posted on May 20, 2001 06:43:47 PM new
I started my online selling in FIDOnet (Does anybody remember FIDOnet?) where everything was done in in message bases (they called them forums). It worked, but was a real mess, ripoffs where everywhere, no such thing as "feedback", only flaming the bad seller. Sending someone a picture of an item (if you had a way to scan it into your 286) required a 20 minute upload.
Then I moved to haggle.com and sold there for over a year. No fees, and I did fairly well because they had an "antique computer" section, and anyone on ebay selling vintage computers had them mixed in with the SVGA monitors, Scanners, Pentium 90 computers, etc. When ebay opened up a vintage computer catagory, I had to either move to eBay, or see my stuff sell for 20% of what it would have brought on eBay.
Ebay is where the buyers are, and the fee increases don't effect buyers. The "no links" doesn't really hurt buyers. It seems that eBay is careful not to GREATLY offend buyers, and as long as eBay doesn't run the buyers off, What are sellers going to do? go somewhere and sell their stuff for 20% of what it's worth (probably to buyers that will just get it, and list it on ebay... )
If/When eBay starts ticking off buyers, you will see these other sites take off.
posted on May 20, 2001 06:55:11 PM new
Ebay was well known way before it started with the TV advertising. Sellers bragged to friends and relatives about the incredible amount of money they made on certain little items that they didn't expect to sell for a lot.
Buyers showed off their collections and told friends and relatives where they got their items. It was "word of mouth" that made ebay what it is today.
It will most likely be "word of mouth" that makes the next site successful if there is one. We have listed on other sites with some success so I realize that it can be done. But most other sites do seem lame after spending a lot of time on ebay.
I have spent the past few evenings viewing things on other sites and the selection of items that I buy just isn't there. Many prices are higher than ebay and if they are listed lower the shipping is a couple of dollars higher on some.
I have been buying on ebay off and on all day and ebay is still fun! I have found some really great items this past week! One seller made an error in his listing and insists on shipping the item first for my approval before I pay him even though I want it anyways.
I certainly don't like all the things ebay is doing and it makes my selling much more difficult. As a buyer I enjoy ebay but I would follow my favorite sellers to another site if they did leave ebay and if they continued to offer the items I want.
posted on May 21, 2001 11:55:17 AM new
Not the co-op again!
The folks who want an alternative to eBay so badly seem still to not have learned that they are too diverse in their interests and goals and too short on resources to make a co-op work.
eBay is still the best and cheapest vehicle for getting your items in front of the buying public.
posted on May 21, 2001 01:49:47 PM new
Thank you to everyone that has added their thoughts. I went and looked at some of the site that were brought up and was surprised that a site that has no fees has no business. Also the starting prices on items were the same or higher. eBAY has a monopoly on the buyers, this is evident when you look at all of the different sites. The answer is there will be no challenge to eBAY, but there will always be smaller alternatives. If you can not get the buyers to leave you do not stand a chance. We sellers are at the mercy of the buyers not just eBAY and eBAY knows this.
posted on May 21, 2001 02:16:46 PM new
Regarding Barry's post, I would say just the opposite. The way to compete with eBay is to copy eBay.
eBay's face is changing. eBay wasn't built in a day, and it wasn't built on advertising revenues. It was built by sellers offering interesting and unique items (often hard to find items) at fair prices. eBay was built on the "fun" of browsing auctions for good deals.
Now eBay is focusing on maximizing profit. They are basically cutting the small sellers loose because they can make far more profit from big ticket items. That is leaving a lot of M&P sellers without a venue to sell. The challenger to eBay should be targeting those sellers, and also plan to remain in the game for the long haul. Unfortunately, most auction sites are built on venture capital which must see an immediate and big return.
Last year, we saw the true face of online auctions, when Yahoo introduced fees, eBay raised fees, and every third party service provider down the line also introduced new fees. Now there aren't many sellers who are willing to go to work for the next eBay, sell their items for a loss, only to be shown the door once the site becomes profitable.
