posted on May 13, 2001 06:58:49 AM
As a rule I just read the mail from time to time but in this case it seems that most are saying just give a refund less the shipping expense. Unless you state in your listing that you give a refund regardless of the reasons. I first would check with the auctions laws in your state and remember this is an auction not an out right sale. For the most part unless stated otherwise all merchandise is sold as is in the auction world and people that buy and sell through auctions know that fact. Now you did what you where supposed to do on your end and the buyer did not follow through on their end, I would leave it up to the delivery people regardless of their color and the buyer to settle the final cost. If they do not want to pay the delivery people and accept the merchandise let the delivery people hold it hostage for payment and yes, even charge storage at which case after a holding period laid out in their state laws, resale it themselves for storage. This will stop people like this from sucking eggs.
Judging from your post you did not say what color the delivery people would be in your listing but unless the laws have changed in the last few minutes, it is my understanding as well as most citizens in the USA that you are not allowed to discriminate against people because of their color or religion. Even their sex. I do know the laws on this as most US citizen should also know before making that type of blanket remark to start with. I would in this case give the delivery people a copy of the reason the delivery was refused to start with and let them file a civil lawsuit against the buyer for discrimination if they should want to do so. Regardless of what you do unless the law just mandates that you give a refund I would not. Again you did your part and unless you just want to play up to their silly demands or at least charge a fee for all your time, that should be worth something, I would let the sale be final and they can work it out with the delivery service as best they see fit.
This bottom note is just for all the know it all’s that never make mistakes and would like for their peers to think of them as gods, that really just want to get their 2 cents worth in and make themselves look big by trying to make others look small.
#1: I realize that my grammar is not correct.
#2: I realize that my spell checker can’t even understand sometimes what I am trying to spell myself.
#3 I realize that I may use the wrong spelling for a word that means the same thing.
#4: I realize that my punctuation’s may be wrong or not here at all where they need to be.
#5: I also realize that my views may not be approved by others.
#6: I also realize that I have just as much right to express my views as others have to dismiss them.
Now what you need to understand is.
#1: I am not very well education in books but if you can’t understand what I am trying to say in this post than you must have a lower education than I do.
posted on May 13, 2001 09:21:33 AM
The husband was so insistant on us giving them our SS# that he was yelling, so I give him the wrong number to protect myself.
My mind flashed back to a 20/20 episode of identity theft. The man on the program was about $100,000 in debt for items he did not buy. It is a very powerful number, don't give it to anyone.
The husband then e-mailed saying that he checked with his CPA and didn't need the SS# for this purchase after all.
It is my understanding that with a resale number you are allowed to buy items wholesale to sell them retail. Also,items directly related to the ones that you sell such as packing material, boxes to ship your item ect. An armoire for your office that you do not intend to resell is not a legal use of the resale number in our state.
It doesn't look like the second high bidder wants the armoire. I find it rare that those transactions work out after the fact. I did offer her to relist it with a "buy it now" price she could use. I will give it till monday, in case she was away from her computer this weekend.
I think the husband doesn't want the piece but the wife does. That is what it may boil down to.
posted on May 13, 2001 09:33:12 AM
Our TOS does not mention anything about refunds at all. It only states that we will make shipping arrangement and the types of payment accepted.
I am working on revamping our TOS this weekend. What can you do if refunds are not mentioned. Is it just assumed that you give them?
I understand your position although giving him what is probably someone else's SS # would be worth reconsidering if you face this challenge again in the future.
Resale license obviates the requirement to pay sales tax on items purchased for resale...I have to supply a signed certificate to my vendors with my number and the items to be purchased. It can be a single use certificate or a blanket document that covers purshases over a period of time...
Refunds....IMO, keep the TOS as simple as possible...I know most reputable sellers will refund in the cases of misrepresentation or product defect.
Selling this item....Make a time-sensitive offer to complete this transaction...IMO 48hrs is plenty...
Then, if no mutual agreement is reached, take the item back, refund total less your expenses of sale and delivery and re-list.
posted on May 13, 2001 11:53:19 AM
I will see when the company can deliver again and make that the deadline. I will advise them to make arrangements with the wife.
I never thought that it was someone elses number. That is a very good point, Pat.
