAYS sufficient proof of delivery to meet PayPal's chargeback defense step.
No "why".
No "maybe if".
No statements of what the requirements are.
An unqualified yes or no.
I think you are looking at the issue a little harder than it needs to be.
So instead of a concise answer, you point to ME?
Some people read alt.religion.scientology. They see the pros answer with non-answers, twists, and suggestions that the questioner has a problem. Doesn't work there. Doesn't work here either.
posted on March 25, 2001 10:11:03 AM
So, after reading two pages worth of messages I still don't know if USPS Delivery Confirmation is good enough. I guess I agree with sg52, I just want a yes or no. One post with just that question and answer. No expaination, just that.
Methinks someone has been spending too much time on alt.religion.scientology - the question has been answered numerous times in many threads. Its also very clear on the site. However if its a conspiracy you're looking for you can continue parsing words ad nauseum. Reminds me of the impeachment hearings, although not as entertaining.
posted on March 25, 2001 01:22:14 PM
Delivery confirmation is a waste of money. It's just the PO way to gouge more cash from us. It doesn't confirm anything; it's just a little sticker that they charge extra for and makes a little scanner go "beep beep." If you got a "From" address and a "To" address, it will get there. Eventually. Maybe.
posted on March 25, 2001 01:52:35 PM
If you look at a delivery confirmation form
the part that you get back from the post office with their date stamp on it has a block with three lines in it, the block is identified as Article sent to: (to be completed by mailer). This is probrobly where pay pal gets the comfirmed shipping
infromation which you must provide them when asked for by them.
posted on March 25, 2001 02:43:15 PM
First, FYI, the Post Office now has something called "signature required delivery confirmation." It costs 1.75 and you not only get proof of delivery, you get the recipient's signature.
Second, the problem with charge backs is that Paypal does not make the decision. The buyer's credit card company does. I have to give Paypal mixed reviews on this one. They are trying to reduce the problem of false charge backs. However, the credit card companies are not cooperating. So PP is trying to play it both ways, offering a protection that they can't really guarantee. This is still better than Paydirect, which has allowed the same buyer to repeatedly charge back numerous items until a few sellers got together and had the buyer charged with fraud. Paypal would have at least frozen the buyer's account. But at the same time you can't expect Paypal to assume YOUR risk of charge back. So what Paypal should do, is state that the charge back decision will be made by the credit card company and they will assist in fighting false charge backs. Instead, they raise high expectations by promising protection that, based on reports here, very few people actually get. I know of one seller who was charged back and then told by Paypal that USPS delivery confirmation is not acceptable proof because it doesnt carry a signature.
So in summary, the problem of charge backs is not a Paypal problem. Paypal is trying to reduce this problem. However, Paypal is in the habit of making promises they can't keep.
posted on March 25, 2001 03:44:40 PMIts also very clear on the site.
URL, please?
Not a URL where the requirements are spelled out.
A URL which answers the question with a yes or a no regarding USPS Delivery Confirmation.
I see no conspiricy either here or ars. What I see both places is people who are trained to pursuade an audience that repeated non-answers sum up to a real answer.
I see the same attitude at various quack medical providers...who just never quite answer the question.
Just so you will recognize the signs (sort
of in order of how they seem to arrive):
1. Refer to some authoritative document or body, implying that the question has already been answered by someone much better at such things than poster.
2. Claim to have answered the unanswered question many times in the past, making a current answer unnecessary.
3: Attack the questioner. Suggest that questioner must have some evil motive for continuing to ask the unanswered question.
4. Divert the discussion, suggesting that the discussing the unanswered question has become boring, that the audience isn't interested any more.
5. Outwait questioner. Iterate through the above list (with variants) until questioner finally "gets it": no answer is coming.
Finally, I do not accuse PayPal of using intimidation techniques to battle their critics. I've never been harassed in any way by PayPal.
posted on March 25, 2001 04:06:15 PM
YISGOOD makes a good point!
In the instance of a chargeback the seller should deal directly with the CC issueing payment through PayPal.
You want us to use Delivery Confirmation but as stated my many that is NO GOOD and only the number is used by you because it has to be able to be "confirmed ONLINE". That only prooves that the item went to a city/state/zip code and NOT the confirmed PayPal address.
The mailing receipts I get show the destination zip code (same thing the Delivery Confirmation number would do for you) and a scan of this should be sufficient as it shows the same thing. This simply can not be altered as I believe you mentioned.
Also a buyer should not be able to do a chargeback until they go through steps to file for insurance and if insurance was offered and not accepted by the buyer then the buyer should be shi* out of luck as the seller did make the offer. This should be added into your protection plan.
PayPal has flawed policies and you should reconsider them....but I forget....you reconsider them all the time and change them and then don't make it known to your users unless they hunt through your site.
By the way I seem to be receiving more and more snail mail payments each and every time you "adjust" your policies to YOUR liking! Any other sellers have this happen? Buyers are you preferring to just send this way?
posted on March 25, 2001 04:26:28 PMAlso a buyer should not be able to do a chargeback until they go through steps to file for insurance and if insurance was offered and not accepted by the buyer then the buyer should be shi* out of luck as the seller did make the offer. This should be added into your protection plan.