Unfortunately, now the seller "pros" have moved in and any new site will have to deal with tons of trash listings. But I think any site that wants to compete with eBay should be willing to keep its doors open and plan on several years before they even get noticed. Personally, I wouldn't waste time with an eBay-wannabe site. Been there, done that.
code, nobody's arguing that eBay isn't the biggest or the best. Problem is, they're the ONLY. They can set fees or policies however they want, without considering the effect it will have. Another venue is sorely needed, if only to keep eBay honest. That is the crux of the matter. The next auction site should be an "eBay alternative" and not "the next eBay."
posted on May 21, 2001 02:17:47 PM newHow to challenge ebay
1) Build a time machine
2) Get in, set the dials to 1994, press "GO"
3) Once in 1994 get on the computer and set up a web page for the purpose of trading a small, inexpensive, modern, collectible with other collectors of same.
4)Advertise your web site on all the newsgroups, chat groups etc that you can find on the web
5) Run the web page from your living room or family room or garage...whichever works for you
6)Do this for the fun of it...with no plans to become a multimillion dollar company.
7) Have no business plan, mission statement etc...make it up as you go along...after all, this is only a hobby...your doing it for the fun of it
8) Be surprised when more people than just the small circle of people who collect your collectible start using your web site to trade/sell other items.
9) Add more servers. When you can no longer afford to finance this site yourself, start charging the users a fee so the site can continue growing.
10) Begin to realize you have inadvertantly started a thriving business. Word of mouth and news stories are beginning to GROW this site!
At about this time this guy named Pierre over on the west coast decides to start a web site so his girlfriend can trade her Pez with other collectors of same. He too follows steps 3-7 and his site starts to grow too. Your site isn't the giant of the new OAI yet so Pierre's site also grows. Within a couple of years you both have big, profitable businesses...your the twin giants in the field.
Both of you are getting new members everyday...some users are members of both sites. The news media is picking up on your success more frequently and both of the auction sites continue to grow. Others see the success of you and ebay and try to jump on the bandwagon...big ones like Amazon and Times-Warner and little ones like former members of your or ebay's site...but they are Johnny-come-lately and only nibble at your toenails...they cannot gobble up your market share.
You and ebay were there at the right time in history with a unique idea...an accidental idea. You didn't knock at the door of oportunity...opportunity jumped out and grabbed you.
Coming forward a few years to the present...ebay and your site are the top of the heap, towering over all others. Each of you will be constantly working on ways to differentiate yourselves, hoping to get a bit of the other's share of the market. You and ebay will be challenging each other and kicking dirt onto the other teensy auction sites who have jumped on the bandwagon. You and ebay are the Coke and Pepsi of the OAI...everyone else will only be also-rans.
The only way you and ebay can be toppled is if someone else happens to be in the right place at the right time and comes up with an idea that is DIFFERENT from the concept yours and ebay's success is built on...a concept that grabs the public like online auctions did.
But until then, there will not be a successful challenge to ebay.
Just MHO based on watching this industry for the last three-four years. Not cheerleading...just the situation as I see it unfolding
w
posted on May 21, 2001 03:30:08 PM new
I see your point - about being at the right place at the right time. Unfortunately, it's not a realistic option to get into a time machine....
However, it would seem that as time goes on, eBay is starting to look less and LESS like an "AUCTION" and more and more like a REATAIL STORE of Bargain Basement Offerings.
(perhaps an online clearing house of some sorts?) LOL
SOoooo with that in mind, and the knowledge that what made eBay successful and FUN to begin with was the AUCTION Atmoshpere... perhaps the Mom & Pops who are branching out to other venues will find something similar to what they fell in love with (about eBay) in the beginning.
posted on May 21, 2001 04:58:31 PM new
Dottie and Toke...you may be right IF the appeal is the auction format and IF ebay morphs into a non-auction liqidator...neither of which we can be sure of.
Has anyone REALLY figured out just what it was that grabbed the public's attention? Is there any study that has definitively shown what the secret of ebay's success was or is?
At the present time all the pretenders to the throne don't seem to have much of a claim. They are auctions too, yet that doesn't seem to be enough. Some of them seem to have more of a feel of the old ebay "community" (Gold's for instance, according to many of the former users), yet that doesn't seem to have been the "secret ingredient".
