posted on April 24, 2001 09:27:20 PM new
I listed a higher price item for me($50) and it was won by a Canadian bidder, I'm also in Canada. My auction and EOA email states very clearly payment is due within 10 days. After 12 days no payment had arrived so I emailed the buyer and asked if and when payment had been sent, I recieved a short reply the next day:
'Pmt is on way, sorry for delay, was away over easter & got a bit behind.
Thanks'
I was a little upset as I had asked for a date when payment was sent and I've had a huge amount of non paying or very late paying bidders recently, so I emailed back right away asking very politely could they please tell me when payment was sent. I checked that evening, no reply, so I emailed again explaining I would have to relist if I didn't get a reply. The next day still no reply so I emailed again, this time stating if I didn't recieve an email with payment date before 6pm EST I would relist that evening, which is what I did at around 8pm EST, now 14 days since close of auction.
The thing is now the bidder has contacted me the following day(day 15) saying they only got home on Sunday evening and are upset that I relisted and think I should cancel the auction and all the bids it now has and let them have it still as it was theirs first. Personally I think my terms of sale were clear, 10 days to recieve payment especially when both bidder and seller are in Canada I think is more than a fair amount of time to expect payment recieved and its now day 16 and still nothing arrived. In fact the bidder admits she didn't send payment until last Friday, 12 days after auctions end.
Am I being unreasonable by sticking to my guns and allowing the relist to run. I told her if she really wants the item she is welcome to bid again, she says she shouldn't have to as it already is hers.
posted on April 24, 2001 09:46:57 PM new
Your TOS were clear. For a buyer to wait 12 days to even BEGIN to send payment, and to do that only after many reminders, shows she did not give this matter much priority. Neither you nor your auction were as important as her holiday plans and other real life concerns. You gave her ample warning. That she chose not to check her e-mail for days on end is not your problem.
NOW she expects you to give her preference over your new bidders? I don't think so. Personally, I'd block her from bidding on any more of my auctions, but that's just me. And be sure to file for your FVF credit.
That's my view of it. Others will differ, I'm sure. That's good because you will see more than 1 side of the issue.
posted on April 24, 2001 09:57:42 PM new
yes, you did give her notice and that was the kindest way to do it, but in my opinion you moved too fast. i'm a seller too and i know it can be a pain to wait for the money when you need it but since she said she already sent it, it seems somewhat silly to re-list just because she wouldn't give you a date (and if she was truly out of town how could she have?) After all, now you will have to wait even LONGER for the money from the new auction. Wouldn't it be easier all the way around to just wait for her check to arrive within a few days?
All of this is based on the unknown variable of whether or not the buyer is telling the truth. I have no idea if she is or not. But I personally would have waited at least a few days longer to see if she had actually mailed it.
posted on April 24, 2001 09:59:44 PM new
Agreed, the buyer was slow in getting her payment out, but you only gave her a few hours...
"The next day still no reply so I emailed again, this time stating if I didn't recieve an email with payment date before 6pm EST I would relist that evening"
to respond before you would relist the item. I don't think it is reasonable to expect that someone would be assured of getting your message in that time frame. Not everybody checks their email several times a day.
posted on April 24, 2001 10:18:20 PM new
I feel like the Lone Ranger here (Sharkbaby is Tonto, I guess), but my point is that the buyer knew 2 weeks ago that she won the auction. Even assuming she didn't read the TOS stating payment is expected within 10 days, she should have assumed that payment needed to be mailed shortly after the end of the auction. For her to lally-gag around and then get upset when the seller sticks with her TOS is uncool in my opinion.
Mine is a vote for buyers to take responsibility for their winning bids and fork over the dough without having to be cajoled.
Yes, I know I'm naive. I'm also a hypocrite....I wait 2 weeks before begging for my money though my TOS says 10 days....if they tell me they are sick/grandmother died/dog has fleas...I send flowers. Okay, the last part's a lie, but I believe all the stories I'm told! But, I'm going to toughen up one day....soon.
posted on April 24, 2001 10:30:02 PM new...when the seller sticks with her TOS
But the seller didn't stick with her TOS. After 12 days, the seller was emailing the buyer, apparently meaning to complete the transaction, even though it had been more than 10 days since the end of the auction, and payment had not been received.
I agree that the buyer was acting less than responsibly by not paying as requested in the auction listing, but expecting an email response from the buyer (at a point in time when the seller is still willing to complete the transaction) within a few (8? 10?) hours is not reasonable.
posted on April 24, 2001 10:42:24 PM new
Oh, and just for the record, I personally think that any seller that insists that payment is due within 10 days, is living in la-la land.
posted on April 24, 2001 10:50:28 PM new
Are you being unreasonable?
Depends.