Goingsold sounds very articulate to me! Thanks guys! More later.
posted on May 14, 2001 01:36:03 AM
I am BAFFLED why he would think he needs your SS# for ANY reason. If he's in your state and must pay sales tax on the purchase unless he has a valid tax exemption number, it's not YOUR place to say whether he's buying for resale or for his own personal use---that's between him and his state taxing authority. To exempt himself from sales tax, HE must provide to YOU, the seller, HIS tax exemption number, his registered business name & address. There's no reason he would ever need YOUR tax exemption number OR your SS#. If he's claiming the armoire as a business expense on his state or federal income taxes, all he might need from you is a receipt of sale (though his cancelled check or credit card statement and a copy of the eBay listing would suffice).
If the husband is mad that the wife purchased the armoire without his approval or permission, avoid dealing with him **at all costs**. Make it clear to the wife what her options are, and what it will cost her to back out of the deal (you SHOULD NOT eat the shipping costs if you refund, unless the armoire is somehow defective/not as described).
I have a satisfaction guaranteed seal in my auction listings, so I give full refunds including shipping for any reason. HOWEVER, if I listed something very costly to ship, I would remove the seal from that listing and sell it as is/no refunds OR say that refunds EXCLUDE shipping expenses incurred.
posted on May 14, 2001 03:48:04 AM
I'm still cracking up about how the husband asked for your SS#...this guy is off his rocker. There is NO WAY you should be divulging such info to any of your customers.
I had a customer once who won an item, and after getting his mailing address to calculate shipping, I forwarded to him my mailing address (a PO Box) for payment. After delaying payment for close to a week, he then emails me and asks for my street address. Further correspondence ensued, which boiled down to me telling him that the business address IS the PO Box, and him responding that he needed the street address because UPS and FEDEX do not ship to PO Boxes. ??????? I refused because I figured he was fishing for info, or possibly trying to get out of the transaction. Whatever the case may be, he didn't get my street address. Even my phone number on file with Ebay is my cellular number, NOT my home number.
I know this posting has painted me as a paranoid person...I'm not at all. But when it comes down it, the winning bidder of your auction has won your item, not the right to know any more personal info about you than they absolutely need to complete the transaction. Just my 3 cents worth
"Who's tending the bar? Sniping works up a thirst"
I wondered that also. The gentleman may have been trying to impress our seller with his business acumen (and failed *G*) or he just may have received bad advice from his accountant or advisor.
As an unincorporated proprietor, I routinely report my SS# to my incorporated customers for reporting purposes to the IRS. They are required, although enforcement is nearly non-existant, to report non-employee compensation for services rendered by my company to them. This is done on a 1099 MISC. form on an annual basis...
My wife also receives one for commissions paid to her by her salon owner (she's an independant contract cosmetologist)....
I think the thrust of this law is to document income by unincorporated individuals and entities to verify that they are reporting it on their Scedule C. Many of my customers have told me that, because the law is not routinely enforced and the costs run in the 4-5.00 range per 1099, they just ignore the reporting requirement.
Also, I believe there is a minimum threshold amount, 600.00 IIRC
Our seller here had no legal obligation to the buyer other than to meet their end of the contract.....and to me it looks like they did...
posted on May 14, 2001 09:27:24 AM
To Harmony Grove,
The address that was given to you was an e-mail address [email protected]. They are located in Philedephia but can pick up when they are in your area. E-mail them at that address or give them a few shipping quotes to do for your present auctions and see how their rates are. Please include weight and measurements, pick up zip and destination zip. Delivery does take about 4 weeks on the average.
I am wondering now if it is even a good idea to arrange shipping of your large items. If anything happens, I am typically the one blamed. I will not offer set up anymore, that is for sure. To increase your liability is foolish. What if the item is damaged upon set up? Perhaps I am just burned out from this transaction.
posted on May 14, 2001 10:12:54 AM
Why refund at all? Just make them pay to have it sent once more. If they wish to pay someone to set it up thats up to them, not you.
posted on May 14, 2001 01:54:55 PM
To protect yourself:
1. do an email to buyers laying out the chronology of what happened;
2. give them option of having delivery made and delivery men set it up, or they can set it up;
3. if not, then upon your receipt of the armoire, you'll refund purchase price less shipping (both ways!) less any non-refundable ebay fees;
4. prepare for the neg and respond in a calm, factual manner and then move on!
