daleeric
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posted on May 11, 2001 10:34:19 AM new
We shipped a knock down armoire by a blanket-wrap delivery service. The husband was home and refused to accept or sign for the item. The blanket-wrap company could not deliver the armoire. The first words out of his mouth were that the delivery team was Hispanic and he didn't not want them experimenting on the armoire upon set up or damage it!
We help customers with shipping and bend over backwards for them but can not tolerate racism. How can you judge what a person is capable of by the color of their skin?
We may have another buyer for the armoire. My question for you sellers out there is: did I meet my obligation as a seller? Do I have any further obligation to sell to these people under E-Bay Rules? What would you do?
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reddeer
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posted on May 11, 2001 11:23:31 AM new
IMO - sell it to someone else, this buyer is an azzhole.
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camachinist
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posted on May 11, 2001 11:26:15 AM new
Was the wife the winning bidder? If so, courtesy would obligate you to give her a call and verify that they indeed do not want the armoire...if so, ask why...
I'll assume it is paid in full...
If they do not want it and you made no material misrepresentation, I would refund the purchase price of the item, less the delivery and auction fees. Then I would leave appropriate feedback and re-list...
Good luck!
Pat
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daleeric
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posted on May 11, 2001 11:48:59 AM new
After we spoke to the wife she said that she does want the armoire. However, she wants us to pay for set up out of our pocket because they did not feel that the delivery people were capable of it. I could instruct the client how to do it by phone, so professional set up is not necessary.
The cost for a woodworker to set up would be about $80 an hour. This is the newest development in the saga.
Should I find out if the KKK has a blanketwrap delivery service to accomodate these people?(Sarcasm)
I am afraid they insulted our delivery service and we wish to continue our business relationship. I gave my apology to the delivery team and let them know I do not share my client's views.
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ashlandtrader
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posted on May 11, 2001 11:49:42 AM new
I agree with Pat and would add that in this circumstance I would even add a small restocking fee. You did everything correctly and there is no need for you to completely lose out considering you have put time into this sale too.
Good luck-- I hope the wife is at least apologetic. Husband sounds like a real winner.
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kidsfeet
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posted on May 11, 2001 11:53:17 AM new
You do NOT owe them "professional" set up at your expense. You do NOT owe them another delivery at your expense. If they still want the item, it needs to be PICK UP only, with their carrier of choice.
If they do not want that, refund their purchase price, minus shipping, since they refused delivery.
What idiots. Had your crew messed up the Armiore, they would have a legit beef. But not even allowing delivery. Geez.
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ashlandtrader
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posted on May 11, 2001 11:55:01 AM new
Whoops-- I answered just as you gave the followup.
Do not pay additonal money for setup. Tell them you send professional people and they refused the service. Their fault NOT yours. Tell them you WILL walk them through how to do it themselves. Sounds like you are doing everything you can to help them and they will have to meet you halfway now.
:0)
Good luck.
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abacaxi
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posted on May 11, 2001 12:16:42 PM new
"The husband was home and refused to accept or sign for the item." .... "she wants us to pay for set up out of our pocket because they did not feel that the delivery people were capable of it."
OK ... they tried to deliver and the customer's household prevented it out of idiocy. And now the buyer wants you to pay for their racist assumption that a Hispanic delivery crew is incapable of setting up furniture.
Let the buyer know that they will have to pay for a second delivery attempt and accept the setup service that comes with the delivery OR arrange and pay for setup with the installer of their color preference.
EDITED TO ADD:
Or sell it to someone more reasonable and send a refund (minus shipping and listing fees).
[ edited by abacaxi on May 11, 2001 12:18 PM ]
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buddhafinder
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posted on May 11, 2001 12:55:16 PM new
I agree with most everything said but the restocking fee. I think you should only charge that if you stated restocking fees in your terms of sale.
I would tell them to pay for 2nd delivery or make their own arrangements. I would also give them a short deadline - 48 hours or so. Then, refund minus shipping and listing fees. Also, if this isn't in writing (their views, etc.), write to them and document what transpired. Very simple and factual, but what they told you, etc. in case they come after you for more refund than you are willing to offer.
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harmonygrove
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posted on May 11, 2001 01:46:15 PM new
Hi Daleeric!
This is really somewhat off the topic, but what delivery service did you use? We list at least one armoire every week and we are always looking for a service that is less expensive than our current Craters & Freighters. We are not at all prejudiced and don't care if little green men bring the armoire in their spaceship. Just as long as it gets where its supposed to go with no damage and in a normal (1-2 week) delivery period.
If you don't want to reveal it here, you can email us at [email protected]
Good luck with your "Archie Bunker" bidder!
HarmonyGroveAntiques
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harmonygrove
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posted on May 11, 2001 01:48:56 PM new
Oh, forgot to mention...$80 an hour to set-up a knockdown armoire? We'll do it for you!!! We do them all the time! LOL
HarmonyGroveAntiques
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MrsSantaClaus
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posted on May 11, 2001 03:40:44 PM new
AshlandTrader
I think you mispelled a word. You meant WEINER, not WINNER, right?
