Thats a nice touch. I can see where you are coming from, But they need to learn, So they might as well get their combat lesson now. It sounds hard but a neg might give them a wake up call.
posted on March 28, 2001 03:20:11 PM
Another thing to think about; suppose the buyer who didn't bid, but won the auction decides against paying after all and now the bidder who did win was told by the seller, at the time they had sold to someone else, they were now the winner and wanted their money? Even if the buyer has now bid on another auction of the same item. What retract stating I have to honor a previous bid? Who looks like the bad one then?
By letting it slide this buyer is asking for trouble.
Ain't Life Grand...
posted on March 28, 2001 03:42:06 PM
While I agree that the "stuff" we buy on eBay is only "stuff", sometimes that stuff can be more than just a widget we can find again easily. No, you can't get into a seller's head, but you also can't see inside a buyer's.
I have bought two items on ebay in the past two years that mean a great deal to me. They are truly rare/hard to find old toys. I paid top dollar for both of these items. If something of this type had happened to me on either of these items, I would have been more than peeved.
Of course I don't believe in being nasty and ugly when leaving a neg, no matter how peeved I happen to be. But technically this seller did break an eBay rule by selling an auction item "off" of eBay. The person who ended up with the item didn't use eBay to bid on said item. If the seller had been more on the ball, she would have ended the auction, and avoided the FVF. As it stands, since she isn't going to be paid by the "offical winning bidder" she could apply for credit on this sale as well.
The whole deal just plain smells bad to me. Yes, it might just be "stuff", but when you decide to sell, you agree to play by the rules, which this seller needs to become much more familiar with. Following through with a neg just may prompt her and save someone else a similar problem.
posted on March 28, 2001 03:52:58 PM
Meya...and emailing her in a friendly manner explaing how she broke the rules and how she could do it next time so she doesn't find herself in this same position would also serve to help her be a better seller, no?
If the end result is to help this seller be a better seller then an email such as I outlined will accomplish the same result as a negative without harming the seller.
But if the end result is to really have the aggrieved party (the buyer) "feel better", then a negative is probably the way to go.
posted on March 28, 2001 04:00:55 PM
The seller did indeed break the rules.
Selling Offenses
If you've experienced any of these selling misuses, please report offenses to the
Investigations link below. Disciplinary action may result in the indefinite suspension of a user's account,
temporary suspension, or a formal warning. eBay will consider the circumstances of an alleged offense and the
user's trading records before taking action.
Non-Selling Seller - Refusing payment and failing to deliver an item at the end of a successful listing.
............................................
posted on March 28, 2001 04:57:28 PM
None of us should be leaving negs in order to "feel better". It is part of the dance. I've left 8-10 negs out of my 350+ sales. I didn't do it to feel better. I have other ways to accomplish that, ways that have nothing to do with eBay.
posted on March 28, 2001 05:30:33 PM
My point was that if a seller calls something 'just stuff' and opines that a buyer should be laid back and not fuss about an object they haven't invested any money in, then there should be an equal acceptance when the shoe is on the other foot. For instance, it should be equally non-problematic for a seller who is selling an item he/she received for free to be laid back and philosophical when a buyer informs his/her seller at auctions' end: "I'm sorry, I made a mistake and forgot to retract my bid. I've already purchased this item elsewhere." No neg, no irritation---After all, it's just stuff, and you don't have any money invested in it. (Yes, there are non-refundable insertion fees and time spend to list----which generally speaking I would posit are roughly equal to the 'cost' and 'investment' of the time buyers spend looking at various auctions.)
If you are indeed equally philosophical about both types of occurances, then you are consistent, and while I don't agree with your philosophy at least I can see your method at work. However, if you advise the original poster to assume a level of detachment as a buyer that you do not practice as a seller, I would question the consistency of your own logic....
posted on March 28, 2001 07:16:04 PM
Why don't you invite the seller to this discussion, that way we can all have a look at the auction. Perhaps if they feel they have a very good case they can try and talk their way out on this board.
posted on March 28, 2001 07:51:48 PM
Brighid868...as I said earlier...yes, it is a philosophy I try to follow.
These types of irritants (like the one described here or deadbeat bidders or someone refusing to honor a bid) are few and far between...there is no reason to get uptight over them IMO.
