daleeric
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posted on May 16, 2001 07:38:02 AM new
Thank you Granee. That is excellent advise. I have begun to document all conversations and will fully follow your advise. This Armoire was the most beautiful that we have ever had for auction. I would like to see it go to a nice home, not the home of these racist people.
I am sure they will have a fit when they are charged for the second delvery, E-Bay Fees and wear and tear on the piece. A big chunk of change is going to be deducted for nothing, he would have been much better off to accept the Armoire. He will be paying about $600.00 for shipping both trips.
I have reported the rest of the incident to Safeharbor, so I was the one to contact them first.
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camachinist
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posted on May 16, 2001 07:57:29 AM new
daleeric
Sorry to re-visit this and see not much has changed....
I assume you have other customers to attend to...IMO your energies would be better spent in that pursuit...
RE wear and tear...your shipping company is insured and bonded for safe transport and you have paid them handsomely to ensure it. Any difficulties in that regard should be with them, regardless of the result with the end customer.
Add up the shipping and sale fees after having the armoire returned to you, refund all other monies to the buyer....via money order/cashier's check and registered mail.
Leave feedback regarding the refusal of delivery....keep it simple and factual.
Ignore any future rantings from said buyer and block them from bidding on your auctions.
Let Safe Harbor do their job, with reminders if necessary...
Good luck!
Pat
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bennybbb
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posted on May 16, 2001 09:09:17 AM new
Wow Daleeric!
I have read this entire thread and sit here in disbelief at the antics of this buyer. I have never dealt in large pieces, even under the best of circumstances they have the potential for problems, shipping being #1.
This $180.00 requested is laughable, and I am glad you did not even consider it. I am betting this buyer would pocket the $180. (a reason for wanting cashiers check) and refuse delivery, thus costing you double shipping. I did not see how this buyer paid, but I also wager, if it was paid via credit card that a chargeback is inevitable. I sympathize with your predicament.
Incidentally, I also ONE buyer request SS# for a 1099 several years ago. I flatly denied the information having read and seen the nightmares which can result. This buyer then said "I will get it anyway" and sent me the link below. Its very interesting and frightening link and shows just how dangerous the internet can be.
http://4unlisted.com/cell.html
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daleeric
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posted on May 16, 2001 09:26:00 AM new
Pat, we have been so stressed from this transaction we both announced several times that we were out of business in disgust of the situation. I was so stressed that I had to have my partner handle things from the refused delivery on. We haven't had an auction on in two weeks.
Then we thought of all the lovely people we have met thru E-Bay, the thanks and positive feedback we have received and reconsidered.
That web site is amazing, you can find anything out on anyone. Very scary.
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daleeric
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posted on May 16, 2001 09:42:49 PM new
Now the husband contacted us and is upset that we advised the shipper that he would refuse delivery again, which he said yesterday. Now he is making noise about legal action. So, we will see what happens.
I think it would be a mistake to have the piece delivered, he could damage it and say it was damaged, who knows. At any rate, it would put me at a disadvantage since I would have to arrange pick-up around their schedule ect. According to what I read in our state statutes online his refusal of delivery voided the deal.
Thanks for your support out there. Wish me luck.
D
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camachinist
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posted on May 16, 2001 10:45:48 PM new
Noises?....you mean like a little dog nipping at your heels? Those kinds of noises?
I think your instincts are getting better every day...
That light really isn't the oncoming train...
Be sure to check back in and post the results in this thread....we really do care...
Pat
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abacaxi
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posted on May 17, 2001 06:57:26 AM new
daleeric -
Tell the shipper to buy one of those disposable cameras and TAKE PICTURES of the attempt of the delivery in this order.
1. Shot of the morning paper (establishes that roll was shot on or after that date)
2. Shots of armoire from all sides, showing no damage
3. shot of armoire being loaded with their facility identifiable
4. Shots of delivery, with customer's house and address visible. Shot of customer refusing delivery if possible. sight of camera enrages many people, although with two deliveryman they should be OK.
They should get the refusal in writing if possible.
********
What a JERK!
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daleeric
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posted on May 17, 2001 08:42:49 AM new
Thank you Pat. There is a lesson in each experience if you are willing to learn it. I think you were right from the beginning, your message was "cut your losses." Know when to quit with these people. The writing was on the wall.
The husband phoned the shipper today demanding delivery, but there will be none. The Armoire was offered to them twice in one day. The drivers phoned from the buyers corner and asked us to telephone them and find out what they intended to do. After speaking to the wife, she refused shipment 15 minutes after the husband did. By doing so, she refused to take posession of the piece and complete the transaction by transfer of title. In that case the title and ownership transfers back to the seller according to the atty.
