posted on May 18, 2001 07:53:38 PM
AnonymousCoward: Very Well Said and I Agree. This post isn't about good or bad service or good or bad sellers or long TOS, or getting burned selling or buying. IMO It's about two things,
1. The first 2 seconds of contact with someone.
If in my first two seconds;
* I offer clear views and a detailed description of any flaws of my item
*my TOS state a shipping price and 4 methods of payment
* EOA is the same information along with my address
* Excellent Feedback comments
and a buyer reads all that and CHOOSES to enter a transaction with me, then I am immedietly put off if, in my first 2 seconds of contact with them, they feel the need to threaten me.
2. and whether you believe in the motto, "Attack first, ask questions later" as your way to approach people.
I Honestly dont think anyone is upset over this buyers Feed Back tos at all.
I believe the buyersletter is very presuming Just because the buyer was maybe shafted on a sale not long ago dont mean all sellers are guilty of it till proven innocent.
When some one bids and wins an auction I have listed they are not only buying the item from me but they are hireing me to package and ship it to them.
If you Hire me to do something this means you believe I know what I am doing so Letme do it or dont bid on my item.
I am not joe ripoff from the last auction bid on,all seller are not the same dont lump all into one pile.
Just a note I am not a one of them sellers with a mile long tos in fact I have only shipping terms in my auctions.
posted on May 18, 2001 08:21:25 PM
I'm absolutely in hysterics over the fact that some people are calling this 'feedback extortion'. Anybody who thinks that it's outrageous for a buyer to tell you that he *may* neg you if you don't get the package to him within THIRTY-ONE DAYS is ABSO-FREAKIN'-LUTELY a few burritos short of a combo. Where's all your indignation about the hundreds of thousands of sellers who have TOS reading "If payment is not received within 14 days, appropriate feedback will be left". If ONE is 'feedback extortion' (snort) then they BOTH are.
You know what I think of the sellers here crying over this? Small, whiny children taunting nyah nyah nyah, I DON'T HAVE TO, those bidders aren't the boss of me.
When are you going to give up this pointless battle for control over buyers?
For those of you who can't, I propose you go into the security field or hire on as a bouncer at a large country & western bar. I am sure you will be much happier when you can make all the people do whatever you want.
To the person who wanted me to e-mail, you can reach me at [email protected].
posted on May 18, 2001 08:39:14 PM
I buy on ebay; I sell on ebay. I wouldn't be the LEAST offended by this buyer's words or tone. Not in the least. I am, however, utterly appalled at the ridiculous comments made by some sellers HERE. Wow. Yes, indeedy, PLEASE, ebay, give us a Block Seller's auctions function!!!!! (Would nevva happen!)
This tos is simply outlandish, as any seller knows for the most part, how to sell, package, and manage their auctions.
Well, if that were the case, s/he wouldn't have even had any idea what to say in the EOA response, would s/he??
Here's how I'd respond to that email:
Boy, high bidder, I'm with ya! I myself have had plenty of problems as a buyer on ebay. Rest assured, though, my own negative experiences have served to reinforce for me the importance of the very kinds of customer service you've found lacking in others. I would NEVER want any of my buyers to be as unhappy and disappointed as I've too often been. So I believe you'll find no reason to be unhappy with our transaction. If you DO, for any reason, by all means contact me immediately so we can work it out. I sincerely hope your experiences on ebay from here on out will completely dissolve any further need to have to advise sellers what good customer service is!!!
posted on May 19, 2001 12:02:18 AM
Did you ever notice the only whiners are the cheapos? The one's who win an auction below wholesale but want full retail service? That's manipulative. Skyline's buyer who wrote this long TOS bought the item for $1. One Dollar!!! Cheap buyers deserve cheap packaging, and cheap service. Do you go into a McDonalds and expect five star service? I think not, and McDonalds still can maintain good service for what you'd expect for what you pay. Let's not get into comparing apple and oranges, lest you make a bigger fool of yourself, defending this pathetic buyer.
posted on May 19, 2001 05:40:25 AMWhere's all your indignation about the hundreds of thousands of sellers who have TOS reading "If payment is not received within 14 days, appropriate feedback will be left". If ONE is 'feedback extortion' (snort) then they BOTH are.