Is the reason for being in business to make money or to reform all those "irresponsible bidders"?
If it is more important to make sure others "take responsibility" then you were not unreasonable.
But if your doing this to make money, then
IMO yes your are being unreasonable. You were to quick to relist, to quick to cancel the deal. You are forgetting that the buyers have a life beyond their ebay purchases.
SLOOOWW DOWN, ease up, remember the object is to make a sale not "teach" someone something.
Also remember its often easier to reel in the fish you have on the hook than to let this one go and try to catch another.
posted on April 24, 2001 11:51:54 PM new
I am the kind of bidder who won't bid if I don't have the wherewithal to get my payment out the door within three days.
OTOH I am learning that people I sell to are not quite as responsible.
I try to work with people, but I realize that the more they say they will pay the less they do. And also that no matter how long I let them stretch they aren't interested in paying inasmuch as letting me know payment is coming.
I don't think it's unreasonable to set timelines for payments.
The only think I am learning is don't expect anything to happen on a weekend, because if you plan something for sunday night, the person won't get back to you until monday afternoon. And I follow all non paying bidder steps.
But I am loath to neg, so I take Morgantown's approach. Loath as I am to do so, I can't take Jay's approach to negs, even the most hardened seller must realize that a neg for a seller like me would slow sales down and drive prices down to a degree that would turn a paying hobby into a costly hassle.
Anyhow. I try to imagine that people are good at heart and want to do the right thing, but then they drag you along and then they vanish. And you relist and move on.
Oh pooh.
posted on April 25, 2001 05:52:48 AM new
Most of my buyers pay within 1 - 2 weeks. When they don't, I send a second notice. Then, most of the time I get payment within the week, which means that it took sometime between 2 - 3 weeks for those few people to make payments.
Sure, that's about twice the time frame of the 10 days you want, but it's a paid-for-done-deal with no NPBA, no relist hassles, no wondering if the item will sell a second time and hoping the second winner isn't going to give the run-around on payment, too.
Don't be in such a hurry. You only create more hassles for yourself.
posted on April 25, 2001 06:07:29 AM new
My first email enquiring when payment was sent was on Friday. I was very polite but very clear that I wanted to know WHEN payment was sent.
"so would really appreciate if you could let me know if you sent payment yet and when."
The reply I got seemed very blunt and didn't give that information and led me to believe that payment wasn't even in the mail yet, which in that case I wanted to relist, as I said I've had too many non paying, very late paying bidders and even more excuses.
I emailed her back as soon as her message came, explaining I only hold items for 14 days and that I'm sure if I mailed a buyers item to them weeks after recieving their money it would upset them. I had checked at this point her bidding and selling history and she had done both after winning my item, I also found out that she was in Canada and although on checking her feedback most was positive, over 80 she had two negs and other complaints for slowness.
I didn't relist after 8 hours, from my intial email it had been almost 3 days and in each of the 4 emails I explained about holding the item for 14 days and relisting.
In my mind she had ample time to send payment and it hadn't arrived, I don't know this person so the fact I recieved the initial reply gave me little hope as to whether payment had in fact been sent at all. I've had many buyers recently reply with, the checks in the mail but it never arrives, which is why I now ask for a date.
As for me not sticking to my TOS, I was sticking to it, I was emailing to ask if payment had been sent, I understand the mail can sometimes be slow and initially I thought the lady was in the US, I always allow more time for US buyers IF payment was sent. However this lady until reading my first email HAD NOT even SENT payment and only did so it now seems after I emailed her the first time, hence the reason she was unwilling to give me a date at the time, had I known that I would have told her not to send it and I would relist, as it stands now I still don't even know if payment was sent then, I only have her word to take for it.
I suppose in this instance I was a lot tougher than I would normally be, but I just got so sick of being told, payments on its way and waiting weeks and nothing ever arriving.
posted on April 25, 2001 06:24:28 AM new
There does seem to be an epidemic of slow paying bidders out there. I've got one that I've been working with for a month now, getting the same old story (check is in the mail, then check suddenly becomes a money order). I finally filed NPB on her (she won 3 of my auctions) and now she's promised that payment went out Saturday by Priority Mail. Bidders need to start taking responsibility for their actions. If they don't have the money to pay for something, then they should not bid! Usually when you start asking for specifics like what date was payment mailed, was it check or money order, if it was check what was the number they start doing the old backstroke and you can just know that payment hasn't even been sent yet. I'm willing to work with buyers, but they also need to work with their sellers! Maybe we need to start charging layaway fees for these people who want to bid and then get their item months later! I think I would have worked with this particular bidder on this thread a little longer before filing NPB and relisting, but at some point it becomes very obvious that they have no intentions of paying. I even had a NPB a couple of months ago that I sent an invoice by snail mail and she still didn't pay!
posted on April 25, 2001 06:26:21 AM new
So what you're really meaning is that you think I should end the auction and let her have the item still.