What a transaction... I am buying some earrings today! I really deserve it!
D
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daleeric
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posted on May 22, 2001 07:38:57 AM new
New Development. The Buyers reported me to E-Bay's Fraud Department for Fraud. I don't know how they could prove this. I have a Bill of Lading, my cancelled check to the shipper and letters from the shipper stating they attempted delivery, if needed.
I contacted Safeharbor first, so they were aware of events while they were happening.
If a buyer refuses delivery, how can it be fraud?
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camachinist
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posted on May 22, 2001 08:34:05 AM new
A report and a finding of fact are far and away two different things.
Other than providing Safe Harbor with the appropriate documents to show your good faith, I'd ignore everything regarding this matter until if and when you are served a subpoena.
Save correspondence received but move on to more important matters...
I've fired a lot of sphincter-head customers in my tenure as a businessperson and have no regrets....some folks deserve what they get in life.
You deserve much better...
Pat
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immykidsmom
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posted on May 22, 2001 09:25:33 AM new
daleeric, please keep adding to this post, there are those of us out here very interested even though we haven't posted any advice. Others have given you great advice, many unseen folks out here are pulling for you..........
Mom included!
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daleeric
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posted on May 22, 2001 11:38:04 AM new
Thank you Pat and Immykidsmom...
The buyers said in a recent e-mail that they would like me to pay their wages for taking the day off to receive delivery on this last attempt. As you recall, we told them that we would not pay $160 set up fee and the buyer stated that would refuse the shipment again unless it was received by the delivery date, so I canceled delivery to save the shipper the effort and aggravation. It was to be the same Hispanic delivery team on the third attempt and I'm sure the Buyer would have thrown a fit over that detail. The Buyers took the day off after they were aware the shipment was cancelled. They telephoned the shipper ten times that day to try to manipulate them into delivering the Armoire to no avail.
I hope to God these people don't have or plan to have children... Just a scary thought!
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daleeric
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posted on May 25, 2001 06:59:43 AM new
Last Friday, the other interested party contacted me and said that she wanted to purchase the Armoire. Upon calling her last night, she said that she changed her mind. She had time to pick up the piece when the auction was in progress but not now. What a bunch of flakes I am running into lately.
The troublesome Buyers filed a Fraud Report with E-Bay for the insurance which is $200. I was in contact with Safeharbor the entire time this went on. I offered to send them the Bill of Lading that shipping was attempted and a statement from the shipper. I don't know how they can investigate fraud without those documents. So far, it looks like a forum to vent. We are notifed whenever the Buyer responds to our statements. Not impressed with this process.
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packer
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posted on May 25, 2001 07:35:27 AM new
I've been following this thread as well.
Here is what I would do:
1) Have the piece RETURNED to your possession.
2) Issue a refund MINUS... ALL ... Shipping cost and eBay fees. Send it registered receipt signed.
3) If they baulk about those arrangements tell them you will see them in court.
4) Block them from bidding on anymore of your items.
5) Let them make all the legal moves if they are so inclined to do. It sounds like you have enough documentation to BLOW them out of the water.
6) Give it some time then RELIST it.
7) Move on with your other business duties.
JMHO
packer
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camachinist
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posted on May 25, 2001 08:01:04 AM new
Then again, maybe someone could dig up the customer in this transaction and invite them here, ala EG's thread a couple days ago....great sport *G*
Seriously, daleeric, packer's reitteration of my suggestion early on here is still sound....
Thanks for keeping us updated....this too will end...
Have a good Memorial Day weekend!
Pat
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daleeric
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posted on May 25, 2001 09:17:52 AM new
That is very good advise Packer and Pat. We are in the process of doing that right now. The Armoire was returned yesterday in good condition. I was told by a atty. to put a phrase like "paid in full if cashed" and sent the refund certified with return receipt. If they choose to cash the check, we are under no further obligation and the matter is closed. I will have my professional word it for me, but you guys get the idea.
I am not going to participate in E-Bay's Fraud Forum. I gave my statement and don't really want to take anymore time with it. They have strict guidelines where each reply has to be 1024 character only. It is time consuming to write with that limitation. I reponded with the full story and offered proof and that is enough. I feel like sending the Armoire back to France!
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immykidsmom
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posted on May 25, 2001 07:36:33 PM new
The phrase that I use is;
'Cashing accepts as payment in full".
I write it on the back, in ink, right above where the signature goes. You could also add same statement to the front on the "memo" line, but my lawyer told me years ago where to write and what to write.