Re your TOS - I try to keep it as simple as possible. I call all of my auctions "as is," which gives me the option of accepting a refund if I really feel it's called for (like if I missed describing some defect). Haven't had to do a refund yet!
posted on May 14, 2001 05:13:42 PM
Occasionally I have been asked for my ID# from my customers in my RL business.
The money I receive from them are for goods.
The request is usually made with a W-9 form.
I do not receive a 1099 form, but I think one would be generated if I submitted a SS# instead of a FED ID# (we're a corporation).
It has something to do with backup withholding tax.
The W-9 doesn't get sent to the IRS, so I don't know why it is required from time to time.
posted on May 14, 2001 05:41:35 PM
On the 1099/W-9 thing, if a business pays a vendor more than 599.99 in a year, they are supposed to send the vendor a 1099-MISC (non-employee compensation) which the vendor must then declare on their income taxes. You do not have to file 1099's for Corporations. The W-9 is the form used supply the business purchasing the item or service the required information for determining the need for a 1099, and serves as the back-up in case of audit by the IRS.
In some instances where the vendor has previously underpaid their taxes, they are notified by the IRS that they are subject to backup whithholding, which can create another whole mess altogether, and is also reported on the W-9/1099 (and the people that pay them for services are supposed to withhold taxes in some cases)
posted on May 14, 2001 06:51:16 PM
More on the 1099/W-9 tax thing.
The 1099-misc is an informational tax form used to report payment for SERVICES, not MERCHANDISE. In the case of the sale of this armoire (obviously merchandise), the buyer, incorrectly insisted on getting a SSN to complete a 1099. As he later found out by talking to his CPA, this information was totally unnecessary.
Businesses usually send out W-9s to vendors they have paid or will be paying for services rendered, both to determine if it is necessary for them to file a 1099-misc for that particular vendor and to get the required information to complete the 1099-misc if necessary.
It is very important for a business to have a good Accountant!
posted on May 15, 2001 01:27:20 PM
Well, here we go again. Last week the wife said that she wanted the Armoire, so when it came back to the shipper's warehouse this weekend, the Armoire was sent back out on Monday for residential delivery to their home.
The husband just informed us over the phone today that he will refuse the Armoire again unless we paid a $180 fee to his cabinetmaker who would set up the piece instead of the "Hispanic Drivers". The money must be sent by cashier's check before delivery can be scheduled according to the husband.
My question for you sellers is: Can I charge a restocking fee on the Armoire if returns are not addressed at all in my TOS? Any input would be greatly appreciated. This issue has never come up before. Thank God.
posted on May 15, 2001 01:35:53 PM
DE - hasn't this just become the deal from hell? I wouldn't charge a re-stocking fee if it wasn't mentioned in your TOS - just deduct all actual expenses, refund the balance, and block this person from ever bidding on your auctions again. What a pain in the butt he's been!
posted on May 15, 2001 01:44:18 PM
I think I have the gist of this situation. The guy is an obnoxious moron.
This is what I would do:
Notify him you're not paying for anything just because he's a racist.
When you get the armoire back, detail everything:
Total Amount you were paid.
Total costs associated with the two deliveries.
Total eBay fees.
Refund him the difference.
If you feel a restocking fee is worth the grief this guy is going to give you for it, charge him that also.
Report the entire incident to Safe Harbor.
Neg his sorry butt.
If you received the money via PayPal or any service who can freeze your account, clear the account or close it and open a new one.
If he tries a chargeback, appeal it and show all the documentation as to what this whole situation has cost you.
I would have stopped with this entire transaction the first time this man showed how abusive he was. I've only had one really abusive email from someone, but I told him flat-out that THIS was how I did business, and if he wanted to be rude to find another seller, and I'd gladly let him out of his bid.
posted on May 15, 2001 02:59:14 PM
This makes me glad I sell little bitty things instead of great big things.. *shudder*
What a nightmare for you - I just can't believe it... I'd do the exact thing mentioned 2 posts above - refund their money less all the extra fees and stuff, and tell them to take a hike .
I don't know about the Feedback comment - was it the WIFE buying on her account or the HUSBAND on his? Ebay might say that if the wife is the buyer, her husband comments would be irrelevant and remove the feedback (dunno what Ebay will do - give the 10 mins and they'll change their mind anyway)...
posted on May 15, 2001 03:07:35 PM
The wife is the buyer of the piece. But how can I prove that the husband left the feedback for E-Bay to cancel it. No feedback yet, but it is forthcoming I'm sure.
