posted on June 1, 2001 09:45:21 AM new
goldenclutter,
I simply stated my opinion. To me morality is doing what is right and I believe it is wrong to charge outrageous handling fees. I believe anything over $1.00 is wrong and I refuse to charge my customers "over the top" amounts just so I can make a bigger profit.
Yes the bubble wrap and "peanuts" cost me, but I expect my profit to come from the sale of the item and not from the buyer by charging a ridiculous handling fee.
I am very honest and here is an example of what I consider to be morally right. I mailed a package to a customer using overnight mail. Well, she didn't get it until three days later so I went to the post office and they refunded the entire amount I had spent to send it. I called her personally and told her I am refunding her postage, all of it, which is $10.00. I could keep the money and she would never know, but why should I? It cost me nothing to mail it as I didn't have to use any packing materials.
I believe the practices I use in selling my products give me the good reputation I have earned from those who buy from me.
posted on June 1, 2001 10:17:02 AM new
Kellco, we all have our opinions and all tend to justify our own actions, I guess I am morally evil and will go to hell where all my profit minded friends are. Who wants to join me and have a party with all the profits we are making from our shipping?
posted on June 1, 2001 10:32:12 AM new
I thought the topic was "shipping fee complaints!", not tax deductions, where I should work, how I form opinions or even that I have an opinion. Or is my opinion so important to all of you that you have to cut me down for it?
This has gotten so far off topic it's not funny.
I know what tax deductible is and I also know the cost of doing business. Neither give me the right to gouge my customers with excessive shipping costs!
If people want to tell me I'm not living in the real world, or that I'm not too disabled to work, or that I should travel 3 hours for a .50 a package job, that's fine with me. But do not tell me I don't know how to run a business, because I've run one most of my life and have been successful at it.
I swear there must be a rash of PMS (for both male and female) going on or the calendar's wrong about the full moon because some folks need to take a course in common sense, reading and how not to insult others when posting! I dislike being on the defensive and that's what you folks put me on.
If people want to get padded shipping in your auctions, great! Eat it up! Profit from it! But don't expect to get repeat business, because the norm is once burned, twice shy for at least semi-intelligent people. That's not saying of course that you have even semi-intelligent people bidding on your auctions, but for the benefit of the doubt.
As I said previously, a 50 cent handling charge is no problem, but the problem lies and where I believe IMO that you're cheating your customers is when you charge $5 for a .76 stamp! (You in general, not pointing fingers at anyone here at all)
I guess no one here has ever heard of overhead, have you? That's when you pay the costs of operating a business, right? None of you have that? You want your customers to cover it fully?
I think I'm going to run an auction that says the high bidder pays a percentage of my electricity, phone, ISP, new shoes, gas, toilet paper, food, dog food, cat food, gas for my kid's cars in case they go to the PO for me, soap for a shower, laundry detergent and anything else I can muster in there. The handling charge for this $10.00 item? $50.00. Yes this is a bit extreme, but when you think about it, $5 on a $1 item is also extreme.
For the record, I have nothing against power sellers, nothing against store owners (I was one) nothing against people with disabilities, nothing against people getting their first job at a carpet plant, nothing against people charging minimal handling fees, nothing against people who tell me I'm pulling their legs because they don't understand my posts, people that don't understand the word padding and need an explanation over and over, (one even wanting one from ebay), and nothing against people who think they know it all.
For the record everything I have said and will continue to say is, once again for those that refuse to understand, my opinion
escandyo "Your condition didn't seem to make any difference at the time, nor does it seem to make any difference with all the errands you have to do.
When did you get your medical degree and how well do you know me? Have we met recently? Are YOU my doctor? Tell me please, because you seem to know so much! How many errands do I do a day? How many auctions am I currently running? When you can answer those questions, come on back and tell me that it makes no difference, OK?
That's all I'm going to say in this thread as it's gotten to be a really nasty slamming one from people who I don't even know. Wow! You people are vicious!
posted on June 1, 2001 12:02:34 PM new
So how many of you 'morally' correct people buy something at a garage sale for $1.00 and turn around a re-sell it for much much more??
Do you morally trot over to the garage sale person and give them some of the money???
Do you tell the buyer that making more than 100% profit is morally wrong and they can have it for $2.00??
Or do you keep all the profit you made??
