posted on May 18, 2001 08:18:33 AM
Buyers DO NOT MANDATE seller's Terms Of Service. I can't belive that any of you think this is OK!
By bidding and winning an auction: BIDDER IS AUTOMATICALLY/LEGALLY BOUND BY SELLERS TOS ON THE AUCTION PAGE, IT IS A CONTRACT, NO OTHER CONTRACTS APPLY.
posted on May 18, 2001 08:46:01 AM
>>By bidding and winning an auction: BIDDER IS AUTOMATICALLY/LEGALLY BOUND BY SELLERS TOS ON THE AUCTION PAGE, IT IS A CONTRACT, NO OTHER CONTRACTS APPLY. <<
Buyer is not changing ANY terms of the deal. He is simply explaining how he decides what feedback to leave. If seller can comply with the requests (which are all reasonable) seller will get good feedback. If seller gets bad feedback, he will know why IN ADVANCE. Haven't we all seen sellers complaining that buyer gave them bad feedback without contacting them or explaining?
As for this "bidder is legally bound" nonsense, all he is asking for is standard customer service. If the seller doesn't put it specifically in his auction, does that mean the bidder is legally bound to accept delays of over 2 weeks in shipping, items not packaged properly, items not as described and the other things this bidder was warning against? Does seller have to specifically state "I give customer service" or else customer is not entitled to any?
He's not trying to dictate terms of change the terms of the sale after the fact. He's just letting the seller know exactly how feedback will be determined. I mean, had he said something like "since you are charging shipping and handling I will charge YOU $1.50 for my time and expenses", I agree that would be a bad thing. Instead, he is just saying that any seller who charges unreasonable shipping and handling is more liklely to receive a negative feedback. He doesn't even say that the seller WILL receive negative feedback, but only that excessive handling charges will be ONE factor in determining feedback.
I think this buyer has a great sense of humor and a lot of guts to send an e-mail like that. My only problem is that he sends it to "all" sellers indiscriminantly instead of just those who deserve it. I would never send something like that to a seller a with reasonable TOS, but for those sellers who go on for page after page I'd love to give them a taste of their own medicine.
Of course, I also think buyer's should have the right to block certain sellers when searching for an item the way that sellers can now block bidders from bidding, so what do I know....
Barry
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The opinions expressed above are for comparison purposes only. Your mileage may vary....
I completely agree with your comments - I would welcome this bidder with open arms - their expectations are reasonable and certainly do-able on my part.
So many times I've seen sellers here on AW infurated over a neutral feedback that really was deserved, angry only because they were not contacted first to "make things right". Well, hate to tell you, but the buyer has no obligation to contact the seller if they are not pleased, and have every right to express how they truly feel about the transaction. Yes, it would be NICE if they contacted you first, but they don't have to and shouldn't be retaliated against for not doing so.
This fella left such a (likely deserved) neutral and has been made to suffer for it. I COMPLETELY understand his reaction to this by spelling it out very clearly to every seller IN ADVANCE what their expectations are and how the feedback would be handled. There should be no surprises, then, for the feedback left.
Barb
**P.S. BRIGHID868, IF YOU SEE THIS POST, PLEASE E-MAIL ME AT: [email protected] - I have a question I would like to email you about.
posted on May 18, 2001 11:03:01 AM
You don't see anything wrong with these buyer terms? What about subtracting the cost of his money order, paper and envelope from your shipping charge? That is way out of line!
Like previously mentioned, his terms are stated after the fact, not before he bid! I wouldn't hesitate reporting this clown to safe harbor.
Now that I think of it I did have a recent experience similar to this, but funny he paid first then set buyer terms. He wanted to subtract money for his expenses. I replied that the sale is now void and there will be a restocking fee that nixes his fee's. Stopped him dead in his tracks.
posted on May 18, 2001 11:07:42 AMquickdraw: Read it again. He wasn't saying that he would actually DO that -- he was just explaining why he finds some handling charges to be unreasonable and using the $1.50 as an analogy. The only thing he threatens to do is deduct a feedback "point" if a seller charges unreasonable handling.
I hate handling charges with a passion, but I agree that if somebody bids on an action where the fees are stated, he is stuck with them. But the buyer is NOT obligated to leave positive feedback, and if he decides that paying $5 "shipping" to get an item in an envelope with a $0.76 stamp is "unreasonable", he is fully within his rights to leave a negative feedback.
