meridenmor
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posted on June 7, 2001 04:48:56 PM new
Today we received a neutral feedback because we do not accept PayPal. We have had this customer's check less than 48 hours and were preparing to ship tomorrow, even though our policy stated in our auction is that all checks must clear before shipping. But he states in the feedback that we have had his check for 10 days. His reply to our email about this was flippant; in his opinion, any seller who does not take Paypal deserves only a neutral feedback, and he just blew off the lie about the check, saying that neutral feedback is not harmful. Of course, we disagree, and feel that he is smearing our reputation unfairly. Is there anything that we can do about this irresponsible behavior, other than block his future bids on our auctions, which we intend to do in a New York minute once we have shipped his purchase and the transaction is officially over? Can we suggest to eBay that there should be some kind of censure on their part for this kind of behavior. Perhaps buyers should not be allowed to leave feedback until they have received their purchase.
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kengraham
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posted on June 7, 2001 05:05:02 PM new
It is short sighted on his part to leave feedback before receiving the product. If you didn't say you took PayPal in your auction description, he had no reason to expect it, and thus no reason to post a neutral.
Respond to his feedback with your side of the story clearly and calmly stated, and the damage done by the neutral should be minor.
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redskinfan
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posted on June 7, 2001 05:06:50 PM new
"Perhaps buyers should not be allowed to leave feedback until they have received their purchase."
That bein the case, every seller who conveniently does not ship the purchase could get away without having a mark on their record. Terrific!
As for the paypal thing, to each his own. He must be one hell of a fan....
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breinhold
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posted on June 7, 2001 05:27:03 PM new
that one takes the cake.....i cant believe it!! that means i could leave a neutral saying "wouldnt take payment in rocks". that is so out of line.
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victoria
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posted on June 7, 2001 05:28:20 PM new
Don't take my advise because I would suddenly be a person of my word and hold the widget til the check cleared. Plus a day.
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nefish
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posted on June 7, 2001 05:35:07 PM new
LOL! I'm with Victoria! That is exactly what I would do! 
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Microbes
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posted on June 7, 2001 05:39:30 PM new
It's probbly what I'd do also. They sure can't neg over it
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breinhold
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posted on June 7, 2001 05:49:58 PM new
yes! a neg is no longer an issue!
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packer
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posted on June 7, 2001 06:00:09 PM new
Yup, I'd hold it as long as I could. Heck, with his attitude I'd hold it till he started bugging me, then I'd hold it some more. Then I'd NEG him.
Where do these buyer come from anyway? Whats his feedback look like?
geesh!
packer
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kidsfeet
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posted on June 7, 2001 06:25:08 PM new
I got one of those a few months ago as well.
Sigh. Oh well. Not much you can do about it, it is bound to happen from time to time.
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mrspock
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posted on June 7, 2001 07:01:08 PM new
ok nobodys going to like this but....
I don't see the big deal about nuetral's they are just that not good transaction not bad transaction but OK.
The buyer felt he didn't have a good experaince becouse he had to go to the trouble of mailing you a check.
I don't see his feedback as being out of line
to neg him would in my opion be totally out of line he held up his end of the deal and paid as per your requirments in a resonable time
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whynot
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posted on June 7, 2001 07:02:01 PM new
We had this happen to us as well. Buyer incisted on PayPal and we simply will not use the service until paypal comes clean and puts out a bill of consumer/seller rights and HOW problems are handled. Simply saying "Its being investigated" is ridiculous. Process, time and all that should be clear. In fact the federal government and/or state banking commissions ought be demanding it of these services so at least sellers/buyers have a clue about what they are doing and how problems are managed.
We had a guy INCIST on PayPal, refused to send a check or money order as well as refusing to pay us via credit card direct. We have our own merchant account. He left us negative feedback saying we did not take paypal. I emailed eBay and they removed the feedback and did NOT remove the negative we placed on his account. We basically figure it this way... If someone is INCISTING on paypal payment then thats a good suspect of someone trying to pull a number on us.
We discussed this whole scenario at some length with eBay reps as well as discussing it with 2 banks, our card processor and ultimately we were refferred to our states AG and banking commission.
LOTS of interesting things here.