If you don't---with the definition of morality that is bloviating on this thread---it appears some of your morals are bent to fit the situation.
I do not PAD my shipping with outrageous handling costs----but I do not give away postage costs--and I value the time and effort I expend in insuring the item is well wrapped.
You shouldn't take things so personally. In a discussion like this, folks are gonna disagree- and folks are gonna try to find flaws in the merits of another person's position. It's part of a spirited debate.
But I don't understand why you keep on raising issues to support your position, and when others point out what they believe to be flaws in your logic, you complain: "Off topic!!"
You did it after you raised the disability issue. You did it again when you raised the tax-deductability issue. Here's what you said:
**********
Now back to the topic of padded shipping!
I have a question for all of you that think I'm wrong in my statement that padding shipping is wrong. Do you file taxes for overhead? That means supplies, postage, computer, telephone, etc? I do which means that I'd be charging my customers for something which is tax deductible for me. That's unfair in my estimation.
**********
YOU brought up tax deductability as an issue re: shipping/handling charges. And when others point out the (in my view) obvious flaw in that argument, you complain:
****
I thought the topic was "shipping fee complaints!", not tax deductions, where I should work, how I form opinions or even that I have an opinion. Or is my opinion so important to all of you that you have to cut me down for it? This has gotten so far off topic it's not funny.
******
Sorry, but you made the issue fair game.
Then you complain:
*************
Does this explain my position better? I think it's wrong because it's my opinion. No definition needed.
***********
Well, that's sort of a self-fulfilling argument, isn't it?
Vicious? No. Nobody has been vicious here.
I'm happy to debate an issue on the merits. You keep trying to turn it into something personal, which it isn't (for me, anyway).
posted on June 1, 2001 01:08:39 PM new
Show me a person who believes it's morally wrong to charge above the exact packaging material costs, and I'll show you a person who has never gone a day without food; I'll show you a person who never had to struggle to get food on the table. It's easy to be generous with your free labor when you have ample money, but let's hear you cry hallalulah when you're low on cash and have kids to feed.
Receiving fair value for your labor is not morally wrong. It is however morally wrong NOT to receive fair value for your time because you are putting your worth to that of dirt.
posted on June 1, 2001 04:27:17 PM new
Well Steve, my logic may have flaws, but my opinion still counts, flaws or not. The only reason I brought up disability was because easttown did. She claimed she was disabled which to me meant one of many excuses why she couldn't pack her own, yet she works so many hours. I don't care what kind of disability she has, yet someone here took the time to tell me I was running errands and doing all this stuff and how could I dare with "my" disability, one she or he knows nothing about.
I didn't feel attacked until she or he posted. I felt they were overstepping bounds. No one hired this poster to be my employment agency and no one hired this poster to be my physician. He or she made it way too personal for my tastes.
It doesn't bother me that people don't agree with me. You see, I read other's opinions and mull them over and if I disagree I say so and go on. This crowd hovers, similar to vultures over roadkill. They don't go on. They pick and pick until no one wants to post anymore.
Now if I've bothered anyone of them with my opinions, I'm truly sorry. It seems you're the only one who thinks like I do when it comes to making things personal and yes, they are vicious. Sit back and look at the posts as if they were aimed at you. You'll understand.
No more padding discussions for me, but I found out who I would never buy from! LOL!
PS quickdraw, been there done that. Have gone without food so my kids could eat. I don't think a few cents on shipping is going to solve those kinds of problems. Changing jobs solved mine.
[ edited by mtnmama on Jun 1, 2001 04:29 PM ]
posted on June 1, 2001 04:36:57 PM new
I charge a standard 'approx.' US$10 above actual postage cost on all my items, but I don't actually spell it out as I'm about to, I just tell'em that 'some' of the money goes toward handling.
I say aprox. because I often over charge a little because I go up the next weight bracket in my calculation if I think it's marginal.
I can estimate the postage before I pack because I use several sizes of standard boxes.
That money is partly for packing materials and, just in case you think it's fee avoidance let me tell you I pay my grandma to pack the boxes {.{I don't pocket the money}.} But I make her work very hard for your packing dollar.
She has used as much as US$1.00+ on packing tape alone (1 porcelain tea set)
Rigid foam boxes cost US$1.80 - US$3.00 each. Bubble wrap US$0.50 - $1.00
Thin particle/ mdf/ chip board cladding on foam box US$0.60
Phone call to customs sometimes avg./item US$0.03 - $0.04
Fax to customs nearly every time US$0.11
All wrapped up in thick brown paper because my customers are important to me and I like to demonstrate it to them. US$0.15.
