I am sorry, but I totally disagree with you. If you feel that a seller who does not leave feedback first is guilty of "no communication and poor sellers attitude." then you truly have unreasonable expectations. A seller can have wonderful e-mail correspondence, a pleasant attitude, quality merchandise, excellent prices, detailed descriptions, superb packing, prompt service AND still they may choose to leave feedback LAST. Does this make them a seller you should stay away from? Absolutely not. You would be fortunate to find a seller who pays attention to the above mentioned qualities. Feedback is a bonus, nothing more. It is not a requirement of ANY transaction (from either a buyer or seller standpoint). To limit your opportunities on eBay in an attempt to boost your feedback is not prudent. Try to remember what makes a transaction sucessful. Feedback is not it.
I am not trying to dissuade you that there are bad sellers out there. I am sure that you had some very disapointing transactions with sellers to make you come to this decision. However, think about the transactions you had that were bad. Were you overcharged for shipping? Was the packing poor? Did the seller neglect to mention serious flaws? Now... think about this... would it have made a difference if they HAD left feedback first? You still would have been upset with the transaction. (and rightfully so). The only thing you would have saved yourself from would be a retalitory neg. If THAT is the reason you are implementing your new policy, let me assure you that it is not necessary. The experienced seller can easily spot retalitory negs. As an experienced seller, I can also assure you that I would never hold anything against a bidder with retalitory negs on their profile. Don't let sellers bully you around for fear of negative feedback. If you follow your new policy, that will be exactly what is happening. You will miss out on opportunities to obtain rare merchandise, great values and possibly even making wonderful trade relationships with truly exceptional sellers.
I'm a buyer. If I get feedback, great. If I don't, that's fine, too. I don't even think about it. I don't keep track of who leaves feedback first --- if I leave feedback before the seller does, I don't keep checking to see if he/she eventually leaves it. Some sellers take longer to leave FB than others do; I leave feedback on the day I get the item and move on.
So far, I've left 114 positive FBs (no negs or neutrals), which represent every item I've purchased. I've received 90 positives (80 from unique users, and no negs or neutrals). The first few times I didn't get FB from sellers with whom I had a cordial e-mail relationship I did some checking --- they weren't FB leavers. But that wouldn't have prevented me from buying from them again, because the items were wonderful and the transactions, less the absence of FB, were great experiences.
I personally feel that it's a mistake for a seller to leave FB before the buyer does. It renders sellers helpless if the transaction goes south.
My sister, who is an eBay seller (1000+ auctions), has left far more FB than she's received.
It's all just part of the game. Dwelling on it isn't healthy!
That WAS a good one. I gave it a 8.5 on creativity & 9.0 on delivery (though my overall final numbers will be based on if they leave feedback for me). Even better than most jerry12's.
>check the first feed back page on the seller when I come to an auction that I am interested in bidding on. Guess what? it works great for me.
So what do you think when you look at the feedback a seller has left, and you see that they post a slew of feedback every 2 or 3 weeks, and it is for sales that are anywhere from 4 days old to 3 weeks old?
Thank you so much! Now I won't have to cancel your bids.
How can you judge a seller by whether or not they leave feedback first?
I judge a seller by whether or not they ship the right item, describe it accurately, don't overcharge for shipping and package nicely so the item doesn't get damaged.
I can't judge a seller on whether or not it gets lost in the mail or whether or not they leave me feedback.
It's bidders/sellers that are uptight about the online auction business who make this very rough on all of us. Stay loose, your feedback will come. Maybe the seller leaves it once a month.
Oh another thing, someone said that bidders don't leave it. That's absolutely correct. Too many new bidders (feedback less than 25) don't leave feedback because they claim they don't know how. But they sure know when they don't get it, don't they?
posted on May 21, 2001 08:58:55 PM
I happily reciprocate every feedback I'm given. I do not post it first for a variety of reasons, most importantly because the system itself is flawed--for purposes that serve ebay, not its users.
My feelings about feedback are well represented in a previous thread; mrjim sums it up quite well.
posted on May 21, 2001 09:24:21 PM
We leave feedback if its left for us. Given eBays new feedback forms it now takes 3 times as long to give those feedbacks. We sell hunderds of items weekly at the site. We also attend 14 other points of sale.