I have been following this thread........ very vexing for you, I'm sure! I'm glad there are no grey areas, in my opinion. You should be fine. These people, BOTH the man & wife are pros. You are not the first one they've tried to bully, nor will you be the last! They do this as a team effort, you know. "Oh, I want it, just don't let my husband know". Almost a good-cop/bad-cop routine! He gets to be the loud and stupid ogre (SUCH FUN!), she is so sweet and willing, and nice, bids and pays quickly (AAWWWWWW!). Bullllonny. This ain't the first time she's seen him strut his 'stuff'. A racist is a racist, is a racist. And he probably wears a few other hats as well, but no point speculating.
Hey! Can you imagine when he has a car to sell and folks answer the ad? Picture him trying to figure out if they're The Right Color to come to His Home!!! hahhahahaaaaaa! Probably CAN'T EVEN DO IT! Probably HAS to use each old car as a trade-in on the next taking a huge loss.
Oh! What about the guy/gal who reads the power meter? I wonder if they're The Right Color? You know they touch your grass each month when they come around! And they COULD look in the windows and size up the haul!
Wait! I got it! They have a messy plumbing emergency in the master bath. Call plumbing shops trying to get the number of a reliable plumber of The Right Color. Meanwhile ooze is heading for the master carpet! hhahahahaaaaaaaa!
I hate racists. Hate is a word we're not allowed to use in our house. Unless, of course you honestly, really, truely, mean it.
I hate racists.
Momma ain't happy, ain't anybody happy.
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ashlandtrader
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posted on May 25, 2001 10:25:15 PM new
Yep! 100% behind mom on this one!
Hope it eventually sells to a nice home and that you make a great profit! :0)
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daleeric
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posted on May 25, 2001 10:40:05 PM new
That does sound exactly like them. She is very, very sweet and they do have the "good cop bad cop" act down pretty well. This time I believe they were surprised by the outcome because it kind of blew up in their face. They did not get the Armoire which I belive she wanted badly. I think they underestimated when we would hit our limit on this transaction.
The husband wrote on the BOL that the delivery team said they never set up a piece like this before. When the Armoire was returned yesterday, another delivery team heard that "the husband just didn't like Mexicans." The first words out of his mouth when he spoke to me was a racist comment about the delivery team spoken with contempt.
Another seller that gave them a negative said it was the worst transaction of his career and the most bizarre at times. It has been that. I will write that phrase on the front and back of the check just to play it safe. Thanks Iammykidsmom...
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daleeric
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posted on May 29, 2001 11:45:15 AM new
My partner suggested that we hire an attorney to write the refund letter and subtract the attorney's fee from the amount. Since the husband is such a bully, perhaps it would help to let him know we have representation. The Buyers have filed a fraud case with E-Bay and who knows what will happen. E-Bay has not asked for a copy of my BOL to date. Things sometimes don't work out fairly in this world.
Both my partner and I have a sneaking suspicion that these Buyers will not cash this check and will pursue the matter in small claims.
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granee
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posted on May 29, 2001 12:52:30 PM new
daleeric,
I don't know what it will cost, but I think a letter from your lawyer accompanying the refund check rather than a personal letter from you is an EXCELLENT idea!
Don't assume these people are getting anywhere with eBay's fraud department just because eBay hasn't yet asked to see your proof of delivery attempts. I don't think there's any chance they'll win this one with eBay's fraud department OR in small claims court.
Rather than you paying their lost wages when they stayed home from work, it will be YOU asking for compensation from THEM in court!
I hope you live in southern California and your case makes it to court TV (Judge Judy would eat that husband ALIVE!!!!!!) I, for one, would LOVE to watch this case unfold in video/TV, so you MUST, MUST, MUST let us know how it unfolds! 
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skip555
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posted on May 29, 2001 01:01:59 PM new
[b]The phrase that I use is;
'Cashing accepts as payment in full". [/b]
writeing this on the check really does no good
It's like the prostitute asking the customer if he is law enforcment offceir before she disrobes
you can't sign your rights away and they can cash check with cutsey little saying and still come back and claim it as partial payment.
I go with the others who have suggested getting legal help on this one...It sounds like a case for a pro...not a perry mason wannabee
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skip555
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posted on May 29, 2001 01:04:10 PM new
check with your local bar asssoc..here in fla the bar assoc will refer you to a lawyer for 25.00 which includes 1/2 hr consult
I have used this on several occaions and it worked well
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shop4shoes
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posted on May 29, 2001 01:18:55 PM new
It's like the prostitute asking the customer if he is law enforcment offceir before she disrobes you can't sign your rights away and they can cash check with cutsey little saying and still come back and claim it as partial payment. I go with the others who have suggested getting legal help on this one...It sounds like a case for a pro...not a perry mason wannabee
I honestly don't get the prostitute analogy. That involves entrapment. Asking that of an officer no longer means anything. The courts have ruled that law enforcement can lie and claim not be and it is not entrapment.