PayPal has no voice regarding credit card chargeback rules. Nothing at all.
Consumer rights are specified by federal law. That law makes places no requirement upon a buyer who does not receive the stuff do do anything at all except to formally report the non-recipt.
Credit card companies typically expand consumer rights, because consumers hold a much more powerful political hand.
posted on March 25, 2001 05:12:28 PM
FYI: The USPO also offers a 'new' service called "Signature Delivery Confirmation". Essentially it tells you who signed for it. Pluses and minuses there too: costs more, and if your buyer isn't home, he has to make a special trip to the p.o. That's a pain in the backside, esp. when you live 15 miles from your p.o. like I do!
posted on March 25, 2001 05:47:56 PMand if your buyer isn't home, he has to make a special trip to the p.o. That's a pain in the backside, esp. when you live 15 miles from your p.o. like I do!
It's even more a pain in the backside when buyer never gets around to picking the thing up...but wants it sent again.
Perhaps if you could seperate PayPal and Scientology in your mind the terms would become clearer to you? Connecting the two is a real stretch, although not an unexpected one on this board.
posted on March 25, 2001 09:02:57 PM
How about the quack medical providers?
I don't believe that PayPal is a conspiracy or even hostile in any way. I don't believe them to be crooks.
I do believe that paypaldamon understands that the answer to the question at hand is "no", but has chosen to allow lots of people here believe it to be "yes".
posted on March 26, 2001 11:20:34 AM
The Postal Service now offers SIGNATURE Confirmation. It works like delivery confirmation but has to be signed by recipient. It looks like the DC, but is pink instead of green. I can't remember the exact price, but I think it's just over a dollar. I'm pretty sure you could look at the USPS website and find more info on it. You might consider this option.
I use DC myself. In addition, my postal receipt has the weights and zip code of everything I mailed. I think this is enough proof of shipment, although I do know that it is not proof of RECEIPT. I always (at my own expense) pay for insurance if a buyer seems fishy. So far I have had pretty good instincts for that kind of thing.
The Seller Protection Program is designed to protect recipients of payments from charge backs. As a condition of eliminating the recipient's liability from the charge backs, we ask that they provide us with adequate proof of delivery, which is considered any method of tracking that can be done on-line through any of the major carriers (this serves as adequate proof of delivery and should be considered interchangeable with shipment---you don't get a tracking number without shipping it).
Charge back decisions are rendered, ultimately, by the credit card company.
Most of the payment services do not offer any protection to the recipient that the money will not be pulled out from a charge back---we are provided that the user follows some very specific steps that help reduce the probability of a charge back from happening in the first place.
This has to be tracked on-line, be it through delivery confirmation through the USPS or the tracking numbers that FedEx or UPS use. Proof of shipment/delivery should be considered interchangeable in this instance because we are tracking whether or not the item got to a shipment stage.
The same information has been repeated more than once (what delivery methods and why---and how it is considered adequate proof of delivery/shipment, which is what is needed)
Can you please tell me what kind of answer you are looking for so that I can phrase it in the manner you are looking for? I am having a hard time figuring out why it is not understood that---
1. The item has to be tracked on-line.
2. Seller has to have adequate proof of delivery/shipment (delivery confirmation or any other tracking mechanism that can be done on-line). Whether or not the USPS, or any of the other agencies gets it there, is not the primary concern---we are asking for proof that the seller shipped the item.
posted on March 26, 2001 04:00:11 PM
What about the times when the P.O. screws up and it never gets tracked, or if the "delivery" shows a totally different city and/or state than the address on the package (these problems have appeared in other threads)??
posted on March 26, 2001 04:17:39 PM
What is the matter with you people, sg52 is the only one making sense here. PPdemon has not directly answered the question, he just keeps skirting the issue, never once giving a definite yes or no. He wants you to believe yes without ever having to actually say it. He could end all the confusion with one word, but we will get it, I don't think so.
USPS Delivery Confirmation is ALWAYS sufficient proof of delivery to meet PayPal's chargeback defense step.
I understand that the issues with PayPal are very sensitive in nature. However, PayPalDamon as a business representative, should still be given respect and courtesy deserved of all posters.
Thank you for your consideration,
Marty
[ edited by MartyAW on Mar 26, 2001 04:30 PM ]
Yes, as long as it can be tracked on-line. I am not skirting the issue and I have stated the same item several times to reinforce it. Delivery Confirmation is acceptable as long as it can be tracked on-line.
However, this is not the only item needed for the Seller Protection Program and I can post those details again (if it will help).
Any tracking mechanism that can be done on-line, including Delivery Confirmation, is sufficient proof.
posted on March 26, 2001 06:05:05 PM
I apologize for being disrespectul, it was uncalled for, but its just like talking to a lawyer, yes or no does not exist.
Delivery Confirmation is acceptable as long as it can be tracked on-line
I guess this is where I lose it, isn't all DC tracked on-line, when is it not tracked on-line? I really don't have a choice, I pay for it and expect the mailman to take care of it. What DC is not trackable on-line.
[ edited by doninpa on Mar 26, 2001 06:13 PM ]
[ edited by lanefamily on Mar 23, 2001 12:49 PM ]