LOL
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dubyasdaman
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posted on May 11, 2001 04:06:58 PM new
I would just call the whole deal off, even if the buyer DOES still want the item. I would refund the purchase price minus all fees incurred as well as a 35% idiot surcharge.
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daleeric
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posted on May 11, 2001 04:31:59 PM new
I love the 35% idiot surcharge.
This was the most difficult auction of my career and the most stressful. I actually considered taking a long business break because of this experience. I hope this other sale works out. I e-mailed safeharbor about the situation asking if I formally met my obligation at a seller. I hope they say "yes." This may be my first negative feedback. I am sure they will respond that way if I do not sell to them. Any suggestions?
They were difficult from the beginning. The husband has a business and wanted our SS# to issue as a 1099 for the purchase of this armoire for their office. I don't give my SS# out to strangers on the internet and told them so.
RE: Shipping antiques. We found freighters and craters to be very expensive. Many big sellers use [email protected]. They will give you quotes by e-mail and are very nice people.
I will let everyone know what happens. Thanks for the support. I hope they don't bid on your auctions!
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camachinist
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posted on May 11, 2001 04:43:08 PM new
daleeric
Sleep comfortably with the knowledge that you did what is customary and correct.
A 1099 Misc. for an armoire? Please... I would have laughed at the guy...
I can see him 1099ing Office Depot for his pencils....sheesh
My apologies...most of we business people are decent and honorable...
If you do respond to a neg, I'd suggest doing it calmly and factually with no inflammatory language. As a buyer, I look for a cool and professional demeanor in a business...
Pat
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BJGrolle
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posted on May 11, 2001 05:03:47 PM new
I'd say that since the buyer refused delivery, you're under no obligation to deliver it again. Especially since their reason for refusal was so ridiculous.
http://bjgrolle.freehomepage.com
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ashlandtrader
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posted on May 11, 2001 06:41:57 PM new
MrsSanta--
You are totally correct! My typo. :0)
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mikeselis
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posted on May 11, 2001 08:20:02 PM new
I would consider taking them to small claims court and have the delivery people as witnesses. Since they might not even show up to court you will win by default. Even if they do show up, they are completely in the wrong, and they judge will decide againist them. Of course you will only be able to collect your out of pocket costs, i.e. fees you paid for shipping, shipping supplies, etc...
If they don't pay the judgement it can go on their credit report and make it hard for them ever to get a loan until they pay the judgement...
Sometimes the legal option is the best option, but not always the preferred option, so consult legal counsel before proceeding.
"In pioneer days they used oxenfor heavy pulling, and when one ox couldn't budge a log, they didn't try to grow a larger ox. We shouldn't be trying for bigger computers, but for more systems of computers." - Grace Hopper
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unknown
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posted on May 11, 2001 08:41:41 PM new
DO NOT REFUND ANYTHING.
Keep the money,
Besides, where in the USA are the delivery people not Hispanic?
If they had actually been allowed to set it up and screwed it up then it would be a different story.
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Microbes
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posted on May 11, 2001 09:18:12 PM new
>The first words out of his mouth were that the delivery team was Hispanic and he didn't not want them
I'd neg him. Trouble is if you call him a racist, won't ebay remove the neg 
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daleeric
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posted on May 11, 2001 09:25:32 PM new
I did contact Safeharbor and they wrote the following which I received this evening:
"Thank you for writing in to eBay. I understand how frustrating this
situation is for you. I have listed several options below.
If you attempt to deliver the item, and it was accurately described in
the listing, then you have basically met your obligation. We hope that
you will seriously pursue any possibility of completing this
transaction, as you mentioned you would do. Usually things can be worked
out if both parties are willing to communicate with each other."
So, hopefully the other buyer will come through. I would rather this beautiful armoire went to a nicer home at this point or we can only hope that the piece is haunted!
Thanks for your comments. You all helped lighten this situation a bit.
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triplesnack
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posted on May 11, 2001 09:50:24 PM new
Complaint: Buyer refused delivery, stated he didn't want to do business w/Hispanic shipper.
Eighty characters on the nose, and no namecalling to give eBay justification to remove it.
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granee
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posted on May 12, 2001 12:37:15 AM new
I think Safeharbor is right---you should try to complete the transaction with these people, if at all possible. Where is the armoire now---with the delivery service in the buyer's city? Will it cost you more to have it delivered by them a second time (with or without setup)?
Give the wife these options, since she's the one who bid on the armoire:
1) The delivery service tries again, is allowed to set up the armoire, and the buyer pays any second-delivery charge.
2) The delivery service tries again, leaves the armoire for the buyer to set up, and the buyer pays any second-delivery charge.
3) Buyer arranges delivery from armoire's present location to his home at his own expense, and does setup himself or pays for setup by someone of his own choosing at his own expense.
4) Buyer doesn't complete the sale and receives a refund of bid price minus your expenses incurred in this fiasco.