But I think you have somewhat misunderstood me. I know there is no way to be completely detached and not feel even a pang of irritation...that's why I said to "say a few choice words to the computer screen".
I just think these kind of things are not worth the stress or irritation.
Stay cool and stick to the facts. The seller was obligated to sell the item to you. The seller refused to sell it to you. This is not only an Ebay offense that may get the seller permanently kick off of ebay. It is fraud and against the law.
First I would pull the seller's user info and then do the following:
I would write an email to the seller that states,
"As outlined under ebay's policy the seller is obligated to complete the transaction. Not only is this against ebay's rules, it is considered fraud. Unless I receive confirmation within 72 hours that the item has been shipped to me, a fraud report will be filed with Ebay and the "Internet Fraud Complaint Center," which is operated in part by the FBI. The IFCC works with local law inforcement agencies concerning fraud over the internet. Failure to complete this transaction may result in civil or criminal charges, and possible fines and or jail time.
The IFCC web site is at http://www.ifccfbi.gov
You have 72 hours to submit proof of delivery. After this time I will file the fraud report and forward all of the emails that I have received from you, with a copy being sent to ebay's safeharbor. Your emails clearly indicate your intentions of not honoring the contract established between a buyer and seller on ebay."
I always add the website addy so they know I am serious. Once I bought $15.00 worth of items from a seller who was then narued. They ignored me until I wrote this. I got my merchandise.
Stay cool and stick to the facts. The seller was obligated to sell the item to you. The seller refused to sell it to you. This is not only an Ebay offense that may get the seller permanently kick off of ebay. It is fraud and against the law.
First I would pull the seller's user info and then do the following:
I would write an email to the seller that states,
"As outlined under ebay's policy the seller is obligated to complete the transaction. Not only is this against ebay's rules, it is considered fraud. Unless I receive confirmation within 72 hours that the item has been shipped to me, a fraud report will be filed with Ebay and the "Internet Fraud Complaint Center," which is operated in part by the FBI. The IFCC works with local law inforcement agencies concerning fraud over the internet. Failure to complete this transaction may result in civil or criminal charges, and possible fines and or jail time.
The IFCC web site is at http://www.ifccfbi.gov
You have 72 hours to submit proof of delivery. After this time I will file the fraud report and forward all of the emails that I have received from you, with a copy being sent to ebay's safeharbor. Your emails clearly indicate your intentions of not honoring the contract established between a buyer and seller on ebay."
I always add the website addy so they know I am serious. Once I bought $15.00 worth of items from a seller who was then narued. They ignored me until I wrote this. I got my merchandise.
posted on March 29, 2001 04:31:25 AM
<If the end result is to help this seller be a better seller then an email such as I outlined will accomplish the same result as a negative without harming the seller.>>
Amy
While I agree with letting things go, it sounds like this bidder told this seller that her actions were wrong and it doesnt sound like the seller cares. I would neg her because it would make me feel better to know that I might save another bidder from going through this. I think too many people on eBay "let things go", they may neg a deadbeat bidder but they don't file for FVF because they think that it is not worth it. This is why we sometimes find bidders still registered with a negative feeback profile. I think the bidder should neg, email safeharbor and then "let it go". Amy, I really admire that you are so laidback, patient and easygoing(I wish I could be) but there is a limit esp. a in a situation like this.
What you say is true, however, in my case, payment was not even made. She would not accept payment from me. She just refused to sell. Yes, it was against Ebay rules, but I don't think it falls under fraud.
Everyone, thanks for your comments. I did leave her a negative. A simple :"Will not honor BIN, Seller sold item to non-bidder will not complete transaction"
She has a few other items up now (different than what I wanted), but all are BIN purchases. Now, the next person to look at her auctions can make their own judgement call as to whether or not they want to bid.
If everyone "let it slide" she could do this over and over. I have no way of knowing via her feedback if it was the first time, or the tenth.
It's now over as far as I am concerned. I'm disappointed, yes, but not angry. I'm glad I reported her, and I'm glad I left a negative. The situation warranted it.
posted on March 29, 2001 05:54:53 AM
Let it go? without negging the seller? Heck no.
