posted on June 7, 2001 04:48:08 PM new
Did a "Buy it Now" on a set of Homer Laughlin Soup Bowls. Sent a money order, and then had to send several emails to the seller to get them to ship my stuff. Got them today and "very good condition" apparently means chips, staining, and almost total loss of platinum trim.
I sent my standard email, this gives them a way out, saying that I recieved the items, but I think they sent me the wrong stuff because this certainly was not what I purchased.
Here is what I received in return:
i dont have any idea what the staining is other than
age and as far as the wear of the platinum goes i
never mentioned these were in mint or perfect
condition and some normal aging and wear is to be
expected when they are old and it isnt mentioned they
are perfect.as far as the chip,they werent chipped
when they left here and i cant be responsible for
damage to items that arent insured.i would be willing
to refund you 1/4 of the cost of the bowls but i dont
consider myself at fault sincew they werent insured
and they werent described as mint or perfect.
regards
The chips were yellow and brown, this certainly did not happen in shipping. I sent another email and said I would not accept their offer of a $6 refund, and to let me know how to return them for a refund or at least refund half of the money. I told them I would go with mail fraud if we did not come to an agreement, here is what I got in return:
I also know what i am doing.i am a fulltime antique
dealer and do it for a living and also sell on ebay
for a living so your threat of fraud charges is boguss
as i know my rights and know the laws in and out.first
off,fraud charges only apply when items are not
received and also when you buy old items under law is
also alot of room for understanding that items arent
in mint condition.i never stated that they were
perfect condition.you must be a pretty sad individual
for throwing a big fit over such a little thing.i will
have more ground to file harrassment or slander
charges against you so i would watch what your
saying.i do sell on internet fulltime as a business
and know all the rules and laws in and out so think
before you speak and accuse.i know what i am doing
alot more than you think you do about the laws and the
antique business.the only right thing for me to do is
send you a lousy $12.00 refund which is half just to
be done with you as i have no time to waste with
someone like you.it is people like you on ebay that
are not willing to work things out only to assuce and
slander and that makes the ebay experience alot less
desirable.i have kept on file you email stating you
would accept 1/2 refund which is what you will get so
if you try to come back later and say you wanted more
i have the proof you accepted 1/2.also you can keep
the bowls even though you said you would return them
for 1/2 your money.sell them and get your other 1/2
back,i am sure you can!I willsay i have never had such
a difficult person to deal with over such a tiny
amount of money.i sell flow blue plates for
$100-$300.each and dont have the complaints i do with
you.i will give you the same feedback you wish to
leave,sometimes its better to keep your thoughts to
yourself and i will unless you decide to voice
yours.your $12.00 will be in the mail tomorrow!
good luck on EBAY,YOU WILL NEED IT BEING RUDE AS YOU
ARE!
REGARDS!
I have two negatives on this account with around 640 in feedback, this time I am not worried about getting a negative, I think I will be happy to take it. She has 400 feedback with 9 negs and 7 neutrals. My fault though, I did not check her feedback before I bid. She witholds feedback until she gets it first and retaliates on everyone who gives her one. I think I will wait to neg her, get my refund first, or give her one when she gets me. Heather
posted on June 7, 2001 05:12:07 PM new
lol..in my last email to her I told her to invest some of her ebay profits in a little education because it took me 30 minutes to decipher what she was trying to tell me.
I don't mind this actually, I don't mind the negative I will get either. I am tired of receiving misdescribed merchandise and I am not going to take it anymore.
posted on June 7, 2001 05:38:16 PM new
It is sad that everyone here remembers me only for my Paypal threads I am mad at them also, a seller got $175 from me, did not ship a thing, and my paypal fraud complaint netted me a whopping $35 back, this isn't my year.
posted on June 7, 2001 05:40:53 PM new
I think you should neg her as soon as you get your refund so that some of those $100-$300 buyers can be forewarned about her idea of good condition. Everyone would see the one she gives you as retaliation and nothing more.
posted on June 7, 2001 06:17:04 PM new
A short statement describing item condition is NEVER good enough! And, it should always be QUESTIONED before bidding.