No charge for genuine epson ink to print out label with name, no charge for 'fragile' stickers. No mention of pens, disposable blades for cutting, petrol to post office or phone call for credit card authorisation etc.
MUST I spell it all out. Is that being deceitful?
That means that my poor old grandma gets to work for under US$4.00 per hour for her packing because I charge her a little rental for the corner she uses in our laundry to do her thing in. But don't worry I'm not too soft on her just because we're related, I make her throw in delivery to the post office in her own time in my car. She gets to drop off 2 at a time, it's easy on her and besides she says she doesn't mind because she loves me…It's not like I'm ripping her off..
I don't tell the customers that my Granny is getting some of the money. Is that being deceitful? You see I think some of them get upset when they know the post office isn't getting to keep all the money.
It's not a wonder the small business person is being driven out by larger companies. Some people and it seems most, will stand in cue at the large department store, bank, large post office, and grin and bear it but when you try and let your grandma earn a whopping US4.00 per hour !#$%^&*.
If you feel your that right kind of person, can arrange all of that in any quicker time than my grandma & are prepared to work for just a little less, let me know.
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I have been so snowed under by work lately that I have asked my grandma, at no extra charge, to fill in the 2 page customs export clearance application and fax it to customs.
I charge her next to nothing for rent, and she doesn't even appreciate the ALMOST US$4.00 per hour I'm paying her. It's not quite $4.00 because I charge her a nominal amount for electricity she uses in the laundry. I should make her use a 25W light but she reckons it's too dark in there, personally I find it romantic working by the ample moonlight which comes in through the large window.
Can you believe the ungrateful old b%^&# is complaining that an extra 10 minutes of her life is being waisted. For all the money I pay her you'd think she could throw in a little effort to fill in a customs form.
Every time I get my Porsche serviced, the dealer throws in delivery and even picks me up and drops me off
And that's got nothing to do with the money I spend, it's the principle.
posted on June 1, 2001 07:29:36 PM new
magazine guy, yep you got it, my name begins with an S and how could one forget a 1968 Javelin, red with white racing stripes at that!
posted on June 1, 2001 07:38:50 PM new
I have been charging actual shipping charges, but have added, in my auction listing, a handling charge which is separate from the shipping charge. Out of 27 items sold I have had 1 complaint. I don't go outrageous on my handling charge, just enough to cover envelope/box and something for me.
posted on June 1, 2001 08:50:30 PM new
I don't see a problem with adding handling charges-as long as they are reasonable. I use bubble wrap and other packing material which I have to buy. Handbags and shoes-I stuff with tissue paper-and have to buy some of my boxes. I don't see why I shouldn't be able to cover these expenses. I own a retail store and I can tell you that every package I get-I'm charged at least $2.00 over what the actual charges are.
On the otherhand-as a buyer-not long ago I made two purchases-they each cost .75 to mail and were in a padded - not bubble-envelope. Not even a piece of tissue paper. I was charged $4.95 shipping. That's excessive and I would never do that.
Question-Is every newbie here called a troll? Everyone has to make that first post.
posted on June 1, 2001 10:40:16 PM new
Welcome Sara!
Regarding the troll thing-- I don't think the the original post was a troll. Regardless, this topic (handling charges) pops up regularly around here, and nobody ever convinces anybody to change their views.
There was a time here at AW where things were pretty nasty, and anyone who rocked the boat was vilified as a "troll." Things are better now, I think your views and the views of other new posters will (for the most part!) be welcomed!
posted on June 2, 2001 05:13:54 AM new
Welcome, Sara!
I can't speak for the person on page 2 who first brought up the word troll regarding the original poster. Only for myself.
We've had a recent run of new posters who seemed to like to stir things up, get people mad at each other, etc. A few of those people were even suspended within days of registering because they got really antagonistic and ignored repeated warnings from the Moderators to tone it down.
While the original poster here wasn't especially harsh or antagonistic, as magazine_guy said, we've seen this topic come up so often it's sickening. I suppose it's possible that the poster never saw one of the shipping threads before, but it's highly unlikely as we've had even more of them lately, it seems to me anyway.