WRONG! When a bidder sees my listing he has an opportunity to decide BEFORE BIDDING whether my terms are unreasonable or not. Don't bid on my auction and then try to tell me AFTER the auction has ended what you expect from me. I already KNOW what you expect from me. Exactly what I said I would do in my TOS that YOU read and AGREED to by placing YOUR bid. To expect anything else is a serious error in judgement.
posted on May 19, 2001 08:04:42 AM
dubya: WRONG! YOU are ASSUMING that the buyer's letter goes against the seller's TOS. However, the seller has not yet answered my question of how, if at all, this buyer's letter violates the his/her TOS.
Personally it does not violate MY TOS in any way, shape or form. Must be the reason why I have no problem with it!!!
If you received this letter, how would it violate YOUR TOS?? Please let us know how, if so. Who knows, maybe you DO ship 31 days or more after payment!
If in fact nothing in it violates YOUR TOS, then you are REACTING to it EMOTIONALLY, not PROFESSIONALLY. I suggest you evaluate why it bothers you so much when a seller takes an authoritative line with how he wants to be treated.
posted on May 19, 2001 09:26:43 AM
"Skyline's buyer who wrote this long TOS bought the item for $1. One Dollar!!! Cheap buyers deserve cheap packaging, and cheap service"
So the buyer should have what? Offered more for the item? It seems he paid the asking price and had every right to expect a One dollar item to be packaged and sent with whatever protection and care is required to ensure it's safe and timely delivery.
If one of your buyers win an auction for the opening bid do you take out your frustration by giving poor service or do you give them the same service as any?
All this guy asked for is normal everyday consideration,if you can't give it be prepared to go back to selling your wares where ever you did prior to on-line auctions.
Like was mentioned earlier, the ones that can easily meet these requirements see no problems with the letter,(other than the boldness of it) those that find meeting the terms outlined seem to have a big problem with it. Ebay is getting very competitive an dthe number one way to beat the competition is through service. I'm glad you feel the way you do towards your buyers, more biz for me.
At least you'll have something to do in your new found spare time, you can start a few "sales are down" threads.
[ edited by punkinhed on May 19, 2001 09:27 AM ]
posted on May 19, 2001 10:48:56 AM
Isn't it ironic that many buyers/sellers said in other threads they would not bid on a sellers item if their TOS said "Payment due in 10 days or you will be negged," despite the fact they say they could easily meet that requirement? Now they come here and say that they can meet this buyers terms and have no problem with it.
Isn't it ironic that buyers/sellers said in previous threads complaining about sellers TOS being longer than the item description, yet this buyers terms are longer than the greetings/ address info etc, and you agree with it now?
Come on hyprocrits speak up now and admit you're one who does that!
posted on May 19, 2001 10:49:07 AM
I don't think this buyers expectations are out of line, however I don't get the point of his email.
Is the seller that is out to steal his dollar going to say, "Golly Gee, now I'm NOT going to steal his money!!" NOPE (In fact, some crooks would get a thrill out of knowing they have REALLY irked this guy).
Is the seller who was selling a crappy item now going to say, "Heck Fire!! Better get a new widget that isn't broken" NOPE
Would this buyers written instructions have keep him from having the bad transactions he has obviously had from happening? NOPE
posted on May 19, 2001 11:10:41 AM
Punkinhed, one piece of the puzzle you left out is that many of these buyers spend their days putting in low ball bids on dozens of items. Cheap is their way of life. I've had items that sold for over $100, with a $9.99 start bid and the bidding started $9.99, $10.50, $12.50...Come on, they are showing they don't give two hoots if I make enough profit to stay in business with crazy low bids like that.
"Ebay is getting very competitive and the number one way to beat the competition is through service. I'm glad you feel the way you do towards your buyers, more biz for me."
First, my sales are rapidly rising year to year, so are my profits, so I'm not sure where your advantage lies. The only buyers you may be gaining from me are the cheapos who bid $1 on a $100 item. You can have them all.
Second, if the only sellers that remained are the one's who offer stellar service, what seller now has the distinct advantage? Your service is easily matched, so don't get too gung ho about it.
Third, I believe that you may be desperate to make a sale, and keep repeat buyers simply because you stated, "ebay is getting very competitve." It's getting competitive if you offer what everyone else is selling and what buyers no longer want. My items are either in demand or short supply, or I just market correctly to a new set of buyers.