The seller didn't just break a tiny little rule. I mean come on, this is what Ebay is all about. You see an item you like, bid on it, auction closes, you win the bid, you send the money, you get the item. That is the main fiber of how a auction operates, BIDDING. This isn't PhoneBay where the first buyer who calls a seller and sends me the money right away is the winner. There is a reason for the feedback system. Its about how smooth the transaction went between the seller and WINNING bidder. Well, there was no transaction, violating the binding contract. The seller deserves the neg.
Even if the seller's new and if you e-mail nicely about the mistake she have made, she maybe (which I doubt) didn't realize that it was against the rules and thank you for letting her know, or in one ear out the other and might do it again because the NON-bidder wants to pay more and pay right away.
At least with the neg it might stop the temptation on selling to a non-bidder. Does any of you sellers forget that your auctions still going on when your talking to a possible bidder? Thats a poor excuse.
posted on March 29, 2001 08:47:14 AM
Kellyb1...Fraud? Gadzooks, since when is breaking a simple contract when no money has changed hands considered a criminal offense? So, do you also file fraud charges against deadbeat bidders? They also broke a contract. By your reasoning they have also commited fraud.
Yes, your letter/email may force a reluctant seller to complete the contract but not because your threat has any validity...it would only work if the seller didn't know any better and felt intimidated.
Save the fraud charges for real fraud, not minor things like a simple broken sales agreement. Plus, filing such frivolous claims slows down the authorities from acting on REAL fraud.
posted on March 29, 2001 12:46:52 PM
I do not understand why someone would just let anyone do anything and "it is ok" It is NOT ok. Granted it not a Major law breaker, but it is still wrong. The Seller was WRONG! People think they should be able to get away with anything and others think it is ok to let them. People need to stand up and take the punishment if they break the rules. When you let someone get away with breaking a small rule, then you are opening the door for them to break bigger rules and say "well why is this one not ok to break this rule You let me slide on the other one". You will always have someone saying "leave them alone" and that is why we have all the troubles we have today. No one wants to stand up and be counted when they are to blame for something. I think the seller should get a Neg. Maybe next time they will think twice before doing it again, but then you will have to same peope saying you are "Mean" for making some one do what is right and follow the rules.
[ edited by Drivingmetodrink on Mar 29, 2001 12:48 PM ]
posted on March 29, 2001 01:52:33 PM
So much for an "honest mistake" by this seller. If she were honest, she would not have retaliated with a negative feedback, which she has.
If she were honest, she would have simply responded to the feedback I left her, and left mine alone.
Not that it bothers me. I can start over with another ID if need be. I don't regret giving her a negative for a minute.
posted on March 30, 2001 07:18:13 AM
That seller deserved a negative.
Someone I have dealt with in the past just recently "won" an auction and the seller rated him negative like 3 or 4 hours after the auction was over saying it was because he said he didn't like Canada. What kind of reason is that not to honor a bid??? lmao
[ edited by redskinfan on Mar 30, 2001 07:35 AM ]
[ edited by redskinfan on Mar 30, 2001 07:37 AM ]
posted on March 30, 2001 07:34:20 AM
no, the seller lived in Canada. She didn't say Canada only. This guy now has a -1 rating (this was his first transaction on ebay)and is gonna have to make a new name and start over.
posted on March 30, 2001 07:46:42 AM
My opinion lies somewhere in between Amy's and everyone else's. For me, it would depend on the seller's attitude. If she seemed genuinely sorry about her mistake, acknowledged the awkward predicament she was in, and asked/thanked you for your understanding, I would be more inclined to let it go. She probably should have made a different decision, but the scenario Amy outlined is plausible. You are talking about such a short time in between when the item became unavailable and when you bid.
However, the scenario that there really is no other buyer is plausible also. If the seller doesn't seem concerned or apologetic enough, then I would feel angrier, and be more likely to neg. Sounds like she may have been attempting to sell the item outside Ebay(fee avoidance).
I accidentally listed an item once before I realized I was out of stock. When I realized it, I high-tailed it over to Ebay to cancel the auction. I got lucky that no one had bid, but I was very prepared to kiss some butt in apologies for my mistake. You definitely get more understanding from people when you are nice, understanding, admit your error, and empathize with the inconvenience the other person went through.
posted on March 30, 2001 08:52:00 AM
I DID report her to safeharbor, and she has been warned.