If an item is described as in "excellent or other" condition, you must state WHY it is in said condition! For example: this bowl is in excellent condition. There are no chips or cracks. There is no glaze crazing. There are no normal utensil marks. No stains. Nothing over highly superficial due to handling or storage over the years. It looks unused.
hcross sorry to hear of your dissapointment. Recently, I sold a set of vintage dinnerware that was in pristine, unused condition. The buyers all wrote me after their shipments arrived, they were shocked regarding the condition! Each said that they would have bid much more [get the whole set] had they known [believed?] my statement regarding condition. Therefore I'm on the flip side of the coin - the very best stuff often suffers because of sellers like the one you encountered!
posted on June 7, 2001 06:33:13 PM new
I buy Homer Laughlin, I buy it for my website and for resale. 99% of it comes off of ebay. My descriptions are excellent and so are my photos.
I bought a very nice rare piece of early Homer Laughlin and received it last Friday. The auction stated it was in "excellent condition with no chips or cracks." They neglected to mention the crazing that had stained 3/4 of it, I paid $80 for it, it would have been worth $200 had it been listed in the proper category and described correctly. Did I throw a fit? You bet I did. I buy a lot and have spend probably $20,000 or more on ebay in the last year.
If a seller states excellent condition, should I try and look into the mind of each seller before I bid? If they say excellent with no chips or cracks, do they really mean it is crazed all to hell and discolored? If they say no chips, should I assume that there will be tiny fleabites all around the rim, or the trim is missing?
At least half of the packages I get have something wrong with them, I got one out of three that was good today.
Am I the buyer from hell? Probably so. I expect to get what I pay for.
I get so tired of the "this is what you get when you buy vintage china." Not true, I have 500 pieces of china right here that is from 50-100 years old, most if it looks new. These came from sellers who were honest in their descriptions. If I had been new and all this happened to me, I would have given up on ebay long ago, but I don't take any crap. Heather
posted on June 7, 2001 06:47:40 PM new
"it is people like you on ebay that
are not willing to work things out only to assuce and
slander and that makes the ebay experience alot less
desirable."
Uh, did you figure out what the translation of assuce is? I am stumped!
posted on June 7, 2001 06:52:13 PM newAm I the buyer from hell... Absolutely not!
I buy expensive Tiffin glass for my collection and it has got to the point that I send out "questionnaires" to potential sellers. If they don't answer my professional questions, I do not bid!
Won a Tiffin bowl a couple of months ago. It was described as "mint." It arrived with all-over fine scratches to the interior,
exterior, and underside. It looked like it was used as a catch-all bowl for car keys etc.! I got my money back from the seller
plus shipping, but they thought I was a crank! They stated "...well, we felt it was in mint condition for the age..." Get it, MINT CONDITION FOR THE AGE!!!!!!
My percentage was approx. 50% unsatisfactory purchases on eBay. It is less now that I use a questionnaire, but my buying has dropped dramatically. Therefore, to answer your question - you gotta ask before bidding regardless of description.
posted on June 7, 2001 06:57:59 PM new
I had a seller like this when I first started buying from Ebay. I bought a pin from her. She sent it in an envelope with no protective packaging of any kind and it arrived crushed. She then gave me hell for not buying insurance. (It only cost a couple of bucks.) Anyhow, I was so upset by her personal slam on me that I didn't buy from Ebay for a year. A while ago, I notice the B**** was Narued. However...I wonder if she's back??????????
posted on June 7, 2001 07:00:27 PM newIf a seller states excellent condition, should I try and look into the mind of each seller before I bid?
Yes, you should. Failing that, ask questions. As was mentioned in a thread a few days ago, what is "excellent" to one person may only be "fair" to another.
I expect to get what I pay for.
Appears you built an "expectation" in your mind & didn't ask questions about the item.
Since you apparently collect it, you should know the problems which can occur or are typical with this type of item & should ask if it's not listed in the description.
posted on June 7, 2001 07:04:56 PM new
I also got a set of 5 plates today, one had a dark Y shaped hairline on the back. I sent that seller the same email I sent the other one. This sellers response was "I check all items very well, I must have missed this, would you like to return them or would you prefer a refund?" I let her off the hook and told her not to worry about it, she was honest enough to tell the truth.