Barry
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The opinions expressed above are for comparison purposes only. Your mileage may vary....
posted on May 18, 2001 11:34:08 AM
It really concerns me that so many sellers on this thread have a problem with this buyers TOS.
to the one who only ships once a week....what if I won your auction on Friday afternoon and I told you I only mail payments on Friday mornings? would you be upset? I can see the thread you would start right now!!!
to the one who keeps defending the gouging on shipping fees.....I have seen a lot of threads on declining sales......I wonder why?
This person is completely reasonable and is only asking for the same courtesy and customer service that any buyer has the right to expect. He can bid on my auctions anytime....we will trade positive feedbacks.
posted on May 18, 2001 11:37:34 AM
We keep refering to these guidelines as TOS when they are not. They are the "guidelines" the buyer will use when leaving feedback. We all have guidelines we use, this buyer just chose to give the seller the "heads up." That he communicates his guidelines at all is unnecessary, but if it makes him feel better to be up front, then more power to him as long as he is not rude or demeaning. It is absolutely irrelevent that he informed his seller of his guidelines after the EOA, unless of course the sellers TOS did stipulate how and when communication and feedback were to be handled.
posted on May 18, 2001 12:12:01 PM
i was just about to write, 'am i the only one who thinks this guy has his tongue placed firmly in his cheek??' barry, i agree. i think this guy has a good sense of humor!
i think his terms for leaving feedback are very reasonable. would i be wondering 'what the???' at first if i got it? sure. do i think it's a good idea to send this out to all sellers at end of auction? no. not unless it was to a seller who sent a bunch of picky conditions in his/her eoa that weren't in the auction.
posted on May 18, 2001 12:15:02 PM
One of the things that bother me.....
WHO gets to determine what is "excessive" shipping and handling? The one who is actually doing the shipping and handling OR the one who is completely CLUELESS as to the circumstances behind the shipping and handling charges!?!
Run, do not walk, away from this customer. You have no idea what his "opinions" about customer service are, therefore, you probably will not have a chance in heck to satisify this customer.
posted on May 18, 2001 12:29:46 PM
I don't find his message offensive, but I do think the way he presents it is offensive (not to mention condesending) and out of line. As a buyer, I like much of the same things as he -- quick shipping, good communication, quality product and reasonable shipping -- BUT his little speil should have been emailed to the seller BEFORE he bid.
As a seller, I always put my TOS in my auction (don't know if this seller did) - and anyone who bids on my auction is agreeing to those terms.
If an auction says no checks, it means no checks. If it says US only, it means US only. If it says shipping is $75 for something you KNOW only costs $1 to mail -- whoop de doo! I don't bid on auctions with crappy terms and those sellers wouldn't be out there if others stopped. If it's something I really really want, I can deal with the outrageous terms. It's a simple case of supply and demand.
Personally, I'd be tempted to deduct the guy points just for being a freak.
posted on May 18, 2001 12:47:09 PM
I've only had one customer send me his own TOS. He sent his address along with,' I only leave feedback if it ain't broke when I get it.' I read it, laughed about it and then sent my usual email with shipping/payment info. If we were all the same, the world would be darn boring
posted on May 18, 2001 01:18:34 PM
The only ones that should be upset at this are the ones that can't meet the requirements to ensure they receive a decent feedback.
His expectations aren't high, in fact they seem quite liberal. I'd love to see someone like this start a seller's co-op or some other type of united sellers org that would insist, in the same manner, that certain levels of customer service are met.
Sellers DO NOT decide when and where they will sell, they only decide where they will try, treat enough customers like crap and you can have your very own "sales are down' thread.
They feed me, they house me, they keep my bills paid. Your damn right I'll bend over backwards to please them.
posted on May 18, 2001 01:26:04 PM
I would certainly receive a positive feedback from this customer.
But:
I would object to being threatened with less than positive feedback before I've done anything to warrant it. Just because some other sellers might have offended him with their threats in their TOS or EOA notices, I would feel that doesn't give him the right to respond in kind to me, particularly as I have nothing threatening in my TOS or EOA notices.
It's much the same as in other threads we've seen where buyers object to being threatened by sellers before they even have a chance to prove themselves.
Based on a few (note the buyer stated that 99% of his items arrive OK) bad transactions, he decides to start warning all sellers whose auctions he wins. Silly. Those, like myself, who would gladly pass his "inspection" would still give good service, not because of threats but because it's the way we do things. And those who are going to pack poorly, misrepresent merchandise, etc., aren't going to be in the least intimidated by his spiel.
posted on May 18, 2001 01:35:05 PMIt was for a $1 item. It came at the end of his email stating he was sending out a money order tomorrow. What do you think?