Any REASONABLE person who felt the delivery people incompetent would have accepted delivery (without setup) and contacted you about arranging for setup or about doing their own setup....but a REASONABLE person wouldn't ask for your SS#, either.
This man will criticize ANYONE who comes to set the armoire up, so it would be best if he's not home when a second attempt is made. If the wife shares his views (as you implied when you said "they did not feel that the delivery people were capable of it" ), they'll need to arrange their own delivery or cancel the sale altogether.
Expect a neg regardless what you do (unless, of course, you pay for professional setup, you give them a full refund, AND you let them keep the armoire)....because this is one of those customers who's NEVER satisfied. Be sure you blacklist them from bidding on your auctions again.
[ edited by granee on May 12, 2001 12:44 AM ]
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squinkle99
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posted on May 12, 2001 04:26:03 AM new
Why not just tell them the truth? Don't worry about offending them or something since they obviously are not worried about offending you or Hispanic people.
I would (honestly, I would) just email back and tell them that I had fulfilled my part of the obligation and that I would be sending a refund minus my costs (whatever you determine that to be). I would explain that it is offensive (and illegal in most instances) to discriminate against workers on their ethnic heritage and that you will not go to these lengths to accomodate them. Remind them that you have already completed your part of the agreement.
I believe that you are a good person and that is why you care so much about this situation. But, there is a time and a place for accomodating the customer, and I think (in your heart and rational mind) that you know that this is not the time or place for it. He probably won't understand, but at least you won't be participating in his unfounded fears.
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daleeric
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posted on May 12, 2001 08:12:28 AM new
I do feel a negative coming no matter what I do at this point. I can only assure them that if they post a negative, they will get one that will make sellers cancel their bid.
I contacted the seller that gave them a recent negative and he said it was the worst transaction of his E-Bay career. He said at time it bordered on the bizarre. I believe it!
The other potential buyer has not contacted me yet. This was my biggest sale of all time. I will wait a bit longer and see if the other buyer comes thru.
I was actually thinking of telling them to have their woodworker invoice me for the set up, and then not pay it. I have a sick feeling that they will find fault with the armoire somehow and send it back anyway. When people are trouble like this it seems to follow suit. The dispatcher from our shipping company said that people are just strange and difficult to deal with these days. Perhaps the moral decay of our society is becoming more evident in our daily lives. How's that for philosphy and pretzels at 8:00 am in the morning?
The shipper currently has the armoire and is not charging for the second delivery. Considering the insult, I think it is quite nice of them. The wife was the one who called with the latest proposition about me paying for set up, she left the message on my machine.
I am looking into revamping my TOS to make it AH proof. Perhaps a bit sterner terms will weed those potential troublemakers out. What is your thought?
[ edited by daleeric on May 12, 2001 08:16 AM ]
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camachinist
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posted on May 12, 2001 08:20:50 AM new
Personally, I'd have the shipper return the item, pay them and move on to my back-up buyer...
Refund as I outlined in my initial post, take the negative with a factual follow-up and move on...
Please resist creating the appearance of a defensive TOS as it might scare away prospective buyers such as myself. I think we both know that folks such as your current ones make up but a tiny bit of our clientelle and we shouldn't insult or punish the majority for the actions of the few.
Also, please resist playing games with these people....you won't win...trust me..
I'm thinking that the time and stress invested in this sale has eaten up most of your profit, if you know what I mean..*G*.....time to move on...
Pat
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gravid
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posted on May 12, 2001 12:18:50 PM new
In our state of MI if he would not do business with them due to their ethnic origins he would be liable for damages under state law that prohibit discrimination on that basis. It even prohibits discrimination against fat people. Think that is a hoot?
I once had a barber here in town refuse to cut my hair because I am fat.
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buddhafinder
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posted on May 12, 2001 02:12:50 PM new
granee hit what I would want to do just right. I would just add the timeline, so that the issue is cleared one way or the other.
I'd try to neg them, even if they take delivery - completed sale, though they tried to refuse delivery from Hispanic driver (didn't count the characters).
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heike55
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posted on May 13, 2001 04:48:20 AM new
Some people.........
This feels like buyers remorse. Refund them, minus your cost, and sell to the next highest bidder. I'm sure that they would find fault with the item no matter what. Just because they can!
Do keep us informed.
heikejohn everywhere else!
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pyth00n
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posted on May 13, 2001 06:35:59 AM new
Is it possible the real problem here is the refusal to give a SS#? That the husband-buyer perhaps was trying to falsify the purchase as a business expense, is taking extreme offense to your failure to cooperate since in his paranoia he thinks it shows you have him figured out and don't want to help him take the fake tax deduction?
If this is the real "cause" you can expect zero chance of a reasonable compromise. The whole point is to make trouble for you.
Secondarily, this butt-hxxe needs to be tied down with his eyes propped open with toothpicks with "Stand and Deliver" running in front of him for about three days solid. What was Olmos' line in it? "Mathematics? You have the blood of the Aztecs in your veins. Your ancestors made the first calendar."
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