My email to her was not accusatory, they never are. Maybe the next time they sell they will remember what happened with me and try a little harder. Sellers like this ruin it for everyone, what has been gained if a buyer leaves after running across a seller like this?
I admit, I do have some responsibility in this, I would never have bid if I had seen her feedback before the buy it now, but I was excited, and I am now paying for it.
Had to edit all that out, would have identified the seller.
[ edited by hcross on Jun 7, 2001 07:07 PM ]
posted on June 7, 2001 07:17:41 PM new
eventer, much of the time the description states "no chips, cracks, or crazing." What else is there to ask about? A seller certainly knows if the items are really in that condition. If they aren't, well then, too bad for them. I don't have the time to spend emailing all the people whose auctions I win asking them the same question that has already been answered in their auction.
99% of the people I have problems with describe their items that way, that is not a problem of mine, it is their's.
posted on June 7, 2001 07:46:29 PM new
Something about the pieces being in very good condition. That is not the point, she lied, if you will read she said in one of the above emails that I should have purchased insurance and that the items must have been damaged in shipping. I sell enough to know that an item won't chip and yellow/brown within a few days in transit. The rims of the bowls, all the way around, were fleabitten. I could have lived with the trim being missing or maybe even the staining on the back, not the chips and fleabites.
One person she negged has his "me" page dedicated to her, the emails she sent to him were just as nutty as those I got. With that many negatives and neutrals, she obviously has a problem. Apparently, she lies a lot also.
posted on June 7, 2001 07:53:24 PM new
>Got them today and "very good condition"
There seems to be a lot of problems with china products. I'm glad I don't sell them.
Is there a "Acceptable Grading Standard" like there is for coins, stamps, and paper money? The reason I ask is with coins, stamps, and paper money, the terms "good" and "very good" have very specific standards, and both these grades are on the low end of the scale, with Fine, Very Fine, Extremly Fine, About Uncirculated, and Mint State being higher.
A Coin with a grade of good, or very good is a far cry from mint, and (at least with coins) Mint State has 11 grades all by it self. (and some fairly ugly coins qualify for mint state.) Coins are graded on a 70 point scale with 60 - 70 being "Mint State", and Good being 4-6 on that scale. When I see people say something listed as "good" is darn near worn out, well, with coins, that is how it should be listed (or as About Good 3, Fair 2, or Poor 1.)
Of course, these grades pertain to "wear" and any other problems (other than honest wear and tear) are supposed to be mentioned on all but the most worn coins (it is acceptable not to mention *minor* problems with coins grading "good" ). Often a coin in, say Very Fine condition, but with a rim nick, might have a value of Very Good with no problems.
It would seem to me that with as many collectors as there seems to be for china, that there should be an "acceptable grading standard".
[ edited by Microbes on Jun 7, 2001 07:56 PM ]
[ edited by Microbes on Jun 7, 2001 07:57 PM ]
posted on June 7, 2001 07:56:56 PM newHeather, I'm preparing to list some Homer Laughlin on eBay in a couple of weeks. What kind of Homer Laughlin are you interested in?
I collect vintage Fiesta, but have a few of HLC's other pieces I've accumulated over the years and no longer have room for.
posted on June 7, 2001 08:03:26 PM new
microbes, back in 1998 when I first started that is all I bought and sold was coins and currency, I am very familiar with the grading system.
No one wants a damaged piece unless it is something they just have to have or is very rare. Some sellers do you use a standard, I do on my website and on ebay. I have not had anyone disappointed yet, and I have had about 1200 transactions on ebay alone.
brie49, I buy it all. If you are interested in selling off of ebay send me an email at
[ edited by hcross on Jun 9, 2001 01:59 AM ]
posted on June 7, 2001 08:13:23 PM new
hcross I guess I didn't need to go into quite so much detail about the grading standards. My real question was is there a "bible" for grading this material like the ANA / Photograde / Brown & Dunn Grading books for coins, or is it "hit and miss"?
posted on June 7, 2001 08:20:51 PM new
No, I cannot say there really is a standard.
I don't mind you going into detail about the grading of coins, someone might have learned something.