First off, more than likely you are going to see "paypal" banners disappear from eBay. eBay can restrict this if they so choose. As damage is done to eBay business due to the external payment service they can remove references to it should they so choose. This was already a known item. They cant restrict people from using external services but they can restrict the advertising of them at the site. My guess is expect it. Anyone using Paypal rather than Billpoint is simply asking for trouble anyways. At least eBay has an attachment to Billpoint so when trouble does arise it doesnt take week after week of emails with no responses. Billpoint MOVES on matters as it effects eBay direct. PP moves slow from what I have read about em'. Obvious reasons, they say they care but in reality if they did they'd have REAL answers to ANY issues that arise and not keep the affected parties in the dark while they sit there earning interest probably figuring 50% of the problems will have people just go away.
I've said it before... For every 1 user you'll see in places like AW complaining about PP issues I'd bet there are 10 times that number that dont know AW even exists.
Anyhow... Interesting enough was the talk with the States Banking Authority. I was basically asking some questions and the MOMENT I said that "we get emails from paypal saying "you got cash" even though we are not a member of their service and then we must email the buyer saying we dont accept it etc".
The MOMENT I said that the attorney I was speaking with went "stop right there".
They are sending unsolicited mail about OUR sales because a consumer is paying them w/o asking us FIRST if we accept such payment terms. This CAN be taken to task. They have absolutely NO right/business in emailing us at all and if we are NOT a member of their service they have no right at all to accept the consumers payment. In fact, it should be REJECTING the payment as we are not a member so they cant pay us via that mechinism.
In other words they have NO business initiating ANY type of activity with OUR business between our customer and us. Just because they have an agreement with the buyer does NOT mean they should TAKE the buyers money when the seller does is not a member of their service. This literally just came to our attention as we got that negative scant weeks back.
We were informed to take ANY such emails, print them and forward them to authorities, the BBB and encourage others to do same as well as contacting their local legislators on such matters. Its UNSOLICITED and considered SPAM. Futhermore its an external business poking their nose into OUR sales w/o OUR permission to do so. Taking money from a consumer when the seller is NOT even a member is HIGHLY questionable legally. We were also told that they would be speaking about it with the Federal Trade Commission as it doesnt fly. If the person being paid is NOT a member of the service then they CANNOT perform a charge or take money from a consumers account. And they CANNOT send unsolicited mail to sellers saying money is sitting there when said seller is not a user of their service. Thats interjecting themselves into our transactions without our authorization and we were told its fully within our rights to bill the service for our time in dealing with their actions and if we were not to get paid we have every right to file complaints with their state attorney generals offices to get them to cease and decist. It borders in fact on predatory conduct.
When I was informed about this I wrote paypal and not heard a word back. Big surprise there.
Your reputation you cant do much about w/ the feedback. Let eBay know and tell them thats just totally unfair. Sellers set terms of sale at the site not the buyers. As such the buyer is breaching your terms of sale in slandering your feedback (public reputation) simply because you dont use a service that you deem "unsafe".
As to the rest of the folks out there who dont accept the service yet are FORCED to deal with it as users pay them before contacting you the seller to see if you are a member I encourage you to talk to your states authorities and file complaints accordingly with the California authorities and Better Business Bureau.
I have no personal axes to grind with PP, but we are not a member and quite frankly we are tired of dealing with messes they create for us when in fact the buyer's payment should not even be accepted by them when WE are not a member of their service. They have NO business being any part of OUR business with OUR customers unless WE authorize it and we have not. Every time we get a "youve got cash" now its being forwarded accordingly.
Consumers should be taking issue with this as well. They are charging your card or taking your money to pay a seller who is not even signed up with them and thats wrong. When you go to make payment it should instantly say "The member you are trying to pay is not a paypal member.... Sorry".
They are in essence performing a charge for something thats NOT going to ship and at the sametime entering themselves into transactions that are none of their business.
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kudzurose
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posted on June 7, 2001 07:22:15 PM new
meridenmor - if he did not like your TOS, he should not have bid on the auction. I have never negged anyone for anything other than failure to pay (and I always allow them p*l*e*n*t*y of time) but I would seriously consider it in this instance. As whynot stated:
"Sellers set terms of sale at the site not the buyers. As such the buyer is breaching your terms of sale in slandering your feedback (public reputation) simply because you dont use a service that you deem "unsafe"."
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capotasto
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posted on June 7, 2001 07:24:17 PM new
whynot: ". They have absolutely NO right/business in emailing us at all "
I think you have been misinformed. Your customer initiated the contact. And you were not forced to deal with paypal, you could simply tell your customer to cancel the payment.
"Taking money from a consumer when the seller is NOT even a member is HIGHLY questionable legally. "
Your customer offered the money. You can inform your customer you don't want it through paypal.
If you have a beef it is not with paypal, it is with your customer.