Feedback in itself is rather funny. Consumers at least many are simply ridiculous. Its like they VAULE feedback when it means ABSOLUTELY nothing at all. Feedback is SUPPOSED to be a safeguard to manage to avoid bad sellers and bad buyers. What it is now is a handshake after the sale.
We have ALOT of feedback, well over 6,000. We'd have upwards of 18,000 or better if we were feedback crazy. It means NOTHING. The fact is 1 in 4 buyers even care about feedback. 75% of all buyers care more about getting a good deal and getting what they paid for. There is a small segment of buyers who think feedback is glamorous or something. I dont pretend to understand it, like some screws are loose or something. I have saw MANY people who hop from seller to seller to get another feedback point! Then months later they are back buying almost exclusively from us because they got ripped off. Does anyone expect barnes and noble? Buy.com? or anyplace else to leave feedback? Do they even have it?
No.
Traditionally we have also noticed many times the ones who MUST HAVE feedback are also those when we look at a bidding record pay 5 times to 10 times as much in bids as those who could care less about feedback but would rather have a good deal and get what they paid for.
Feedback means ZILCH. I can readily find sellers with 3000+ feedbacks and 100 negatives. Taken literal that 1 in 30 people that are unhappy. Thats a HORRIBLE record. The feedback mechinism was put in place as a mechinism to allow sellers and buyers to be informed as to whether to accept bids or place bids respectively. Its not some sort of game, he or she who has the most wins.
People who make decisions buying based on whether a seller leaves feedback or not are the exact same crowd that hops around from seller to seller to try and attain a higher rating. Thats just crazy. Something I might expect of a child as its a game but not of an adult. Adults seek out our auctions for a reason. The prices are excellent, we run many many REAL auctions starting at $1 considerably below our cost and we deliver the goods whether they win for $1 OR $100. The majority could care less about feedback as they realize what it is, its a mechinism of safety NOT award/reward. If we had to leave feedback for every single buyer and we get many the site might very well be so time consuming we'd have to review pricing or raise costs to end buyers or simply look at the site as becoming not viable for making a profit. We sell at some of the highest traffic points of sale on the net under terms of consignment.
If you (or anyone) as a buyer had to take 4-12 hours a week dealing with every feedback what would you do? Especially given the fact that other points of sale you use generate 4 times the amount of revenue?
Its our feeling and always has been that eBay should make the feedback mechinism a points system. ie: 5 for shipping, 5 for quality etc. average it all together. There is no need at all for any verbage.
Our customers know how we handle feedback and they have no issue with it. At the sametime they are appreciative of the excellent deals they receive. Those who thrive on the feedback itself are quite funny. This is not a game of cards or bowling scores. Its sales. Its revenues. Its money. Not like we all attend the same church and are giving one another character references and thats exactly how it appears with that 20-25% actually its probably less, 10% that will email a seller once payment is made and yell "WHERES MY FEEDBACK!". They are either children or looking to "feel good" and get a character reference they feel they paid for. Sales is nothing of the sort. You wont see Walmart giving every customer a lick on star for their forehead. The doctor gives kids a lollypop for being a good patient. The school teacher gives a stick on star for a 100%.
Yet, no seller can REALLY use feedback as intended. Someone issues us a declined credit card we ought be slapping out in public view that this person passes declined cards. Or this person did not pay thus stiffing ALL good people at eBay. The moment a seller leaves such feedback they get retaliatory feedback making a bad sale a worse sale.
The transaction mechinism as a whole has too many holes. When a buyer pays we ought be able to go to eBay, mark it as paid and have some pre-canned feedback left. When they recieve the item they go to eBay and check some box saying recieved. Any buyer saying I didnt get it and a seller can prove they did is gone from the site permenent. Any buyer not paying by a set due date, also gone or suspended pending payment.
eBay does not try to close the reigns in that tight and I am sure its due to trying to keep the place running mostly happily. They have problems with some sellers and problems with some buyers.
I'll give you an example even. We had a guy INCIST on using paypal. We have a merchant account and accept cards directly. We know the RULES and ROPES of card processing and would never in a million years use a service that causes consumers or us for that matter to breach bank contracts. We told him we dont accept paypal and let him know he can pay us by MC/Visa/Amex or Discover, money order, check etc. Whats he do? He leaves a negative saying we dont take paypal and filed a complaint with the Better Business Bureau over that!