I have an example at Target. I bought a tv for my mom on clearance (in the box) and it
it stated, "no return on clearance items." See, even Target agrees that certain service has to be dropped according to the price you pay.
posted on May 19, 2001 11:54:10 AM
For a buyer to bid 1 dollar a seller has to have started it at 1 dollar, if thats what it sells for they have no right to cry, and I'll gladly take all the people you call cheapos
and choose not to deal with.
In the same breath as you call others cheapos
you brag about buying mommy a discounted TV set that should it break down can't be returned when for just a few more of those many dollars you make she could have a guarentee. Sounds like you wouldn't be welcomed to bid on your own auctions.
posted on May 19, 2001 12:03:17 PM
You're obviously not familiar with proxy bidding. A bidder can bid $10, and the bid will begin at $1. I'm referring to bidders who bid $1 on a $1 start bid.
The tv is another story, I didn't want it, my girlfriend did. Besides that is fixed price not an auction. To get the guarantee would be another $100, and the chances it would be broken are slim to none, and if it was my brother could fix it. I wouldn't run to target and whine that the clearance item is broken.
The issue is not buying things below retail. The issue is paying a price and receiving the exact value in service in return. $1 equals $1 in service. $100 equals $100 in service. Just like in the real world.
posted on May 19, 2001 12:14:58 PM
I really think the sellers who are so bent out of shape about this guy's "terms of feedback" need to read what he actually wrote a little more carefully. It's true, he includes a lot of excess verbiage about what he would LIKE to see, and he includes a facetious example of charging for his time and effort to explain why he has a problem with handling charges, but when you come right down to it this is what he says he will base his feedback on:
Transaction time:
For transactions that take 25 to 31 days: -1 point.
For transactions that take over 31 days (no longer on the Ebay 'current' list): -2 points.
Communication:
NO email stating that you shipped the item is -1 point.
Quality of item:
For items that are damaged: -1 point.
For items not as described in auction: -1 point.
No receipt of the item: -3 point.
Shipping and Handling:
An excessive shipping and handling amount: -1 point.
The range is from -6 to 0. The ranking that I will use is:
So, in order for a seller to actually get a negative from this guy, he or she would have to get -5 points total. That means you could take an entire MONTH to turn around the transaction [-1], send a damaged [-1] item, not bother letting the bidder know when the item is shipped [-1], AND charge as much "excessive shipping and handling" as you want [-1], and you STILL wouldn't get a negative. Oh, yeah, THAT'S "feeback extortion" all right....
You're right, though -- this guy is a total fruitcake. I mean, MOST bidders would probably leave a negative if ANY of the things on his list occurred, let alone ALL of them. This guy is WAAAAY to lenient with bad sellers, and really shouldn't be on eBay as he sets too high a standard for the rest of us bidders to live up to. I can just see it now: "What do you mean you gave me a negative for sending you a broken, misdescribed item? According to that bidder with the long feedback TOS, that only ranks a -2 on the scale!"
Barry
---
The opinions expressed above are for comparison purposes only. Your mileage may vary....
[ edited by godzillatemple on May 19, 2001 12:16 PM ]
posted on May 19, 2001 01:09:00 PM
if i buy a $1 item at a store, i get the same service as if it were a $100 item. unless it would be something marked down and 'as is' or 'no return' marked on it.
the seller starts the starting price. if s/he's rolled the dice with a low start, in the hopes of attracting attention/bidders to it, it was their choice and the risk they decided to take. imo, the buyer should be treated the same as if the listing had created a bidding war and ended at a higher price. can't penalize the buyer because that didn't happen.
wait, unless i've missed something, and i don't want to go back and re-read all the posts, what happened to the originator of this thread? helloooo, are you still around? you sure created a hot topic!
posted on May 19, 2001 01:16:16 PM
godzillatemple:
>This guy is WAAAAY to lenient
That was my point way back in the begining of this thread.
>For items not as described in auction: -1 point.
>For transactions that take 25 to 31 days: -1 point.
You could get his money, wait a 10 or 12 days to ship, and then send him a box of dirt, and STILL could manage to get a positive, according to his "terms". (he would probably break his own terms if he got a box of dirt in the mail, but that isn't really the point.)
