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posted on May 22, 2001 02:24:39 PM
SmittyAW, I guess you just overlook mtnmama 's posts as this person gets no warning when addressing me ? This person addressed me first-look at the post! That's okay because I will not be posting on this site anymore. Please cancel my account. It's a sad day when a buyer can't express his viewpoint. I have been told before that this site favors the sellers only, that's why not many buyers post here. I will also avoid sellers in the future who use this service.
The eBay message center is much better anyway, at least the buyer can respond after being unjustly attacked. Close my account or send me the information on how to do so. Thank's again, and take care.
posted on May 23, 2001 02:02:28 AM
Ooo! Suspensions. <Hiding behind my desk>
Whats the difference with a merchant account and paypal or third party payments. Hmmm... where to begin.
Is a merchant account more expensive? Well it does require either software or a terminal. Rates? Amex and Discover are ridgid. Can you take Amex and Discover w/ PP?
Ummm... no. American Express is pretty sizable as is Discover. Our Visa/MC processing rate is a little cheaper long run than PP. We pay our 2.35% discount rate. We pay a .25 batch closure fee. We do NOT pay a whats it .30? w/ PP PER transaction fee. These fee's are we are a business are a non-issue as they are tax deductible be it processing fee's, eBays fee's even our webhosting, shop cart, secure server etc...
The BIG differences in third party payment and having a merchant account are in two areas. First off consumers. Consumers paying a third party merchant for goods will often result should a "dispute be filed with their cardholders bank" result in a declination of even looking into the payment or can result in as harsh penalties as fines for card contract breach or even balances due called in. The contract is between the cardholder and their bank to be used to buy goods DIRECTLY from AUTHORIZED merchants who accept the cards. Again, you cant walk into the bank that ISSUED the card and have them perform a charge to send to say me. They wont do it. If the bank that issues the card wont do it why would any consumer think its just ok for anyone to do it? Buy.com doesnt do it. Barnes & Noble, Gateway etc. dont do it. Its ALL NEW TERRITORY and thats a PROBLEM. PayPal is breaking new ground, I give em' credit they got guts. This doesnt however mean that I am going to give them carte blanche in purchase control over our business or our clients.
I know nothing of ProPay. What I do know is we have a 300+ page book that basically says what our rights and cardholders rights are and just about every possible circumstance that can and DOES happen and how they are handled... Our rights, their rights.
People make me laugh sometimes. They get all yippie when PayPal announced fee's and chargebacks etc. Chargebacks are the least of the issues at hand. They happen. Stolen cards happen, a seller cant expect some poor slob to pay for something because someone stole or they lost their card. It happens. However, in case of things like stolen cards "we are in the loop". Our bank, the cardholders bank, the card processor and authorities. WE can file charges, we are IN the loop. The fact is when you as a business especially one that sells volume you are going to get problematic people. A merchant account for ANY business assuming one doesnt get duped by the card processor they sign with (There are lots of great ones, lots of bad ones) offers both YOU the seller not only MORE protection and control over your business... You have an ALLY with a REAL BANK and a REAL card processor and CONSUMERS rights are fully in place as are yours.
Its like I said... Would you eat at a restuarant that says "If you die, get botchilism, food poisoning, slip on the floor, choke, get electrocuted you agree to NOT hold us libel"... and sign right here on the dotted line. This is essentially what waiving libel is. We dont waive libel any business that does is simply A. A target and B. Stupid.
Lets take another circumstance. We have a secure server and it formats us nice files we just import into IC Verify (Software) and say GO. It goes out, whacks out the charges and feed's back all sorts of nifty records and reports... Bookeeping is also VERY important when selling online if you do more than $2.5K a year in SALES.
We can do voice validations... We can perform forces if a bank will allow (usually) overdrafts. We can PROPERLY process debit cards.
We can set LIMITERS on processing... So... If our avg sale is never more than say $50 if some shmoo makes a typo and puts in $250 it can FLAG us on it rather than it getting processed and us having to pay a commission based on the $250.
Just a few mind you issues. I have read about peoples third party payment accounts being shut down due to being passed bad cards. Can you imagine Amazon shutting down when they get passed 5 bad cards? Out of business. Or Walmart? Believe me, IF it WERE the best way to go Gateway, Dell and every other business on the face of the net would INSTANTLY be aboard. They realize however several things. Waiving ANYONES claims is A. Wrong and B.Dangerous. That the fee's they pay now to a card processor are tax deductible just as PP say would be... So there is no MONETARY benefit really, its peanuts. They CONTROL their business and DONT put the consumer in any form of conflict with their bank contracts.