There is so much that people want to know when buying pottery and porcelain, the condition of the metallic trims, the decals or cold paint, crazing, chips, cracks, hairlines, use marks-utensil marks. A lot of sellers don't go into that much detail, but I try to, I like money. Heather
posted on June 7, 2001 08:29:26 PM new
Morgantown, "I thought it was in mint condition considering the age."
That says it all.
Heather, sorry to hear you got burned. Considering the frequency, I would also send out a form letter before bidding, requesting the seller document each and every imperfection. "Very good condition" is meaningless on eBay any more.
Since you seem to be an expert, do you mind if I ask you a question? I've got a set my folks gave me. It's nice but I have no use for it. Right now it's in my storage locker, unlocked. I'm kind of hoping someone will steal it so I don't have to deal with it. The back says:
RC 228 Tropica Japan
Should be around 40 years old. It's in (sorry about this) very good condition. Meaning perfect condition, but I haven't inspected every piece. Is it worth anything, or worth the trouble of selling on eBay?
posted on June 7, 2001 08:40:07 PM new
twinsoft, I wish I were an expert I just know quite a little bit about Homer Laughlin. I did a little searching through my books and on the internet and could not find anything. Is Tropica the china manufacturer or the pattern name? I am thinking it is the pattern name.
If you will give me your email address I will do some checking for you. Heather
Is there any other backstamps besides those you mentioned?
[ edited by hcross on Jun 7, 2001 08:40 PM ]
posted on June 7, 2001 09:05:54 PM new
Mint condition. As someone who once collected coins, the only time I will ever use that term (I sell old glass) is if an item is MIB -- mint in the original box.
I had a nice Depression 5-pc set listed in a pattern difficult to find undamaged (because the pattern itself made it extra vulnerable to chips, fleabites, etc.). Someone emailed me asking if it were in mint condition. No way in hades I'd call it mint. Even tho I didn't find any damage I just didn't feel comfortable guaranteeing there was absolutely none. I frankly thought the question was absurd, and still do. There are plenty of manufacturing flaws in Depression glass (and mold roughness too, a type of mfg flaw I suppose you could call it). Can a piece with mfg flaws be called mint? For some, yes. For others, no.
I tried to explain all that to him. Two days later I got another email from him -- same question. (He must've forgotten or something.) But this time I asked him not to bid on it.
BTW, despite the highly structured and codified grading system for coins, I still think it's incredibly subjective. You buy a Mint coin and when you take it in to sell it, they'll ALWAYS tell you it's AU (About Uncirculated) -- or worse. Major reason why I stopped collecting them.
posted on June 7, 2001 09:32:33 PM new
Even with books ~ seems to be the same story! how many times have I read~ mint and then the description is terrible LOL but it is worse when the description is for very good and comes in looking fair only! I have upped my descriptions to fair to good / good to very good as when I have described as fair ~ people took it as meaning terrible condition! and good condition now stands for fair and excellent condition stands for good as the descriptions are so down graded by one level. I never call a book MINT unless it looks totally unread EVER!
Now, I have received some beautiful books that were described as good! and they were in good condition!
posted on June 7, 2001 10:53:28 PM new
I sell a fair amount of china type items. I list every defect I can find on the piece. Any nicks, chips, cracks, crazing, hairline, missing pt or gold, marks, anything and everything. I will state. Mint. No chips, cracks, crazing marks etc. etc. or Very Good with a minor XXXXX. Then I scan the defect and will say reference scan.
Many of my feedbacks state "item just as described". Anyone selling antiques or collectibles should be listing every defect they can find on the item and let the buyers decide.
I wondered if I was hurting my sales at all by listing the smallest defect, but I have watched two very similar items be up for auction. One MINT and one with some crazing which I scanned. The one with crazing sold for twice the price of the MINT. But two different styles and both customers were in heaven with their purchase.
If I had not mentioned the crazing I would have expected the customer to be disappointed when she received it. However she was very happy and said item better than description. Win win
posted on June 8, 2001 09:25:17 AM new
I blame the buyer in this case. Based on their first email it seemed as though the seller was willing to work with you. YOU then brought up the dreaded mail fraud threat which set the tone for the remainder of the transaction.
posted on June 8, 2001 09:47:45 AM new
Blame the buyer? No way. The ad states no cracks or chips, The seller knew these items where in poor condition. They lied outright.
Glad it's not that, for your sake...