On the humorous side.....
tell him your past auction guidelines provide a $10 fee for reception of email replies in excess of 1 000 words for excessive bandwith usage and time neccessary to process said email. Please take note your the last email was borderline.
I can sympathise with this buyer, but he is not going about it the right way. There is an implied threat of neg in his guideline and I do interpret this as a mild attempt at feedback extortion. IMHO, he can use this little system of his to decide which feedback to leave, but not send this to all sellers. This is very gauche and probably againt eBay rules. I'm not sure about eBay's interpratation though. I would ask safeharbor for clarification on this. If they agree, I would file for FVF and return his payment. If they don't agree I would fulfill my obligation and block this bidder from any future auctions of mine.
posted on May 18, 2001 01:38:09 PMBJGrolle: It's funny, but you are saying EXACTLY the same thing that so many bidders here have said about Sellers and their long, accusatory, and downright HOSTILE Terms of Service.
I would object to being threatened with less than positive feedback before I've done anything to warrant it.
Exactly, and bidders object to being threatened with negative feedback in a TOS for failure to pay.
Based on a few (note the buyer stated that 99% of his items arrive OK) bad transactions, he decides to start warning all sellers whose auctions he wins. Silly.
Very silly, indeed. Just like sellers who, after a few bad transactions with deadbeat bidders feel the need to include a multi-page TOS that starts warning all bidders who might bid on their auctions.
Those, like myself, who would gladly pass his "inspection" would still give good service, not because of threats but because it's the way we do things. And those who are going to pack poorly, misrepresent merchandise, etc., aren't going to be in the least intimidated by his spiel.
Just like we honest bidders who would gladly pass a seller's stringent TOS, not because of threats but because it's the way we do things. And the deadbeats aren't going to be in the least intimidated by a seller's long TOS. And yet sellers still feel there's nothing wrong with inflicting those terms on ALL potential bidders.
I think this bidder just got fed up with all the harsh TOS and EOA notices that are downright COMMON on eBay these days and decided a little tongue-in-cheek guerilla warfare was called for. The fact that so many sellers here are outraged MIGHT just mean he is accomplishing his purpose.
In my mind, the only thing that makes this e-mail offensive is the fact that he automatically sends it to all sellers. Well, guess what? Those sellers with obnoxious TOS and EOA notices send them automatically to all bidders!
Barry
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The opinions expressed above are for comparison purposes only. Your mileage may vary....
posted on May 18, 2001 01:39:06 PM
Well,
If there's any hubris here, I would say it's the sellers who imagine that this kind of "shocking" display of ire would or could be directed at them.
Folks, you may have clean noses, but obviously this guy is not meeting with such sellers.
This is hamartia (hamartia! hamartia! harmatia!) and I am howling over his stones at sending it.
I agree with Dubyasdaman that he's post auction, but let's be honest, they guy has been burned!
Here's a thought: Why the heck not just email him this:
Hello, Thank you for your email! I am a buyer on ebay too and do understand your frustration. I will be notifying you when your payment arrives and when your shipment goes out. I can be reached at this email as well as through the "send auction to a friend" function on the auction page if I don't reply witin 48 hours of your query. Thanks for your bid and here is your total with shipping {if there are options list them}
$XXXX
Here's to a good experience.
Thank you
blah blah blah
May want to send an attachment of your TOS at the top or bottom.
Why not make lemonade?
All this perceived insult. Sheesh. The guy wants to send you his money. Do the best you can and leave your ego at the door.
Save the indignity for a real trauma...like injustice and real ripoffs.
[ edited by Capriole on May 18, 2001 01:40 PM ]
posted on May 18, 2001 01:59:25 PMIn my mind, the only thing that makes this e-mail offensive is the fact that he automatically sends it to all sellers. Well, guess what? Those sellers with obnoxious TOS and EOA notices send them automatically to all bidders!
That's right, Barry, and it should stop. And this guy might think what he's doing is going to accomplish that or else he thinks he's "getting even" for all the times he's seen terms he didn't like, but all he's going to accomplish is alienating someone the way he feels he's been alienated.
I'd think this guy was looking for trouble before he even found it and his "expectations of trouble" would put me on my guard.
Don't we see a lot of threads where the seller says "I just knew this buyer was going to be trouble, right from the first email?"
posted on May 18, 2001 02:27:08 PM
I see some people have figured out that this isn't a TOS, but rather a TOFB (terms of feedback) which a buyer has a right to after the auction. (unless your TOS mandates the buyer leaving you glowing feedback, and I don't think any of us have a TOS like that.)