Lets take a look at it a WHOLE different way. Legitimacy.
Our merchant account requireed we disclose 2 years back taxes, 2 years full financial disclosure, credit references, point of sale references, consumer testimonials, banking references, contracts and then some.. They even come in and take photos of our offices and inventories. Thats done for the CONSUMERS and THEIR BANKS protection as well as PROVING to OTHER banks and the card processor the businesses LEGITIMACY. Very important if you want to "stay alive". Having our merchant account for example opened up literally hundreds of opportunities for us with other online points of sale.
With say PP some guy can open 10 bank accounts at 10 different banks, get some free ISP's or pay, email addys whatall and go fleecing the public. Sure paypal will probably catch em', maybe not. But when YOU go to YOUR bank and say "HEY! I got fleeced! and they go to work at your dispute the FIRST THING thats going to happen is they are going to say: You paid via this service online". THEY ARE THE MERCHANT NOT the person you BOUGHT FROM. The service whips out its user agreement which had the consumer or seller for that matter sign off on arbitration of dispute and libel". Some banks will say, oh well... Some banks will go HOLD ON... Thats a breach of cardholders contract. you however WONT find many favorable saying "Oh by the way here's your money".
There are many many facets of growth, legitimacy, protection and then some when it comes to electronic money transfer. Credit cards exist as a SAFE (as long as you dont breach the card contract), FAST method of payment.
MONEY is the game. Banks make money, PP makes money.
SAFETY was a DRIVING factor in cards for mail order and easy commerce growth.
Convenience... Thats the drug. I dont have the money, I'll use credit or this way is just simple.
With say PP the game is the same except for the fact that the RIGHTS factor is basically transferred to the third party payment service. Your bank might not appreciate that since in case of credit its THEIR money and THEY made a contractual agreement with you and you tossed THEIR rights aside.
Ask yourself this... If eBay all of a sudden tomorrow went away (fortunately its the best site on the net so it wont) would PP or for that matter ANY of the payment services survive? They would need to TOTALLY re-invent themselves basically into Cybercash, a REAL card processor. Again.. PP is not a bank nor a card processor, they are the MERCHANT.
Signed: WhyNot!
posted on May 23, 2001 06:10:12 AM
What's really sad about this whole thing is the blanket assumptions that are made about people, kind of like the one that started this thread.
"I won't buy from sellers who don't leave feedback first."
Many good reasons for this being impractical were already given.
"I won't buy from sellers who use AuctionWatch."
So, anyone who uses AW for image hosting and/or auction launching is now a "bad" seller? Just because someone doesn't like some of the posts here? Right.....
"I won't sell to buyers who don't have feedback of at least 10."
"If you don't pay me within 10 days, I'll leave negative feedback."
I think these are examples of some of the attitudes that touched off these newbie threads. And I also feel that it unjustly discriminates against new buyers. But that's also no reason to retaliate.
After all, if buyers start refusing to do business with sellers who: use services that are generally associated with automated checkouts like AW, Andale, or whoever else; use message boards that contain posts the buyer deems offensive; don't leave feedback first or perhaps may not leave it at all; have loud offensive wallpaper in their auction ads; use yellow font on a black background; etc., they won't find anyone to buy from at all.
And if more and more sellers start using threats in their TOS, sales might fall down and have a hard time getting back up.
posted on May 23, 2001 06:28:54 AM
Are we looking for the word Troll here?
As an aside, I have no TOS in my auctions, except for payment options. I'm pretty flexible and would never intentionally gyp anyone out of feedback. But I will not be bullied into leaving it.
For the record, I lost a lot of money on a bad seller when I first started. I've been with ebay almost 3 years now and have not let it sour me at all. I still bid on auctions, but I check (read) all of the feedback first. If there are negatives, I decide if they were truly deserved or not. I see too many new people leaving negatives after a few days of auction closing because they just don't understand auctions.
It's a knee jerk reaction with new people. They don't understand how the operation works
and rarely bother to find out. They don't realize that online auctions are built on trust. Most of these folks would be better off not using the services.
posted on May 23, 2001 07:33:14 AM
I always leave feedback when I receive payment. It's just easier for me that way. Anyway, I wanted to drop some emails to recent buyers that hadn't left me feedback yet because my feedback number was 666, and has been for a couple of days. I just don't like that number. umm talk about being paranoid.