One of the complaints I have seen about ebay for three years now is the lack good customer service (this predates the IPO)...yet those that seemed to have better customer service haven't been able to make the grade either.
It really can't be the fees for two reasons...one is that ebay had fees early on and that didn't drive the users away. Two is that those sites that are free don't really challenge ebay.
Yahoo was free but even with lots of listings it wasn't much of a challenge. Some sellers were able to sell there but it took time to sell most items...and the reported deadbeat problem seemed large. Also, being free, it had one of the problems many feel will be the demise of ebay...a lot of junk listings with many retail crap items dumped there. This was so much of a problem that the yahoo PTB said they were instituting fees in part to stem the junk listings.
I know we can't build a time machine (dang..if we could I could shed a few years, which would be nice!) but I think that going back in time would probably be the only way to challenge ebay.
IMO, the secret to ebay's success cannot be duplicated today. The secret depended on someone NOT TRYING to build an online auction. It depended originally on gathering together a group of people who were fascinated with the new internet and with computers at a time when the internet was not used by a large segment of the general public.
It depended on the quick growth of computers in the home and people getting on the internet.
It depended on the ability of people to sell their items to a much wider audience than they ever could in their own community and therefore finding the buyers for their items that they couldn't find in their own community.
It depended on the news media picking up on the phenomenon and spreading the word. It depended on that word including the fact that people were getting great money for items no one ever thought COULD bring that much money.
I'm not sure it was the auction format that did it. I think it had more to do with the ability to conduct business worldwide, with a minimal investment...the auction format just added a little more ZEST to it.
Ebay succeeded because it wasn't planned...no one started it to become wealthy, that just happened. Ebay succeeded because there was only a tiny investment to begin with...no one was worried about losing millions of dollars if it failed.
Once it happened, ebay was already huge and kept getting bigger.
Now, in order to challenge ebay it takes lots of money. This puts a real strain on the new challenger...can they keep pouring money into a site for the probable years it will take to possibly be successful?
Can a new site pull enough buyers and sellers from ebay to become viable? How do they get the buyers fast enough that the sellers will come...or vice versa? Ebay didn't have to worry about that in the beginning...and by the time it was important they already had a good stong user base.
A new site would have to open up with plenty of items for sale at a reasonable price AND plenty of items with bids in order to attract the attention of a sizable portion of the ebay user base...or a new user base who doesn't already use ebay.
Its a chicken and egg thing that looks impossible to overcome...and one that ebay never had to worry about.
There will be no challengers to ebay (IMO) but there will be a continuous stream of those who try. They will last as long as their money holds out. While they are there some people will be satisfied selling there and others will be happy buying there...but they will eventually fold or just limp along.
Somebody made the comment that the buyers aren't affected by the rules and changes of ebay enough to leave and as long as they stay the sellers will stay...may not be the same sellers, but the offerings will keep the buyers at ebay. Sellers need buyers. a site needs buyers to bring in lots of sellers...a new site can't get the buyers first so any new site may find their money being drained away before they can bring in enough sellers and a variety of goods.
Although the users helped build ebay, it wasn't JUST the users that made ebay big. It will take more than a few users to build another site into a viable market where sellers can get the same traffic they do on ebay and buyers can get the fantastic variety and bargains they can on ebay.
posted on May 21, 2001 09:27:18 PM new
Rah, rah, sis boom bah, goooooooooooo eBay!!!
Why is it that eBay cheerleaders who've never listed at other sites, or bought at other sites, can speak with such profound words of wisdom about the fate of 'the competition'??????????
eBay will destroy ITSELF in due time, because their rules will repel the honest sellers, their bad sellers will repel the buyers, and their fees will price them out of the market (I predict another price increase before the end of the year, as they try to make up lost revenue from the flat growth resulting from the recent fee increases)....leaving a wide open market for other 'venues' to fill, whether they be auctions, fixed-price sites, Bargain and Haggle-type markets, online malls, individual small business websites joined by common links, or something not yet in existence.
posted on May 22, 2001 07:40:45 AM new
Hello Twinsoft,
"Another venue is sorely needed, if only to keep eBay honest. That is the crux of the matter."