As payment still hasn't arrived, maybe I should let the auction run until payment does arrive before I consider doing that?
I'm just so sick of being burned with NPB. I remember when I first came to the boards, the percentages of NPB was very low, below 5%, now it seems I get them all, my rate of NPB for March/April has been about 30-40% and on one set of auctions it was over 50% in one week and its driving me nuts.
I suppose this was my way of saying enough is enough.
posted on April 25, 2001 06:29:38 AM new
paintpower,
One thing you could consider doing is once you file the NPB, then tell them if they are still interested, they have to use PayPal or BillPoint..that a check or money order option is no longer available (assuming you take PP or BP).
posted on April 25, 2001 06:34:16 AM new
Unfortunately I can't use PP or BP as I use Amex and neither one accept it. I am considering using a bank account to use PayPal but I'm moving house next week and was going to wait until after that time before pursuing that.
posted on April 25, 2001 06:48:41 AM new
When I first started selling a year ago, I followed the example of many other sellers whose auctions I'd looked at, and expected payment within 10 days also. I had that in my TOS on the auction page as well.
Seems to me that my rate of NPB's was extraordinarily high at that time as well.
When I took that time limit out of my TOS (don't list one at all now) and relaxed a little bit, my NPB ratio went way down.
As I already said, most people pay within the first 2 weeks. So what if payment arrives on the 11th or 14th day instead of 10? To me, it's not a big deal.
And if they need a nudge after 2 weeks, it takes a couple of seconds to send a second notice. That usually brings the payment in within a week.
I think it's much easier to send out those second notices than do the NPBA thing and have to wait another 10 days to file for the FVF.
A NPB rate of 30-50% seems ridiculously high to me. It's probably related to the strictness of your terms and your haste in determining the deals to have fallen through.
Also, in your first post you state the auction was won by a Canadian bidder. Then in a post further down the page, you state you "thought the lady was in the US". Since shipping charges would be different for both countries, seems to me this is a fact you can't afford to get confused over.
And it's interesting that this appears to be yet another case of someone appearing to ask for advice, then when the advice given is contrary to what the poster really wants to do, (which is continue to let the relisted auction run and tell the first winner to take a hike), then the poster starts getting all defensive and tries to reinforce how it's the first winner who is totally to blame for the situation.
posted on April 25, 2001 07:19:10 AM new
I did not get defensive, I came here for others opinions and thats what I recieved. I simply stated answers to questions and gave further explanation. In fact I thought that the general opinion was to end the other auction and sell to this lady anyway and asked if maybe I should wait and see if her payment arrives first? What exactly is defensive about that? I have found the opinions here very helpful, I would find it also helpful if one did not assume in a negative light how I feel about the other peoples advice and opinions.
I quote a fixed shipping rate in my auctions for CDN and US bidders, therefore I have no confusion. I thought this lady was from the US as generally all buyers I have had in Canada have sent payment usually in less than a week and also when I sent out my EOA email requesting shipping information, it was not replied to. It wasn't until I did some checking that I found out the lady was in Canada.
As for my TOS it is not strict, but very much in line with most TOS that I see.
As I have tried to explain, normally I am more easy going but as my rate of NPB and VERY late paying bidders had increased so significantly in the past month, I had got upset about this and decided, it seems now wrongly, to enforce my TOS a little more firmly.
posted on April 25, 2001 07:28:48 AM new
Well, the thing is, it became obvious after almost two weeks that the "buyer" had never actually sent the payment and, in my opinion, was stringing the seller along. Should the buyer been honest and specific perhaps the seller could have made a decision based upon the reality of the situation. The way it was, the seller had to second guess the situation and make a decision based upon appearances.
posted on April 25, 2001 07:34:08 AM new
I also list in my auction that payment should be received with-in 10 days.
That is just so they feel there is a limited
amount of time to send payment, where some people do sent payment within that time and others don't.
I always wait even if it takes longer for payment to come I am never in a hurry to relist an item, 9 out of 10 people finally
do send payment.
I also have bidders who say payment is in the mail, we'll I wait for another 5 days, no payment. I send an email for an update and I hear another story why payment has not arrived. This is something that you need to display patience over.
I feel I am very layed back over payment.
I see that most sellers want everyone to follow there rules. That's good if you can get the buyers to do that.
The only time I file for a NPB is when they never ans. my EOA email, I do this on the 10th day. After that I wait and by the end of the month if there still is no payment I Neg. them.
Also, so many people including me have been
having Email problems so I think a little extra time should be allowed.
