I am sorry if it seems fairly vague, but I have been stressing the same point(s) over and over and view it as fairly intuitive.
If delivery confirmation is needed to be protected under the Seller Protection Program, and it can be tracked on-line, then it wouldn't matter what kind of delivery confirmation was utilized--- provided it could be tracked on-line (several carriers have the capability of tracking a package on-line, including the USPS,UPS,and Fedex).
Printed receipts would not stand because they are modifiable.
I think that the part that could be confusing is that it is "adequate proof of delivery"---this basically means that all we need is proof the item was shipped, not that the post office (or any other vendor) lost the package,etc. In this view, it should be viewed as delivery confirmation is equal to proof of delivery and/or shipment.
posted on March 26, 2001 06:51:13 PM
roflol! this thead has evolved into something soooo funny!
palpaldamon, i believe you truly don't get the difference between what has been requested you answer, and what you have answered. i appreciate you've sincerely tried and *thought* you'd answered several times. let me try my hand at explaining.
people here wanted to know *only* about usps delivery confirmation, whether it would suffice for paypal's protection plan [assuming the other requirements were met]. not about ups, not about fex ed. usps dc, *only*! your adding 'if it can be tracked online' made many of us [myself included] wonder if all usps dc was trackable online or not. were there some that are and some that aren't? how did we know if we got the kind that is, or not!
that's all this was about. so i'm assuming the answer is YES, usps [forget about ups and fed ex and any others] delivery confirmation IS trackable online - all usps delivery confirmations - and IS acceptable proof for paypal.
posted on March 26, 2001 07:02:11 PM
Hi kittykittykitty,
Thanks. Perhaps this approach will work.
All shipping providers that provide a trackable number on-line will suffice as evidence for our the purposes of the Seller Protection Program (with the understanding that there are several components to the Seller Protection Program, including shipping the item to the confirmed address on file, not shipping internationally, and not accepting payments from multiple accounts for a single purchase).
This would include:
1. Delivery Confirmation (provided by the USPS). This is just one of several items (I believe) that can be tracked on-line through the USPS.
2. UPS, for example, has a service called Groundtrac. This would also suffice. Many overnight packages can also be tracked on-line.
3. FedEx users can also have their packages tracked on-line.
All we need is proof that the item was shipped by the party receiving the payment for goods and that they did.
Simply stating (and I am not trying to be rude)---if you send something through someone and it can somehow be tracked on-line, it will serve as proof of shipment (a.k.a. adequate proof of delivery).
posted on March 26, 2001 07:45:59 PM
Trouble is "Delivery Confirmation" does not always require the complete address to be fill in or that the address on the confirmation matches the address on the envelope/package. Try it next time and see how many postal employees check that the DC address matches the package. Especially, if you do a lot of mailing. Most simply scan the confirmation number and that's it.
So why would PayPal consider DC as adequate proof? Also, why the need for online tracking? "Proof of Mailing" is far more reliable than DC that the item is actually mailed to the address is suppose to go to. Postal employees will look at those much more closely.
Items that can't be tracked on-line, such as a postal receipt, can be modified. We need to be able to view the item quickly and on-line tracking gives us the ability to do so.
Delivery confirmation is used, because as mentioned, we are asking for adequate proof of shipment/delivery. It is not the only method of shipping/tracking and it is just an example.
However, it does meet part of the criteria for protection against charge backs.
On a different subject, I have a question regarding your PayPal bill process. I hate it as it looks like the buyer is paying you twice. I had to keep explaining to buyers that they did not pay me twice and one is only a billing transaction.
Anyway, I have a buyer who keeps asking me for a PayPal bill. I keep telling him to simply send the money and no need for bill. Can you explain to me if there is any advantage to a buyer if he is billed versus if he just sends me the money.
My concern is that the buyer is paying on behalf of a friend. His friend is in Russia and wants me to send item to the PayPal member. Everything seems a little weird. I am just wondering why this buyer insists on being bill before paying.
[ edited by laum1 on Mar 26, 2001 08:08 PM ]
posted on March 26, 2001 08:07:55 PM
Direct from the USPS website:
Confirm delivery with Delivery Confirmation. Our low cost Delivery Confirmation service gives you the date and ZIP Code, as well as the time your article was delivered. If delivery was attempted you will get the date and time of attempted delivery. You can easily access this information on our Track/Confirm web site. Delivery Confirmation service is available for Priority Mail, Package Services and Standard Mail parcels.
Now, unless someone knows of some other kind of delivery confirmation which cannot be tracked online, it appears ALL delivery confirmation can be tracked on-line & therefore meets the criteria set out by PayPal.
posted on March 26, 2001 09:45:12 PMpaypaldamon's the one declining to connect the dots, and wouldn't you agree, eventer, paypaldamon's connection (or decline to do so) is what matters?
posted on March 26, 2001 09:50:54 PM
No, I wouldn't agree.
USPS website
You can easily access this information on our Track/Confirm web site. Delivery Confirmation service is available for Priority Mail, Package Services and Standard Mail parcels.