So, from my perspective, someone who brings up a subject that's already been beat to death in the last couple of weeks, then disappears when the fur starts to fly, (originator hasn't been seen since page 1), just might have started the thread to watch people go at it some more.
Of course, if I'm wrong, my apologies to the original poster (if you're still lurking somewhere).
posted on June 2, 2001 06:10:41 AM newI can deduct the cost of shipping supplies on my tax return therefore it is immoral to charge my customers for this" (not a direct quote of anyone in particular...just a paraphrase of comments made over the years on this subject).
Do you really believe this? This isn't meant in a sarcastic manner, I'm genuinely curious as to whether you're serious or not.
posted on June 2, 2001 07:53:57 AM new
Thank you very much for the welcome. I've seen that troll thing on every message board I've ever read-seems some people have way too much time on their hands.
I thought I would be considered one because I registered the same day I posted my first message-actually within minutes. Fact is, though, I've been reading these boards for a few months and have been using AW for my auctions-but under my Ebay name. For personal reasons, I didn't want to post under the same name. I cannot believe how much I've learned by reading and am even more stunned by how much I did not know about listing! I'm very small potatoes and didn't have the need to post-certainly didn't have any advice to give. Then I came upon a very strange buyer and needed some advice. I got very few answers - the ones I did get were very helpful - and I thought it was because everyone thought I was a troll.
On the shipping, just the other day I spent over $100.00 at Office Depot on shipping supplies. I can't understand why anyone thinks it's wrong to try to cover that expense with a very small fee added to my shipping.
Now to prove how new I am-here's what is probably a very dumb question. Where can I find a list of zones-and how do you know what the shipping rate will be before you know who buys? Isn't it different for different states?
posted on June 2, 2001 09:27:23 AM new
Dubyasdaman....just in case your question was if I believed the philosophy expressed in the quote I gave in my post (about tax deductions and immorality)..
NO!! My post was to show how flawed I thought that position was. But I do think there are people out there who voice this argument in all sincerity...I just have a hard time understanding how they can believe it.
(added a smiley because the written word sounded harsh and angry and that was not how it was intended)
posted on June 2, 2001 09:39:12 AM new
The Zone thing for shipping in the US doesn't apply to First Class and Priority Mail (up to 6 pounds)- it's a flat rate based on weight regardless of where it's going in the US. Since that's all I use, It's pretty easy to estimate what my shipping will be for a particular piece. (As I said, I just charge a flat $4 s/h for most of my items, anyway).
UPS shipping is based on distance and zones. I don't use 'em, but I think they are cheaper for some heavier items. USPS Media Mail may also go by zones, not sure as I don't use that either.
(I thought this was SO neat a few years ago when I discovered it, I went bit overboard, I guess....the local postal carrier sometimes comes to me when the post office needs PM supplies!)
Steve
[ edited by magazine_guy on Jun 2, 2001 10:23 AM ]
posted on June 2, 2001 10:03:44 AM new
Magazine Guy---you must not ship very heavy things via Priority mail.
At the 6 lb level---the Zones do come into effect. At 6 lbs--Zone 1,2,3 are $7.90, Zone 4 is $8.10, Zone 5 is $8.15, Zone 6 is $8.25, Zone 7 is $9.50 and Zone 8 is $10.35
5 lb is the last weight that has the same amount in all Zones and that is $7.55
The Priority flat rate envelope is charged at 2 lbs even if it weighs more as long as it fits into the envelope
You're right- I seldom ship things over 6 pounds; I'd forgotten about the variable rate on PM over 6 lbs. I edited my post above.
On the flat rate PM envelope-- oddly, under the current rate structure, you can send something under a pound for less in a PM box, than in the PM flat rate envelope (3.50 vs. 3.95).
posted on June 2, 2001 12:24:20 PM new
My message is not directed at any particular poster, but this quote sort of summarizes the initial question, to me:
"Why do buyers complain so much about paying an extra $2.00 shipping to a small volume seller (on a BARGAIN purchase), when big companies like the USPS and eBay Premier charge OUTRAGEOUS shipping fees???"
1. Probably because they DON'T BUY from those who charge outrageous shipping fees. Very likely they WON'T buy from them for that very reason.
2. Who says it's a bargain? It's not a bargain if the handling charge neutralizes the "savings." Or, what looks like a "bargain" to you may look like "regular price" to them.