Amazing! So what are we to do? Sue? We respond to the complaint filed with the BBB and cited to them fraudulent use of BBB services. We also issued notation to the card processor with all coorespondance and facts. So now this "case" is more than likely going to face HIS bank and answer to them:
A. Why would he not pay a merchant who has qualified for all 4 major credit cards.
B. Why he is using a third party with THEIR card and THEIR money to pay people who DONT and have NOT qualified for a merchant account and face the fines from the bank for the breach of cardholders contract.
Its an amazing place the internet. People worry about feedback but will readily pay people who NEVER in a MILLION YEARS would qualify for an actual merchant account via a third party payment service and could care less if it breached the contract they have with their bank... that is until their bank catches up with it and fines them or calls in the full balance due on their account never realizing that the cardholding bank would never have even issued them a card had they KNOWN they'd be using it to pay parties who are not qualified to accept credit cards.
Walk into Walmart and ask if they take PayPal or a restuarant or gas station! Its like walking into a restuarant and the first thing they say is "If you get food poisoning, slip on our wet floor, die from botchilism you agree to not hold us libel" and have you sign your name to it. Thats what terms of service that say "you agree to not hold us libel means"... It means when your bank or authorities etc. come after YOU for lying to your bank about the contract you signed with them that you agree to NOT hold the payment service libel. Its WHY its there.
There are ALOT more issues to worry about in eCommerce than feedback. Those who thrive on it need to re-evaluate exactly what it is to them. Is it a personal commendation? Is it a race/game? Either way, it doesnt buy you a free cup of coffee and is absolutely NO indicator of anything. We have people with hundreds of feedbacks who stiffed us and never paid. Then all of a sudden after they have done it to a few sellers their account is suspended or terminated THEN they want to pay.
Feedback is at best an imperfect mechinism and eBay knows this as does any seller/buyer who takes eBay seriously. Its sole purpose is to display to sellers that this is a good buyer (and again, not always) and that this is a good seller and again... not always. Its not a game, its not a personal commendation mechinism its a ying/yang balancing act and not many other forms of eCommerce sites use it or ever will. If you stiff Amazon 2 times with declined cards you simply wont be buying there anymore.
What really needs to happen is an eCommerce payment standard and thats coming.
Even the federal government has clearly stated the SAFEST way to buy on the web right now is by credit card and ONLY with merchants who have qualified to accept credit cards with REAL banks like Amazon, us, many eBay businesses. Not third parties, not checks and not money orders. You dont see eBay for example taking it's fee's for sellers from paypal... not an option. They Bill the credit card DIRECT. Thats a closed loop. We offer the goods, we accept your credit card, we obey the pertinent laws in all regards or we are LEGALLY in trouble. Consumers need focus on their safety and assurance they are dealing with reputable people, not focusing on DO I GET MY FEEDBACK when literally you wont find any "branded name web business" using such mechinisms. They need to be informed as to THEIR responsibilities not only to say a seller and eBay but in the case of credit cards etc. their bank.
Go walk into the bank that issued your credit card and ask them to perform a charge for an eBay seller who doesnt take credit cards direct. See what your bank says. They WONT do it. If they WONT do it why would ANYONE think its perfectly OK to do it via say PayPal?
Consumers LOVE all this new technology in shopping from home and such but are completely all over the roads when it comes to having knowledge about WHAT they are doing. ANYONE that focused on say feedback needs to REALLY evaluate why. What is it to them that makes it an imperative as eBay does not have it as an imperative. They dont say EVERY buyer and EVERY seller need leave feedback. Its optional.
In our case we are low-ticket goods and high volume or we dont make a profit. Our customers appreciate the fact that we FOCUS our efforts on A. Protecting them and being factual, B. We deliver great items at the best prices running REAL auctions. C. We answer every email sent us and we support what we sell with REAL policies. The majority could care less about feedback, they care about the deals they are getting and realize
that those bargains and the assurance that they WONT get stiffed is FAR more valuable to their eBay experience than feedback. Even eBay itself about 3 years back now when they awarded us certificates for sales & service excellence by eBays CEO & President respective told us we are one of the "best" welcome mats at eBay as we GUARENTEE a good experience by the nature of our business model... NOT due to feedback. We could have our feedback rating Zero'd tomorrow from its present 6000+ and it would make no difference at all. We'd still do just fine as the "normal" consumer wants the deal and getting what they paid for, they dont care about handshakes after they paid.
posted on May 22, 2001 06:00:15 AM
As a seller, I always leave feedback when I've received payment. When I'm buying, I just look at the seller's feedback to determine whether or not there are any negatives, are they retaliatory, etc.