When I first read it I thought "what the heck is all this", but it really isn't much. You would have to give lousy service to get less than a positive from this guy. He's giving you 3 strikes before you get less than a positive.
posted on May 18, 2001 02:54:08 PM
Where is it written in eBay rules that I, as a seller, am required to:
1-complete a transaction in less than 31 days?
2-Send an email stating that I received the email on how the buyer is paying?
3-Send an email stating that I received the payment?
4-Send an email stating that I shipped the item?
I can't find an eBay page that states a seller is required to do all that this buyer asks. I agree it is good customer service and should be a seller's goal, but I don't find it as a requirement of eBay.
This TOS, TOFB and/or TOPAM (terms of post auction management)is a mild attempt at feedback extortion and should be discouraged. eBay defines feedback extortion as:
- Demanding any action of a fellow user that he or she is not required to do, at the threat of leaving negative feedback.
posted on May 18, 2001 03:05:15 PMAnonymousCoward: No, a seller isn't required[ to do any of those things. Of course, a bidder isn't required to leave positive feedback, either [regardless of what so many sellers seem to think to the contrary].
I don't think the bidder is actually asking for anything unreasonable here. But even if he were, all is is doing is saying that he won't leave positive feedback if the seller doesn't perform to his satisfaction, and that's no more "feedback extortion" than when a seller says "payment must be received in 10 business days or negative feedback will be left."
I realize that this bidder stated that he sent this little diatribe to "every seller", but I'll admit to being just a wee bit curious as to what was contained in the TOA or EOA notice the originator of this thread used....
Barry
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The opinions expressed above are for comparison purposes only. Your mileage may vary....
posted on May 18, 2001 03:11:48 PM
Here's the new Terms I'm adding: Complain about shipping and handling, -1 point. Complain about not receiving email notice receiving money/sending item, -2 point. Leave me a neg because you create your own hidden standards, -4 points; neutral, -3 points. Since only 5-10% of buyers fit into this, my sales won't be effected.
posted on May 18, 2001 03:20:54 PM
quickdraw, what you refer to as 'hidden standards' most of us consider routine business practices and common courtesy.
The fact that so many sellers will debate their right to provide sub par service is way more offensive than the letter.(and funnier)
[ edited by punkinhed on May 18, 2001 03:22 PM ]
posted on May 18, 2001 03:38:18 PM
Hostile seller's TOS are wrong.
This buyer's TOS, TOFB or whatever is wrong.
He does states a -5 or -6 is a negative feedback. So there is a threat prior to any action done.
Two wrongs do not make a right. I think BJGrolle hit the nail on the head.
What he should do is point out what he appreciates from sellers and let individual sellers decide if they want to indulge him or not. He should not specify, this or that will result in a neg, neither should sellers in hostile TOS's. What he expects is not unreasonable, but the method he communicates it is.
I would have no problem with this buyer if he were to present his requirements in a positive way.
posted on May 18, 2001 03:53:06 PM
Sure punkinhed, and subtracting money order fees and costs for letters and envelopes on their own will is very courteous of a buyer too! I got a neutral from a buyer because I waited 10 days for a check to clear and sent him two emails telling him so. Wow, what a courteous buyer.
If your so called term, "common courtesy" is so common, why do most large corporations and most small corporations do not follow your common courtesy guidelines, and still are thriving besides? I think it's all in your imagnation, your little dream world!
posted on May 18, 2001 04:23:00 PMThe fact that so many sellers will debate their right to provide sub par service is way more offensive than the letter.(and funnier)
Sellers are not debating a right for sub par service. Sellers just don't have this right. What is debated is the threat of negative feedback implied in the email he sends to all sellers when by his own admission 99% of sellers he encountered are fine.
I would say that this bidder wants to be treated respectfully, but fails to return the favor to 99% ofr his sellers by sending this email to all. Do you think a bad seller will be intimidated by this email? IMHO I think not, but many good sellers will be turned off by it.
posted on May 18, 2001 07:40:19 PM
Hmmm, mental note:
BID on all posters' auctions here who had no problem with his TOS.
DO NOT BID on the rest. If they get that upset, then WHAT WOULD HAPPEN if there were actually a problem and I worded my complaint to them badly?
Conclusion: Not customer service oriented.
Tongue is in cheek here...
But you wanna bet plenty of lurkers have made this decision?