3. Probably because they don't understand the logic behind why the seller feels the need to charge a handling fee. If buyers completely understood the seller's point of view there would probably be fewer complaints. (But that isn't very likely to happen.)
4. Many buyers have a "smart shopper" mentality, which often means buying the item for the least cost to them. I, for one, refuse to buy from mail order companies with highly inflated shipping costs. Instead, I buy from their competitor who charges more reasonable shipping, or I buy locally for no shipping, or... I do without.
Most smart shoppers plan to keep as much of their money as they can. They also would know that it's the total cost that matters... so if the widget cost $10 and the shipping cost $15, it's still a better deal than a local widget that cost $30. But sometimes people forget to add up all of the little costs in the fine print, when bidding or making their decision to purchase... so then when they see the total bill they feel like they've been hoodwinked by the seller. This is probably part of why some buyers complain about the shipping and handling fees charged by some sellers.
Usually, only a very small percentage of people bother to express their opinion, whether positive or negative. Most buyers "vote with their feet." So every one who complains represents more who are also dissatisfied. (I don't know the statistical formula for this phenomenon -- if there is one.) If you as a seller, are getting a LOT of complaints, that might be a "wake up" call for you.
This has been an educational thread to read.
Personally, I don't care what any other seller here does, I'll do what feels right for me, business-wise.
Violetta
(Not known by this nickname anywhere but here.)
I re-read your post and immediately understood your intent. I'm very sorry for the mis-interpretation. Actually, when I read it the first time I thought a different poster has written it. Had I bothered to read your name before the quote I would have realized right away what you meant. You always seem to be on the "right" side of a debate.
posted on June 2, 2001 01:46:49 PM new"Who says it's a bargain? It's not a bargain if the handling charge neutralizes the "savings."
Of course it's not a bargain if the handling charge neutralizes the "savings." No one said it was. If you'll reread my post, you'll see that I characterized a "bargain" as TOTAL PRICE (bid plus shipping charge) lower than you can get anywhere else
"Or, what looks like a "bargain" to you may look like "regular price" to them."
I'm talking about items with SPECIFICALLY KNOWN or GENERALLY ACCEPTED retail values. Any new, widely available item with a suggested retail price (or "list price" ) has a specifically known retail value. (This excludes new items in **short supply** like Playstation 2 was last Christmas.) Any used or antique item that's "common" (as opposed to "rare" or "hard-to-find" ) has a generally accepted retail value (i.e. can be appraised, since it's common enought for market value to be determined).
So what looks like a "bargain" CAN'T look like "regular price". A new widget that lists for $29.95, sells in your local store for $26.95-$29.95, and sells at Amazon (or any other online discounter) for $20.95-$23.95 plus $3.95 shipping.....that you buy on eBay for $9.99 plus $5.00 shipping (even if the seller packaged it himself and sent it media rate for $1.30---"padding" it with a $3.70 handling fee which just might keep him from selling at a loss)---IT'S STILL A BARGAIN. It's a bargain if it costs $4.99 plus $15.00 shipping, and it's a bargain if it costs $19.99 plus $1.30 (actual postage) shipping because it's cheaper than you can buy it elsewhere.
Ironically, the buyers of the items that are rare/hard-to-find/in-short-supply will GLADLY pay a reasonable handling fee to the seller for safe packaging/shipping.
posted on June 2, 2001 06:00:27 PM new
If everyone listened to mtnmomma, I'm sure 80% of businesses would close their doors and millions of out of job workers and CEOS would be fighting for the few remaining jobs. Seriously, isn't that the most pathetic advice anyone has heard? The way to make a company profitable is A) raise prices, and/or B) lower expenses. Fighting for those extra pennies is what good companies do to survive. Tough times force owners to buckle down and operate smarter. But mtnmomma just says, "look for another job!" lol.
Moderators are you going to let the personal attacks continue? Please see the latest comment by quickdraw29? We had already been told not to address fellow posters, but I guess he didn't see that.
[ edited by mtnmama on Jun 2, 2001 09:11 PM ]
posted on June 2, 2001 10:32:50 PM new
I don't feel that was a personal attack. Your comments were being addressed. I belive it's OK to say that a comment sucked, but not the poster.
Who wants to join me and have a party with all the profits we are making from our shipping?