I think the crux of the matter is that no one is interested in developing another site that is going to lose money just so that it can keep eBay honest.
Everyone seems to think that eBay is some onerous monster that must be combatted. In the end analysis, eBay is only a business trying to make money just like any other business, regardless of size.
Sellers come here and complain about eBay increasing fees. About the post office increasing fees. About picture hosting services increasing fees.
Well guess what? All fees are inevitably passed through to the buyers. So raise your starting bid to account for the increased cost of doing business. Pass the cost through to the buyer, just as any business would do.
You can't do it because some other seller is going to undercut you? Well guess what? That is capitalism at work.
And when you are being undercut keep in mind that the seller who is undercutting you is either paying less across the board for the same product or is selling at a loss.
If the other seller is paying less across the board then you cannot compete with them regardless of what the post office or eBay charges. Unless you figure out how to cut your own costs of acquiring and selling the same items. Sometimes you have to be inventive.
If the other seller is selling at a loss than you have to be prepared to wait them out. If you are selling common place items then you need to find another line of business. If you are selling stuff that isn't common place then your wait should be fairly short.
Mom and Pop sellers generally approach their business in the most unbusinesslike manner. They find stuff at flea markets, garage sales, estate sales and immediately list it. They rarely research the market or time their sales. They almost immediately dispense the income they derive from their auctions and never build a reasonable cash reserve so that they can weather the vissicitudes of the marketplace. Then, when someone raises fees or begins charging for what was previously a free service, these people can only complain about how someone else is greedy and uncaring about them.
These people have done as much as eBay or the Postal Service in bringing such misery upon themselves. And all the complaints in the world are not going to change the dynamics of the situation. Nor will an alternative auction place to eBay change the situation. For an alternative auction place to survive it will have to find solutions to the same problems that eBay faces. That means it will have to find money to pay for the resources it requires. Attract buyers. Attract sellers.
posted on May 22, 2001 07:53:28 AM new
Hello Dottie,
"However, it would seem that as time goes on, eBay is starting to look less and LESS like an "AUCTION" and more and more like a REATAIL STORE of Bargain Basement Offerings."
With all due respect, I don't hold with that opinion. To the casual browser, this may be the effect of the growth in listings that eBay has seen. To a collector doing specific title and description searches, eBay appears better and better.
I have seen no fall off in the number of items that interest me, both in cryptology and in tinsmithing. If anything, I've observed a gradual increase in the number of items or in their frequency of appearance on eBay.
If, as a seller, you are listing stuff that everyone and their brother has equal access to then yes, eBay is looking more and more like a bargain basement store as more folk see the opportunity to get into the act.
And if you are a buyer looking for that type of item then yes, eBay is more and more like a bargain basement store as you have more virtually identical items to choose from with price being the only determinant in your buying decision.
But if you have reasonably scarce or even rare items or if you are looking for scarce or rare items you have no problem selling or buying the same on eBay.
posted on May 22, 2001 08:06:33 AM new
eBay cannot be challenged right now on all fronts. Too much resources and infrastructure would need to be expended.
The only way that eBay can be circumvented is by relatively small, niche sites focused at a certain hobby. In my hobby, I observe beckett.com (baseball cards). They seem to be doing great auctionwise. Many prices realized are much more than ebay.
This new site should not spend time drawing masses of sellers. Maybe start with 10-12 sellers who will contribute heavily and consistently. The money should be spent drawing BUYERS. If there are buyers, the sellers won't be hard to find.
It also should be a fee based structure. "Free" sites simply don't have the resources to advertise with any impact, even on a specific hobby. Free sites also attract a lot of junk, which frustrates the bidder. 5/10 cent listings (common with baseball cards) make no money and bury the real deals.
posted on May 22, 2001 08:12:30 AM new
With such an abundance of new wholesale items and all the "Buy it now" that goes along with them it does make ebay look more like a retail store than an auction site.