DOT
paypaldamon
This would include: 1. Delivery Confirmation (provided by the USPS). This is just one of several items (I believe) that can be tracked on-line through the USPS.
posted on March 26, 2001 10:18:04 PM
Ok I am jumping back in the ring now after a short breather.
Damon, I have a related question. If I was to accept the fact that DC was proof of shipment etc, etc, then what do I have to do to prove the second part of the sellers protection rules as stated by you.
All shipping providers that provide a trackable number on-line will suffice as evidence for our the purposes of the Seller Protection Program (with the understanding that there are several components to the Seller Protection Program, including shipping the item to the confirmed address on file, not shipping internationally, and not accepting payments from multiple accounts for a single purchase).
What do I use to prove I shipped to the verified shipping address, thats all I want to know.
Thank You
Jim
sg52 I know exactly where you are coming from, no ifs, no buts, just yes/no.
Would you mind shooting me an email regarding that transaction? I am not saying it could not be legit, but I would like to take a look at it (it is a potential credit card fraud indicator and I don't see a reason for a request money email)
Hi dadofstickboy,
I will see if I can get my hands on it tomorrow (the actual steps), but I believe you set it in your account profile. You would also need to apply for the money market account and the debit card (there should be links on the account after you log in).
Hi sg52,
For argument's sake... I left it open that perhaps one carrier in the US may not offer a trackable, on-line confirmation method. If it can be shipped through a carrier, and a valid tracking number can be viewed on-line, then it stands as proof for the Seller Protection Program. I gave examples to assist and give the users leads (in addition to the carriers that I know for fact offer such a service), but I do not profess to be an expert in the shipping practices of all companies in the United States.
I would even be willing to breakdown the Seller Protection Program for the users if it would assist.
First of all, I think you should be commended for monitoring these boards and attempting to help people with their problems. It seems like you are a "the buck stops here" kind of person, and you seem to be very willing to help individuals when nothing else works.
I posted on this thread earlier, and I think the question I posed MIGHT help satisfy sg52's need for clarification.
You state that PayPal will accept DC as proof of shipment and/or delivery if it can be tracked online. The $64,000 question is what happens when the USPS messes up and it is not tracked correctly by their employees?. I'm sure all the sellers here could punch in a DC number and get "number not found" or find out that the website says the package went to Peoria when it was addressed to New York. If the USPS tracks a package incorrectly or doesn't track it at all, (i.e. if there is erroneous info on the USPS website) is the seller just out of luck???
Here's another important question: If the seller has the cash register receipt from the USPS, showing the DC number and the zip code is was to be mailed to (this can't be altered since it's machine-printed info), is this sufficient backup if the DC is not showing on the website or was tracked with wrong information???
If you would address these issues, I think the sellers here would have a better idea of how your policies apply in the "real world."
Thanks for the kind words. It can be tough at times (answering questions and trying to correct problems in a public forum), but it is actually very rewarding for the company to gather the feedback in the forums...and we do make changes as a result of user feedback.
As it relates to the case where the item wasn't scanned, I would imagine that the account review team would ask for what you have or ask for the correspondence between you and the seller. This is probably not a common item and you could probably get some documentation from the USPS to substantiate your proof.
The dc receipt should/would still provide a valid tracking number that can be tracked on-line (provided that the numbers were correct, it still should be entered into a database at some point)
Users seem to worry about---
Bring item to the post office.
Item is mailed from post office to another post office where it is not scanned.
The key item is that it is more than likely going to be scanned at one of these facilities and this is what allows tracking---if office a didn't scan it, office b probably would---the margin for error is probably not that large.It would provide proof that it was shipped, which is what we are asking for (in addition to the other items of the Seller Protection Program) to protect sellers from charge back liability.
It may seem like a hassle, but many users include the confirmation price in the price of the shipping and it could protect you (the seller) from charge back issues. The going rate is, unless I am mistaken, .40 for delivery confirmation, and this could potentially save much more down the road because charge backs are a fact of life when accepting credit card payments. (Say someone initiates a charge back on a 200.00 item and you shipped the item, but had no proof----You could have a liability of 200.00 when you could have had none for .40 and by following the rules of the Seller Protection Program).
Sorry for the format,and if this seems kind of hard to follow or wordy, but I am checking this from home.
In short, perhaps at long last for all involved on this thread, use this as a guide---
1.Tracking (regardless of vendor used)
2.On-line (because it is not modifiable--- Other issues would be handled on a case-by-case basis through the Seller Protection team, (such as non-scanned items))
=
Sufficient proof of shipment/delivery and no liability for the charge back (as long as the other parameters were followed)
posted on March 27, 2001 01:14:14 AM
Paypaldamon, I sure didn't expect you'd still be up at this hour of the morning! Maybe you need to get a life just as much as I do!!!