I also think you acted too quickly about relisting your item, you could always relist. Right now since you relisted it I will just leave it alone and when the check comes, if it does send it back because, you do have the right to send it back since she didn't follow your rules.....she is in the woung for not communicating with you.
posted on April 25, 2001 07:45:02 AM new
Sharkbaby, that is exactly how I felt, but after reading some other posts I feel that maybe I did relist too quickly, probably because of my feelings as regards to the lousy month I have had with NPB.
I'm at a mind to end the auction if her payment does arrive and let her have it as she has asked me to, the auction has a reserve and although there have been numerous bids, the reserve has not yet been met, so as it stands none of the bidders would actually lose out.
I'm going to think about it over the rest of the day and keep reading here to continue to get others opinions and then make my decision some time later today.
posted on April 25, 2001 08:08:38 AM new
The buyer is wrong for not abiding by your TOS, that much is true. And it was obvious, at least to me, from the reply you received that payment hadn't been sent out yet. Your email did the trick in getting payment sent, but the buyer didn't answer your other emails because:
1. It was a holiday weekend
2. Or the buyer didn't want to admit payment wasn't sent until the reminder email came.
It was my experience that by stating a time limit in my TOS, it actually seemed to encourage people to not write out the check or whatever until the 10th day. (Yes, I've checked the postmarks, so I know.) Naturally, I wouldn't have received the money the same day, and if I followed a strict policy of cancelling the sales on the 11th or 12th day, then my NPB ratio would have been sky high as well. Also, I would have been receiving payments left and right for auctions I'd already relisted, putting me in pretty much the same situation you're in right now.
I've had buyers admit they just plain forgot and will take care of it right away. They generally do.
posted on April 25, 2001 08:30:46 AM new
Louissa...maybe its time to rethink your TOS. Just because many sellers have a 10 day time limit for payment doesn't mean it is the best way to do it.
You say you normally have a 5% no pay rate. IMO even that is WAY to much. I sell about 300 items a month and if I had 5% no pay (15 people) I would begin to wonder what I was doing wrong.
Like BJ, I find almost all my customers pay within 3 weeks. I send a gentle reminder at 14 days and then I wait another two weeks. After that I send ebays NPB alert. Most pay soon after my reminder, a few more after the NPB. I have about 1 deadbeat every couple of months.
The reason for my low deadbeat ratio may be the items I sell...or rather, the items I don't sell...I'm not sure. But I tend to think it has more to do with the fact that I have never set out a time limit in my TOS, nor have I ever emailed a customer giving them a deadline to answer me or get their payment in.
I think part of the problem in this transaction is that you set up secondary "hoops" the buyer needed to jump through...ie, she had to give you the date she sent payment. And then you became righteous because she didn't comply.
I would estimate that 95% of the time when a customer says "the check has been mailed" it really hasn't but they will be sending it within the next few days once you reminded them. They are saving face, a very understandable reaction. It doesn't hurt us sellers to let them save face...in fact, if we play along we will probaly be rewarded with the results we were looking for which is payment for our item.
Yes, buyers should be responsible but worrying about it or getting ourselves upset because they are not responsible doesn't do us any good. We can't change others behavior so we might as well realize this is going to happen and proceed accordingly. If we get hard nosed about buyers "have to be responsible" the only one it will really hurt is us...we won't get that sale.
In regards to your current situation I think you should go ahead and let the current auction run, especially since the reserve has not been met. Since your buyer said she sent payment last Friday (the 20th) you might be recieving it soon. If you do then cancel the auction and send her the item...along with an apology for the "mess" the whole situation became.
I agree with what you did. I did the same thing, only I waited 30 days (why, I don't know). My only advice to you is, when you recieve a payment on the item, double check the address.
After I cancelled the auction, I resubmitted it, just as you did. I received the FIRST bidders payment 10 days AFTER I told her the deal was cancelled, and 5 days after the second auction had closed, with a winner. Neither one had sent me their address, so, I mailed the item, assuming it was to the correct person. All that was in the envelope was a note saying This is payment for the widget.
As an aside, the second winner was a deadbeat, so no issues to deal with there!
posted on April 26, 2001 08:52:55 AM new
I can't believe how stupid I am, I emailed her first thing this morning with an offer to end the other auction early if her payment arrived by tomorrow, 19 days after auction.
I should have trusted my gut instinct, her payment arrived this afternoon and upon opening it I was absolutely furious. Not only did she send a check (I don't accept checks and make it very clear on my auctions and EOA emails) but she had chose to convert the amount herself from US to CDN dollars, and it worked out to be over $18 short!
I am so mad right now, I was actually beginning to feel bad about relisting so soon. However it now seems not only did she send payment on day 12(2 days after it was due) but she seemingly either didn't read any of my TOS or EOA email or didn't care to follow it at all!
Consequently I have withdrawn my offer to her with a full but polite explanation.