Doing things like I always do, I would get a -1 for not letting him know when I sent his $1.00 item (I don't do that on cheap sales, and have been flamed in the threads before for it, but so be it.), and possibly a -1 for excessive s&h (particulary if he thinks $2 is right for shipping 4 lbs.) No way would I get a -3 unless I pulled a big goof, or the shipper lost it, and he wouldn't take the tracking # as proof that it wasn't my fault.
posted on May 19, 2001 01:24:13 PMmicrobes: I know, but it's obvious that a lot of sellers here just don't "get it", so I thought it bore repeating....
Of course, I suppose it's possible that these sellers just don't like being told that they won't get their oh-so-precious positive feedback if they don't communicate, take a month to ship, send a broken, misdescribed item, AND charge excessive shipping and handling fees to boot.
Naaaaah. I'll be charitable and assume they just didn't read the original post carefully.
Barry
---
The opinions expressed above are for comparison purposes only. Your mileage may vary....
posted on May 19, 2001 01:27:20 PM
kittykittykitty:
>if i buy a $1 item at a store, i get the same service as if it were a $100 item. unless it would be something marked down and 'as is' or 'no return' marked on it.
Do you really think so? If you do, I won't be able to change your mind, but go to wal-mart, and walk up to the jewlery, or electronic, or gun section, and you find clerks behind the counter waiting for you, ready to answer questions and give you assistance. Now walk around the corner to where they have have school supplies, or candy, or whatever and see if they have a person on duty for no other reason than to assist you with buying school supplies.
Go to any gas station, and you will see 2 prices for gas, one for if you pump it your self, and one if you want it pumped, and you want your oil checked. Guess which price is higher?
Go to Toys R Us and buy a bicycle, if you want it in the box, you pay one price, if you want it put together and ready to ride, you pay another price. Again, which price is higher.
Like I said, if you really beleive this, I can't change your mind, but I respectfully suggest that maybe you should think about it some more.
[ edited by Microbes on May 19, 2001 01:33 PM ]
posted on May 19, 2001 01:33:03 PMdubya: WRONG! YOU are ASSUMING that the buyer's letter goes against the seller's TOS.
WRONG again. I'm not assuming anything at all. A "buyer's TOS" is only reasonable if it is supplied BEFORE the auction ends (in time for the seller to cancel the bid if he doesn't agree to the buyer's terms. The actual terms in question (in the buyer's TOS)are irrelevant. They most likely DO fit with my TOS. If you're gonna send me a buyer's TOS, send it BEFORE the auction closes. To send it after the fact is crap, plain and simple.
Following YOUR logic, I could just send my TOS in the EOA. After all, it probably will be acceptable by 99% of the bidders on ebaY anyway. Why bother putting it in the listing at all? They'll get it when the auction is over. My auctions give the bidder the chance to see my terms BEFORE they place a bid. Why shouldn't I expect the same courtesy from a bidder?
posted on May 19, 2001 01:42:34 PMdubyasdaman: Might I respectfully submit that maybe, just maybe, you're missing the entire point here?
Regardless of what the originator of this thread called it, what the bidder sent was not actually a "TOS". He didn't try to change any of the terms of the deal whatsoever! He didn't say that he would only send payment a certain way, or at a certain time, etc. Nope, all he did was explain the process that he used to leave FEEDBACK. And it was a very LIBERAL process at that, as has been pointed out. You'd pretty much have to be a complete scum of a seller to merit a negative from this guy.
I agree with you that a bidder has no right to try and change the terms of an auction after bidding. As long as the seller's terms are clearly spelled out, the bidder is agreeing to them by bidding. But this guy did NOT try and change the terms of the auction, and his e-mail was NOT a "TOS".
Just thought I'd point that out....
Barry
---
The opinions expressed above are for comparison purposes only. Your mileage may vary....
[ edited by godzillatemple on May 19, 2001 01:43 PM ]
this is really getting off the point of this thread, but ...
if i go buy myself, say a bbq grill, that costs $100 (or whatever, a lot more than $1), or grab for myself a bottle of $30 perfume from the shelf and take it to the register, i'm going to get exactly the same service as if i bought a package of bic pens: the cashier will ring it up, take my payment, place it in a bag and - hopefully - say 'thank you.'
of course there are areas in stores, as you've pointed out, where it's not self-serve - either because they're high ticket items and the stores don't want to risk shoplifting of them, or things customers need actual help with, and sometimes both
in the other examples you've cited, you're paying for service above and beyond the goods purchased - someone checking your oil and pumping gas for you (gad, do you really have service stations that still do that? none here!), or assembling. that makes sense to me; i've got a choice.
of course now we're just debating for the sake of debate, which is ok by me
posted on May 19, 2001 02:02:30 PM
godzillatemple:
I respect your opinion but I disagree. This bidders email is very much a TOS.