Hats off to you for sticking with this thread for so long, but I'm sure you've read other threads where sellers have opined that DC is worthless because they get tracked incorrectly so much, and the postman could throw the package in the river if he wanted to (as long as he scanned it first!). Since there seems to be very little "protection" with USPS DC's, I think some of the sellers who have posted here are anxious to know what protection they have if THEY do everything right but the USPS screws up.
sg52, does the above response from Damon help? I hope I was reading your mind correctly about your concerns!!
posted on March 27, 2001 02:51:30 AM
SIMPLE !!!! DO NOT USE PAYPAL!!! tHEY ARE JUST TO MUCH TROUBLE!! AND BUYERS ARE STARTING TO SEE THIS. WHEN ONE OF MY CUSTOMERS WANT TO PAY THREW PAYPAL, I TELL THEM THAT I DO NOT TAKE PAYPAL, AND EXPLAIN TO THEM ABOUT ALL OF THE PROBLEMS WITH THEM, AND THAT YOU DO NOT WANT TO GET CAUGHT UP IN THERE JUNK!! . AND THEY UNDERSTAND, IT HAS WORKED FOR ME, AND I HAVE PLEANTY OF BUYERS!!!
posted on March 27, 2001 04:14:10 AM
This thread is just more typical PayPal - i.e. mediocre customer care.
First, if you have Postal Insurance (and those little guys can be modified), you don't need PayPal's (lack of) protection. Your buyer says they didn't get it, you wait 30 days, and you file a claim w/the PO.
My concern is that Certificate of Mailing doesn't hold up w/PayPal - because it could be modified, and isn't trackable online. I get it - PayPal's stand is that its customers (in this case, the sellers who pay the fees) are out to defraud it. I bet that little sucker (Cert. of Mailing) would hold up in small claims court. And believe me, if I had a certificate of mailing and PayPal charged back my account saying I didn't have proof of shipping, I'd take their corporate butts to small claims court in a heartbeat.
Easier for me: Count me as one more person who will not offer my customers a PayPal option if my items are being mailed first class without insurance.
posted on March 27, 2001 04:44:57 AM
Has it occurred to anyone that if buyers were as uptight about purchases on eBay as much as some sellers are worried (obsessed) about chargebacks then eBay would be nothing more than a theory.
posted on March 27, 2001 06:11:49 AM
>>Has it occurred to anyone that if buyers were as uptight about purchases on eBay as much as some sellers are worried (obsessed) about chargebacks then eBay would be nothing more than a theory.<<
There's a reason why sellers are uptight about charge backs. Stupid credit card rules make it just too darned easy to do. It's not that easy to be a crooked seller. Except for stupid buyers who don't bother reading feedback, it's pretty easy to spot the crooked sellers and just not deal with them. Sellers who want to accept CC (before the payment services came along) had to be verified. In my case, the CC bank sent someone to my store to check me out, asked for financial statements, checked with my bank. Not something the average seller would go through in order to scam a couple of folks.
But where is the verification for buyers? Anyone (even a kid) can get a CC # and start placing orders. And anyone for any reason can charge anything back. I had three charge backs made for no reason at all. Fortunately, I won them all. But I have heard of cases where the sellers lost even though they proved that they shipped the merchandise to the proper billing address.
The problem is that the stupid CC rules were written to solve a small problem (the occasional crooked seller) and instead created a big one (the much more common crooked buyer). And this problem becomes even bigger when there is a payment service acting as the middle man.
Fortunately, a long overdue overhaul of the rules is slowly taking place.
posted on March 27, 2001 06:29:29 AM
This whole discussion is confusing because the real issue is not Paypal, it's the credit card rules.
If someone does a charge back claiming the item was never sent, this indicates that they agree that they did place the order. Then all you need is trackable proof of shipping, such as DC. If your DC was not scanned on delivery, you are out of luck. If the person continues to state they didn't get it, since the DC does not show an address, you are still out of luck. This is not a paypal issue, but a CC issue.
If someone does a charge back claiming that they did not order the item, then DC won't help at all.
The final decision will be made by the credit card company, not paypal. So while Paypal tries to pretend that they are giving protection, it is very rarely given. Most of the time, the charge back goes through and PP takes the money out of the seller's account regardless of what proof the seller has. I have seen countless posts and received dozens of emails (some from folks I know personally) about situations like these:
-buyer claims item not received. Seller is charged back with no notice from paypal. Seller sends PP copy of DC. PP says this is not good proof because it doesn't show buyer's signature
-seller receives notice about buyer's complaint and given 3 days to send proof. Seller responds immediately. PP never returns sellers calls or emails but charges back, claiming proof was not received in time.
-seller is charged back because seller was paid by someone who received a fraudulent payment from someone else
-buyer pays via bank account or pp balance (not credit card) and never receives merchandise. Buyer complains to PP. After months of being ignored and jerked around, PP tells buyer that they can't recover from seller, so too bad.
-buyer pays seller but seller's account was restricted due to other problem. Buyer's money is now used to reimburse PP for losses due to a different transaction.
To reiterate, the problem of charge backs is not a paypal problem. It is due to the stupid CC rules. However, using PP will make the problem worse because there are only so many problems Damon can deal with and the rest of the company seems to be asleep at the wheel. So let's stop bothering Damon with endless threads here and maybe he can solve a few real problems.
let me try my hand at explaining.