I hate to stray, but since whynot already did, I have to protest that just because sellers take PayPal, Billpoint, or whatever service, does not mean that those sellers wouldn't qualify for a merchant account. Think about it.
When I first started selling online, I only took checks and money orders. Then, after scouring the ads I starting noticing the PayPal logo on so many of them. So, I checked them out and signed up. Then, Billpoint, then the next one down the line. I didn't know anything about merchant accounts. My first introduction to them was in reading various threads here where people have stated that a merchant account is considerably more expensive than the online services, not only in per transaction costs but in monthly fees. And after learning of that, why would I want a merchant account?
Now, I can tell you that I am authorized to charge credit cards directly through ProPay. They're very similar to PayPal and the others, except that you have to give even more personal information when you sign up because they claim to do a more thorough background check on you because you are authorized to charge the card directly if you have the credit card number. I actually had a customer email me his credit card number because he thought that's how he was supposed to do it. I would never ask someone to do that, it's not safe. But since I had the number I did process it through ProPay and everything went fine. But, that is one and only time I ever used the service, and I've been registered with them since last September. Why? Probably because they have higher rates than many of the other payment services for one. Two, they do require you to give them your Social Security number, which many people would not want to do. Since I don't really need the ability to charge cards directly, I'll probably close out my account with them at some point and take them off my auction ads. (As long as Billpoint, PayPal, PayDirect, etc. show no signs of going under in future.)
So, the implication I read in whynot's post that sellers who don't have merchant accounts use third party services because they wouldn't qualify for a merchant account is false.
mntmama, you would never be worthy of a bid from me. I am an excellent buyer and you know it.
and who might you be? I don't think I've ever had the pleasure of speaking to you before. Where would I know you from and how? Please do tell. This is curious, as you don't use this ID anywhere else.
posted on May 22, 2001 06:57:33 AM
mtnmama,you and the rest of the sellers can keep bashing away on me all you want. You sellers run your auctions the way you want and I as a buyer will continue to only buy from sellers that appreciate the buyer. Way to many sellers have this I could care less attitude about the buyer and I for one am tired of it.
I wasn't bashing you and I don't see where anyone else has either. We simply voiced our terms and opinions on the subject matter.
I have a lot of repeat business for which I am greatful. It matters not whether I get feedback. I leave it upon receipt of payment. If a buyer feels that he or she doesn't have leave feedback but throws a fit when it's not left first, I have no feelings for that buyer and he/she can take their business elsewhere.
As a seller and bidder I leave appropriate feedback when it's deserved and for no other reason.
As a bidder If I don't get the item as described or am charged excessive shipping, I will leave appropriate feedback.
There are very few times when I have not left any and one of those times it was demanded of me. I don't care for those types of demands.
I hope you understand that when you post in a public forum like this, you're going to get all kinds of responses and not all will agree with you. But AW doesn't allow personal attacks on people and frowns on people even addressing each other.
Comments like
mntmama, you would never be worthy of a bid from me. I am an excellent buyer and you know it.
are personal in nature and one cannot expect not to wonder where you know me from. I don't know you therefore I don't know if you are an excellent buyer. I also don't need people with an attitude bidding on my auctions.
Let's just agree to disagree here. I have nothing against you personally, please don't bring whatever personal grief you have with me into this. I don't even know you!
P.S. Why do you think sellers aren't bidders too? Most of us are.
posted on May 22, 2001 09:31:36 AM
mtnmama, you are the one who started the attacks, so you are the one that needs to calm down. I guess you and the other bad sellers on eBay just can't stand it when a buyer starts to be more selective in who they do business with. I will state my opinions, and if you don't like it I really don't care.
posted on May 22, 2001 09:39:39 AM
I assure you no attack was meant by my stating my viewpoint. Sorry that it didn't sit well with you. I'm very calm.
To say one is a bad seller without having done business with that person is trying to ruin one's reputation in a public forum. We have not stated you were a bad buyer. Why do you continue personal attacks on sellers? You really aren't supposed to address one person over the other on AW. It could lead to suspension.