I realize it was a short time period, but understand that time was short to begin with. It sold within 3 hours.
She WAS apologetic, but that does not excuse what she did, or her retaliation in giving me a negative. SHE was the one in the wrong, and other people certainly have the right to make an informed decision.
She also lied in her response to my feedback, saying I KNEW the item was sold via e-mail but bid on it anyway. Not true. She did not e-mail me it was sold until 40 minutes after the auction ended. Some honest person.
Here is the timeline:
2:03 PST the item is listed.
4:52 PST I send the "ask the seller a question" through Ebay.
5:05 PST I get a respose to my e-mail, with 4 pics of the item, and requesting my zip code to get a shipping estimate. No indication in this letter there is another buyer interested.
5:37 PST I send an e-mail that I did the BIN, and to send her information.
5:42 PST Official time the auction ended with me as the BIN bidder.
6:11 PST I get an e-mail that the item was sold via BIN. I was not on the computer at the time.
6:37 PST She sends an e-mail that she cannot honor my bid, as the item was sold to someone else.
7:48 PST I return her 6:11 PST mail telling her I was the BIN bidder, and to send her info.
7:49PST I respond to her second e-mail that she will not honor my bid.
8:24 PST she again tells me she will not honor the bid and that the other person contacted her half an hour before my first e-mail that she was interested. (If this buyer was interested, then WHY did she even respond to my inquiry?) She also told me that the other person paid via paypal at 6:22 PST and THEN went back to do BIN. Whether or not this is true, I have no idea.
There were other mails after that, including one at 8:55 PST (I was off the computer by then), asking how I planned to pay for the item if she refunded the other person.
The next a.m. she said she was staying with her original stance, and shipped the item to the non-bidder.
Yes, the time period WAS short, but it is not as if the item sat there for days.
I'll find another item, perhaps not at such a great deal, but it will be out there.
posted on March 30, 2001 09:14:04 AMkidsfeet: I'm sure sorry that she negged you. That just further verifies her lack of integrity in my opinion!
I still stand on my opinion that she didn't just "accidentally" sell it to someone else. She was playing a game, perhaps to see who was going to offer more and then gave you some bogus story because, I must assume, the other person offered more. She probably played her against you and told the other "buyer" that she had someone who was going to offer her the BIN price (you), so the other person offered her more to make the sale offline.
Sorry you got screwed twice. I'm hoping that this will come back to bite her in the butt real soon!
posted on March 30, 2001 09:18:47 AM
Sharkbaby ........ I agree 100%. This seller knew exactly what she was doing from the minute Kidsfeet initial email arrived asking questions about this item. The seller even went so far as to send additional pics.
I hope they kick her sorry azz off eBay, because sellers like this give us all a bad name.
Just imagine if Kidsfeet had been new to eBay & this had been her first purchase.
posted on March 30, 2001 09:21:56 AM
Kidsfeet...did you do a typo or did you too tell the seller you had purchased the item BEFORE you actually put the bid in.
If what you gave as the time line is accurate, then you told the seller you had made a BIN bid and asked her for the information 5 minutes BEFORE you actually bid.
What would you have done if someone else had actually ended the auction by BINing at 5:40 PST...after all, you had already told the seller you were the buyer even though you didn't actually try to place the bid until 5:42 PST?
PS...maybe you should reconsider your "ME" page. Ebay can get touchy about using the ME page to "expand" on bad transactions. Since you didn't mention the other person by name it may pass muster and ebay would let it stand. But safe harbor employees have been known to make decisions that are "questionable". I would hate to see you in ebay hot water because of your me page.
[ edited by amy on Mar 30, 2001 09:54 AM ]
posted on March 30, 2001 09:58:08 AM
No, Amy. I sent her the e-mail immediately upon my completing the BIN. I was giving you the time date on my computer, which is not synchronized with Ebay. No too many people I know are synchronized to the minute with Ebay.
I hit BIN, completed the BIN and sent her the e-mail.
And, Amy There is nothing wrong with My Ebay page. I simply stated the facts of what occurred. I did not say anything bad about the seller, I just simply stated the facts, and explained WHY I had a negative. I did it because eventually that neg will fall off the front page, and no one will search for it to see my response to it.
With only 4 current feedback (10 pos), a negative can be looked upon poorly by sellers.