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goodbuys2
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posted on June 7, 2001 10:37:07 PM new
I know how you feel. I have over 130 positives and received a neutral feedback last week for a box of balloons that a guy bought. The neutral said, "Difficulty in item performance." When I emailed him to ask about it, he told me that he didn't have enough wind in his lungs to blow up the balloons! He said he tried three times and couldn't blow them up! Ugggghhhh... I could see if they were defective or something, but this wasn't the case.
His order was shipped immediately, and I offer a money back guarantee on anything I sell. Geeeshh, my 7 year old can blow up these balloons.
I almost laughed about it because it was so ridiculous. Sometimes on eBay, you can do everything right and still end up with trouble! You just have to run into that "special someone" I suppose!
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rrsia
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posted on June 8, 2001 01:28:14 AM new
I think I would return the money and not send the item. However, I take paypal, Billpoint, Bidpay etc. Have used them for quite a while and no problem with any of them. I guess I think it's a customers world and it's to my advantage to "make it easy for them". I like the Paypal debit card advantage very much. I wish Billpoint
would operate the same way. The Debit card
lets me get to the money instantly versus
several days to transfer to checking with either paypal or billpoint. If your getting as many request to accept as seems to be indicated there may be a message there. I just think I have to be accomidating to the customer. Some person bids on my item, is in there from the begining, drives it up beyond my imagination and then wants to use Paypal-Mo problem.
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mtnmama
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posted on June 8, 2001 06:07:43 AM new
I would also return his money and not ship the item. Inform him you no longer wish to do business with him and let it go at that. As far as retaliatory feedback, I don't think I'd leave any, but you can respond to your own.
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dubyasdaman
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posted on June 8, 2001 06:33:09 AM new
I think you have been misinformed. Your customer initiated the contact. And you were not forced to deal with paypal, you could simply tell your customer to cancel the payment.
Nope. This is SPAM by definition.
SPAM is: Unsolicited Commercial Email
Is a PayPal "You've got cash!" email unsolicited? Of course it is if you do not have a PayPal account and you haven't specifically told PayPal it's ok to send these emails (solicited them). Your ebaY customers have no right whatsoever to ask PayPal to send SPAM to YOU, which is exactly what they're doing any time they send a PayPal payment to a seller who doesn't clearly state that PayPal is accepted.
Is a PayPal "You've got cash!" email commercial? Of course it is. It's an offer from PayPal to pay you money in exchange for merchandise to be sent to PAYPAL's customer.
Is a PayPal "You've got cash!" email an email? You already know the answer.
There you have it. SPAM through and through.
Sure, you're not forced to deal with PayPal. You're not forced to deal with regular SPAMMERS either. One SPAMMER is just as bad as another.
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naru
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posted on June 8, 2001 06:34:06 AM new
I hate Paypal. They waste my time. I don't accept it and yet they insist on wasting
THEIR customers time by allowing them to pay sellers who do not accept it. Then I have to email the buyer and the buyer has to cancel the payment. It would be very different if Paypal issued funds to the buyer IE sent a check or money order to the seller. But they don't, because then they couldn't play fast and loose with millions of dollars in other peoples money. It is truly beyond my ken why people would entrust their money to an entity that is not a bank and is not governed by banking laws. Now I hear that buyers have the nerve to leave a neutral or negative becuase a seller refuses to opt into this crazy scheme.
AAARRRGGHHH
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downeaster
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posted on June 8, 2001 10:28:46 AM new
I had a similar user who negged me for utilizing Paypal security feature (without which Paypal won't safeguard the buyer) requiring a verified address. He insisted he didn't own a credit card or have a bank account. Then how could he use Paypal??? He repeatedly (and insultingly) emailed me demanding I remove the safeguard. Then negged me saying I "didn't accept Paypal" when my listing said I did. I sent the emails to Paypal and they removed him. I found them to be very responsive. Might help here. Good luck!
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grumpyebayer
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posted on June 8, 2001 10:46:28 AM new
I had a bidder go nuts when I would not ship to an unconfirmed address.
He emailed my other bidders and told them that I was lying about accepting paypal.
I contacted ebay and negged him. Ebay suspended him before he could leave a negative for me.
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kittykittykitty
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posted on June 8, 2001 11:55:27 AM new
mrspock
the thing is, if paypal wasn't stated in the auction as a payment option, the buyer had no reason to assume or expect s/he would be able to pay with that method. so s/he went into it with open eyes, knowing full well his or her buying experience would be 'neutral' regardless of any other factor. that's unreasonable.
kittyx3
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sadie999
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posted on June 8, 2001 12:01:25 PM new
"Difficulty in item performance." When I emailed him to ask about it, he told me that he didn't have enough wind in his lungs to blow up the balloons!