I do think some legal advice is in order. This looks like it may get nastier.
My attorney is not a Perry Mason wannabe and he has advised me to type the terms for cashing the check on the back in several situations. In two cases he had his secretary do it for me.
edited to add:
If you are affiliated with a university you may be able to get free legal help from them.
skip555 is correct on the referrals. I am in Florida also and the bar reffered me to my current attorney.
[ edited by shop4shoes on May 29, 2001 01:49 PM ]
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skip555
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posted on May 29, 2001 03:00:33 PM new
shop for shoes
The refrence was to the suggestion made earlier that by adding the phrase "'Cashing accepts as payment in full".
to the refund check would insure no further legal liablity
The point I was trying to make is making a statement that the other party agrees to does not change the legality
So signing aand cashing a check with the above statement on it does not necessarliy mean the debt is paid in full
I had the same situation but it was someone trying to pay me less than I felt I was owed
I was advised to go ahead and cash the check with a statement real similaur to the above and I did collect the balance...becouse you can not sign your legal rights away
The prostitue analagy was probably not the best ...I should probably stay away from analogys the seem to makle sense only to me!!!
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daleeric
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posted on May 29, 2001 03:45:40 PM new
I was a witness for a friend in small claims earlier in the month. While waiting for her turn we heard everyone elses case. There was a car accident case where the parties agreed to settle out of court and one party was paid with a check. The judge asked if the check had any phrasing to indicate the amount would be paid in full upon cashing. So, I think it has some bearing in California, but I don't know how much. The judge gives his ruling later by mail. I will ask an attorney that question just to play it safe.
Do you think it would be ok to deduct the attorney's fee for the letter?
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skip555
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posted on May 29, 2001 03:56:17 PM new
dalleric
Yea thats the real problem with advice on this forum the law varies from state to state and evan in the same state depending on the circomstances
and of course state laws change every time the legislature meets
I really don't know about legal fees you can try but it seems like that maybee like throwing gas on the fire in this situation.
I would probably not deduct legal fees and chalk them up as my protection.
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shop4shoes
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posted on May 29, 2001 05:52:33 PM new
In several instances My attorney has had me put the phrase "cashing this check constitutes payment in full". There were more details depending on the situtation.
In only one instance has someone cashed the check and tried to get more money. They took me to court saying that they did not understand what was on the check and they wanted more money.
I showed the judge the cashed check. One of the first questions the judge asked the guy that was suing me was "did you graduate from high school?" The answer was yes.
To make along story short the judge ruled in my favor. He said the wording was in simple laymans terms and that a person of average intelligence could understand it. The person that was suing me had a masters degree, so he definately understood the implications of cashing the check. I had plenty of other eveidence to support my claim that I didn't owe him anymore money. All the judge asked to see was the check.
The business 2 stores down from me got rid of a partner the same way. The check he cashed relinquished his share in the business. He tried to sue for more money and the judge let the check cashing stand as acceptance of the terms written on the back. This fool cashed away his share of a thriving business for about 25% of what it was worth.
As I said before, I live in Florida. This may not work in all states, but it works here.
The prostitue analagy was probably not the best ...I should probably stay away from analogys the seem to makle sense only to me!!!
Don't feel bad. I have some crazy ones myself.
[ edited by shop4shoes on May 29, 2001 05:58 PM ]
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mark090
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posted on May 29, 2001 06:15:00 PM new
The statement saying "cashing this check constitutes payment in full" will work UNLESS when the person cashes it they put "With Reserve" on it. I remember something to that effect from my Business Law Class 10 years ago....
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skip555
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posted on May 29, 2001 06:26:21 PM new
my case was landlord tennant(me)deposit return
Landlord sent me check for partial refund marked something to the effect cashing is refund in full
I was advised to go ahead and cash the check and go after him for the rest which
I did
he had no proof of damage (becouse there wasn't any) and I got the rest of my deposit back...
This was 22 years ago so laws may have changed and after reading marks posts It think I may have been advised to put a notation next the statement.or maybe evan strike thru the statement
agin laws change yearly and from local to local and judges have descretion.
I really think this is to the point that daleeric needs some real leagal advise
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