But I agree with codasaurus that ebay looks better and better for a collector. Not only do I buy items for myself, I purchase them for some of my customers who do not have a computer or do not wish to buy on the internet. I am able to find them items that they are unable to get in this area. I am making a profit and I am getting return customers in my shop.
I have said it before, if ebay forced all the small antiques and collectibles sellers off their site then another site may have a chance. But as it grew there would also have to be more fees to the seller. It is all part of doing business and it almost always costs money to make money.
posted on May 22, 2001 09:14:38 AM newThe folks who want an alternative to eBay so badly seem still to not have learned that they are too diverse in their interests and goals and too short on resources to make a co-op work.
I get the impression that some have used the idea of a co-op as a vehicle for ego-massaging rather than to truly create an alternative to eBay. Self-interest seems to have eclipsed practicality and solid planning. It was amusing in recent months to watch certain parties pretend to be diplomatic and cooperative when you know they just wanted to nudge each other out of the spotlight. Reminded me of that I Love Lucy episode where Lucy and Ethel inadvertently buy the same dress to appear on stage together, then rip each other's outfit to shreds while singing "Friendship." Fun stuff!
The planned boycott of AuctionWatch message boards scheduled for tomorrow is another example of style over substance. The leader of the boycott (one of the co-op leaders) is rallying people not to post here -- thing is, he's posted his battle cry on a message boards that only a fraction of all posters read or even know about. (It was also copied and pasted to another board known for AW-bashing, but again a board that relatively few here probably read).
I have to wonder why news of the boycott wasn't posted here at AW. We're the people the boycotters are trying to reach, right? (For the record, I will not be participating in any boycott.)
Could it be that they have refrained from posting notice at AW because they suspect that if they do, their posting privileges here will be placed in jeopardy? If that's the case, I really have to wonder about the sincerity of their boycott. I mean, if AW is such a bad place, worthy of being boycotted, why would they be worried about losing their posting privileges here? And if I'm wrong, why haven't they gone ahead and posted news of the boycott here? Or at least tried? I assume they haven't tried because I've seen no complaint of WOMD threads at other sites.
On one hand, they're telling us that AW is bad, needs to be boycotted, etc. Yet on the other they seem not to want to risk being excluded from AW. Mixed message, IMHO. And isn't that what we've been seeing all along from the co-op people? Mixed messages, crossed purposes, etc.
eBay IS moving more toward being a Bargain Basement, wholesaler, retail liquidator store!
This is a quote taken from an AW article:
[eBay's CEO Meg Whitman summed it up in a recent speech to an audience of financial analysts at InfoWorld. "People always came to eBay for unique items and hard-to-find items. Now they are coming to eBay for value." She added that those buyers are bringing in a new class of sellers: Large retailers, wholesalers, and liquidators, selling overstocked inventory or refurbished consumer returns. ]
The entire article (and much more) can be found here:
(be sure to follow the links to MORE on that topic located at the bottom right hand corner of the story's page).
In addition, it is not always true about legitimate RARE or SCARCE items being marketable on eBay. In many cases, the offering of so many replicas has diminished buyers ability (and desire?) to find and appreiciate the true value of the REAL THING.
Not so bad for eBay though... since they've teamed up with Eppraisals and for a FEE sellers can have their legitimate items appraised. But, does that REALLY help to actually SELL the legitimate item once it has been appraised? (eBay also have Authtentication services available for a fee) My personal experience thus far is "NO"....
I agree (and hope) that nobody will "topple" eBay. And I also hope that eBay remains a successful venue for folks to buy and sell items. I love eBay!!!!! BUT... I'd sure like to have other successful venues available as viable alternatives.
The "challenge" wouldn't be so much for eBay, as it would for any other site that comes along and wishes to make a go of it! *smile*
posted on May 22, 2001 10:52:44 AM new
Aren't a good number of the small "mom and pop" sellers already selling wholesale and liquidated items? Isn't a lot of the new stuff that has been on ebay for a long time just this type of merchandise?
Seems to me ebay already was a bargain basement, wholesale, liquidated retail store...BEFORE the big guys started coming
)