A seller's TOS states what a seller expects from a bidder. If the bidder bids and then fails to follow through on the seller's TOS, what recourse does the seller have? Really only one: Feedback.
Therefore the real purpose of a seller's TOS is basically to let the bidder know what is expected in order for the bidder to get positive feedback, or more accurately avoid negative feedback. The bidder has every right to know what is expected of him before deciding whether to enter into a transaction with the seller via the seller's TOS. The bidder also has every right to let the seller know what is expected of HIM in order to get positive feedback BEFORE entering into a transaction (bidder places a bid).
Again, the actual terms sent to the seller by the bidder are irrelevent. The TIMING of the email containing those terms are VERY relevent. If you wanna send me a bidder's TOS, fine. No problem. Just do it BEFORE you place a bid or BEFORE the auction closes.
The terms disclosed by the bidder as detailed in the first post are laughably easy to meet. Any seller who doesn't meet them deserves a neg IMO. But he should have sent them BEFORE the auction closed.
[ edited by dubyasdaman on May 19, 2001 02:04 PM ]
i really don't get you here, with this person's 'tofb' or whatever we're calling it. and i don't know about you, but *i* don't want a ton of emails from bidders, who haven't even won any of my auctions, stating their 'terms of whatever'!
if the person had, after winning, emailed that they expected me to ship their item overnight for $2, and give them my firstborn or something, well sure! but since this buyer is so enormously forgiving before handing out a negative, what on earth is the problem?
posted on May 19, 2001 02:13:05 PM
kittykittykitty:
>in the other examples you've cited, you're paying paying for service above and beyond the goods purchased - someone checking your oil and pumping gas for you (gad, do you really have service stations that still do that? none here!)
There are still a couple of them. I don't use them, but a lot of the retiree's down here do pay for full service gas.
To get it back on the topic, emails telling a buyer his item has been shipped is "service above and beyond the goods purchased ", and I don't do it on little tiny sales, but do do it on bigger ticket items.
To me, how much "service above and beyond the goods purchased " I'm willing to supply is determined by how much money is involved. Spend a few hundred bucks, I'll make a LD phone call to wrap a deal up. Never happen on a $10 deal, unless there was a big problem. Service is ALWAYS included in the price, and most certainly will be better when more money is spent (compare K-mart to Sears. How many customer service desks are there in a large Sears store? How many in a K-Mart? Who's prices are lower, and who's prices are higher?). That's the way the world wags.
posted on May 19, 2001 02:21:29 PMbut since this buyer is so enormously forgiving before handing out a negative, what on earth is the problem?
The "problem" is that the next bidder that does this might not be so "forgiving". He might say that he expects to have his package in his hot little hands 2 days after you receive his payment. This sheds a little different light on the situation doesn't it?
Again, it isn't the terms quoted by the user. It's the TIMING of the sending of the terms. You would never know what requirements the bidder may place upon you as a seller. Wouldn't you rather know what is expected of you BEFORE the bid is placed?
ok, to you sending out an email informing a buyer you've shipped is 'above and beyond.' i do it and that works for me; you don't and that works for you. we'd both still get a postive from this guy
and yes, you may get served a glass of champagne at tiffany's, but most certainly not at walmart . i couldn't possibly disagree that there's a point (<- operative word) where money spent and service relate.
but what if the item this buyer perchased ended at $30, $50, $100? and if the seller put it up at $1, hoping to attract buyers, when it's really worth $30, 50, 100, they shouldn't be penalized for expecting what *most* of us agree is basic service because the seller rolled the dice and lost this round.
kittyx3, who still thinks it'd be interesting to hear the thoughts of the originator of this thread
posted on May 19, 2001 02:33:53 PMThe "problem" is that the next bidder that does this might not be so "forgiving".
ah. but that hasn't happened. and if it did, it would be the same as the high bidder who lives in spain and won my auction despite my stating i only ship in the u.s. we've already got something in place for this.
this buyer is stating that he only wants something we already agree is reasonable - microbes and some others excepted, who don't send out email announcing shipment. who would nevertheless get a postive.