PMPL! There's a nutjob born every minute. His mom or dad is probably a registered eBay user.
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goodbuys2
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posted on June 8, 2001 08:27:14 PM new
Sadie, he sure was a real nutjob!
When I saw the neutral I had to laugh. I was annoyed because of my perfect record having a little blemish, but the whole situation was really kind of funny. My husband couldn't believe it and laughed like crazy. I was so tempted to reply to the neutral (like, "Buyer was unable to blow up his balloons" , but I thought I'd best just leave it go. The worst part was that I checked his prior purchases and he had left similiar stupid neutrals for other sellers. I put this nut on my blocked bidder list. When he emailed me to let me know he had difficulty blowing up his balloons, he typed, "Hope we can do business again." Ugggggggh. Sounds like fun to me.
I still haven't left him feedback, as I'm a seller that normally waits until the transaction is totally complete. I was tempted to neutral him with a "Poor communication" comment, but decided that would be retalitory.
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whynot
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posted on June 8, 2001 11:14:42 PM new
Again, eBay if explained to them proper like will remove items from feedback related to buyers not follwing seller terms of sale.
As to the SPAMness it IS Spam in every sense of the word. In fact I heard another spin on it today. If you as a seller dont accept the services payments filter any mail from them.
So instead of getting a "Youve got cash" you get no email at all. If the user decides to get bent out of shape as 8 days later they still have no goods they are within their rights (had they not waived them) to take out after the service. We are not a member so we dont allow their emails. Simple.
Libel for feedback in fact WOULD fall upon them as they NEVER should have let the buyer issue payment to a non-member. So if Joe Ginsu issues payment, gets nothing as we reject all emails from a service we are not a member of then its perfectly within our right to hold that service libel as they never should have put the buyer (member) or seller (non-member) into the position where that negative feedback (slander) should have occurred. Its not the buyers fault, the service accepted payment. Its not the sellers fault as they are not a member and make efforts to block SpamMail. So who's fault is it? Its the service that should have never taken payment to begin with and due to that failing the seller is slandered and damaged and thus perfectly within their rights to pursue the instrument that made it occur.
As with everything surrounding it, LOTS of grey area and anyone who doesnt see that... Well just a matter of time until the eyes are opened.
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eventer
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posted on June 8, 2001 11:17:52 PM new
Buyer was unable to blow up his balloons
I'm sorry but I'm afraid the devil would have made me respond with something like,
"Buyer unable to finish blow job".
Then I'd have to repent later.
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outoftheblue
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posted on June 8, 2001 11:29:48 PM new
capotasto
>>>If you have a beef it is not with paypal, it is with your customer.<<<
Hogwash! If PayPal didn't condone this kind of behavior by making it possible (encouraging it) in the first place, it would not be a problem.
meridenmor
I have never given a retaliatory feedback but this guy is just begging for a neg. Give him what he's asking for and so richly deserves...
[ edited by outoftheblue on Jun 8, 2001 11:31 PM ]
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kittykittykitty
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posted on June 8, 2001 11:30:19 PM new
goodbuys2,
i started reading your post without looking at who wrote it, and i swear i thought it was a jerry12 post!
kittyx3
edited because i'm tired and ... you know
[ edited by kittykittykitty on Jun 8, 2001 11:31 PM ]
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lucky3bonnie
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posted on June 9, 2001 11:39:05 AM new
I definitely would not complete the tranaction. Just mail his check back. The nuetral is probably just the beginning with that jerk. I also would neg him. Other sellers need to know what they are dealing with. That's what feedback is for. I had a woman bid on one of my auctions and leave a nuetral because I refused to ship the way she wanted. I put exactly the most it would cost in the auction because it was over 5 lbs. and to ask before bidding if they wanted an exact shipping quote. She did not do that. She complained after she won the auction and I offered to let her off the hook and just forget the whole thing. She said no and left me a nuetral after she received her item. I left her a well deserved negative. You can call it retalitory if you want, but I'm sure the next seller will be glad to know how this bidder behaves. I usually leave feedback as soon as payment is received, but I figured I'd have trouble with this one. Glad I waited.
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gs4
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posted on June 9, 2001 12:31:40 PM new
Neg this fool. Some times you just have to go with your feelings.
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