I would actually like to charge them for wear and tear on the piece. Transporting an antique too much can be damaging. This isn't a piece of meat that you can throw around, it is the finest piece that we have sold to date. With the wife's approval, a second trip was scheduled and made and there will be a second return. I don't think wear and tear is out of line on this. What do you think?
posted on May 15, 2001 03:12:52 PM
Reality is, you control how much $$$ gets sent back - they don't even have possession of the armoire (short-sighted on their part). Given the circumstances, some premium for the hassle is probably defensible - just don't get greedy!
posted on May 15, 2001 03:34:15 PM
It might be prudent to wait until you actually have the armoire back in your possession and after you can thoroughly check it for any damage it may have incurred in its (unexpected) round-trip journey.
After doing so, tally all the costs you've incurred, including any repairs that might be necessary, and deduct them from the purchase price. That's the amount I'd refund. Post his neg and be done with the jerk.
For the future, I'd edit my TOS to include the quite common verbiage that arranging and paying for crating and shipping is the buyer's responsibility. Of course, you may offer to assist in that endeavor, but as long as you're quite clear that any transportation of the piece is completely at the discretion of the buyer, you'll protect yourself from future recurrences.
posted on May 15, 2001 06:27:20 PM
I agree. I wrote a note of apology to drivers supervisor to pass it on to the delivery team. I feel very badly about it. The company should be paid for the second trip. It will come out of the buyer's refund.
The supervisor said the husband is a little guy with a big ego. According to the law of averages, we will bump into them sometime or another on the internet.
[ edited by daleeric on May 15, 2001 06:28 PM ]
posted on May 15, 2001 08:13:55 PM
Being from Texas and growing up around lots of Hispanics I can say that they are some of the hardest working people I've ever met.
I really feel for your situation and wish you the best of luck with those buyers.
Edited to delete what I was laughing at.
[ edited by tsunamii on May 15, 2001 09:50 PM ]
posted on May 15, 2001 08:57:29 PM
This guy sounds like a real jerk and bully. It seems to me if you shipped as you said you would and the bidder was happy with the merchandise, the money they paid you should be refunded less shipping and handling both ways, ebay listing fees and possibly a 30% stupidity fee. This is one neg I would welcome as seller for it would signal the end of a deal with a real ass. Daleeric, you are way nicer than I would be to such a jerk. It really bothers me to see racism alive and well today in such a "progressive society"
posted on May 15, 2001 08:59:13 PM
Please keep your profanity to yourself raygomez and tsunamii. I know what that means as does anybody who has studied or is fluent in spanish. While it may have a different meaning in this context , it's literal translation is inappropriate in this type of forum.
"In pioneer days they used oxenfor heavy pulling, and when one ox couldn't budge a log, they didn't try to grow a larger ox. We shouldn't be trying for bigger computers, but for more systems of computers." - Grace Hopper
posted on May 15, 2001 10:40:26 PM
You've received some EXCELLENT advice here. The demand for you to send him a $180 cashier's check to pay his cabinetmaker for setup borders on EXTORTION.
I'd like to add that you should:
1) save all your emails (and print them out)
2) try to get the buyer's demands for $180 in an email (not just over the phone)
3) get the buyer's delivery refusal in writing from the delivery service
4) make yourself thorough notes about what was said in your phone conversations with the buyer (their reason for refusing delivery, their demand for you to give them $180 to pay their cabinetmaker for setup, etc.)
5) be prepared NOT ONLY for bad feedback BUT ALSO for a chargeback (assuming they charged the purchase to their CC). If they paid with a check or money order, you're more in control of the money than if there's a bank credit card account involved.
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Even their sex. I do know the laws on this as most US citizen should also know before making that type of blanket remark to start with. I would in this case give the delivery people a copy of the reason the delivery was refused to start with and let them file a civil lawsuit against the buyer for discrimination if they should want to do so. Regardless of what you do unless the law just mandates that you give a refund I would not. Again you did your part and unless you just want to play up to their silly demands or at least charge a fee for all your time, that should be worth something, I would let the sale be final and they can work it out with the delivery service as best they see fit.
Sniping works up a thirst"