I bid on an item earlier this week that I suspected to be less commonly found than the seller originally identified. Just today, the seller has cancelled my bid, and relisted the item as it should have been described.
Before I bid, I sent the seller a simple inquiry email asking what the markings were on the item. I now suspect the email inquiry I sent him tipped him off to the rarity of the item, giving him the opportunity while the auction was running to do some research (which he should have done before listing the item, IMO).
Seller never answered me on my original inquiry. I took a chance, and then bid on this item.
Now that he's cancelled my bid (the reason was "Explanation: The seller ended the listing early and cancelled all bids" and the auction, and subsequently relisted it new as it should have been described, my previous high bid on the original cancelled auction is there for all the world to see. So, I'm not bidding on the relisting at all unless I happen to get lucky and snipe it at the last minute.
EBay's seller page at http://pages.ebay.com/help/sellerguide/selling-bids.html doesn't describe all of the conditions that a seller can cancel bids and an auction. His reasons for cancellation sure seem shady, and certainly non-justifiable though, to me.
I feel like the seller took advantage of my inquiry email and did some digging of his own after I asked for the markings, AFTER he listed the auction, and decided this item was worth WAY more than he wanted it to go for.
Hey, I thought did the right thing - asking questions before I bid, just like every seller here encourages ... so the lesson I've learned from this is to NOT ask a question on an item I wish to bid on, and keep my mouth shut, and just bid on the darn thing.
Should I report this seller's behavior on this particular auction to safeharbor?
posted on June 21, 2001 07:29:58 PM new
The way I understand it is the item belongs to the seller until the auction ends with a high bidder. One of the options for ending auctions is something like "Item is no longer for sale". Sounds pretty cut and dried to me.
You can't turn someone in for ending his own auction.
posted on June 21, 2001 07:30:37 PM new
This bites for you. But I'm in a devil's advocate mood so here goes.
Let's say you have an item. A piece of pottery. It's got some silly thing on the bottom that doesn't look too important. Something you mention in the auction but not in the title.
A potential buyer asks you a question. The very next email is one from your mom/best friend/neighbor/pick one and it says, "Oh my god you idiot, don't you know that putting the name of that pottery in the title will bring you twice the bids???????"
Ethically, closing the auction early in this instance was not cool. Reportable? To eBay? You might have better luck with God - I hear he actually knows what ethics are.
posted on June 21, 2001 07:31:27 PM new
The seller may cancel his auction at any time as long as he cancels all bids first.
As for you wanting the item for less than it's really worth and begrudging the seller the value - I won't even give my opinion on this.
He doesn't belong with safeharbor. He's done nothing wrong. I hope he gets the value of his item or more.
JMHO
edited to add:
Sadie, "Ethically, closing the auction early in this instance was not cool. Reportable? To eBay? You might have better luck with God - I hear he actually knows what ethics are."
You're not serious are you? If it happened to you, what would you do? Let it run for less money than it's really worth? Somehow, I don't think anyone would do that. There's nothing ethically wrong with him closing the auction and relisting with the proper description. Now if the description turns out to be wrong (because he was advised wrong) he's going to be the loser in the end. If it was right, then why not?
posted on June 21, 2001 07:47:30 PM new
Sooo ... let me see if I have this right:
1. Seller lists item as "X" with starting bid of $X.XX
2. I bid on item after sending an inquiry to him, which he doesn't reply
3. I am the only bidder on this item
4. After 5 days, seller decides it's worth more than he thought AFTER he lists item, and cancels my bid, and cancels the auction.
5. Seller immediately relists item as "Y" with the same starting bid from the original auction of $X.XX.
Seems like sellers can throw up whatever they find, describe it as they believe it to be, and then WHEN the auction is running, decide that it's actually worth more, and cancel the auction and any bids and relist it?
If this was a live auction, no auctioneer would practice this. Imagine, auctioneer holds up item, says it is "X", you think it is "Y", and you bid .... you ask auctioneer to describe markings on it ... he reads it, and then the bidding continues. You win the auction because you believe it to be "Y" when the rest of the audience has believed it to be as described - item "X".
The real auctioneer wouldn't likely stop the auction, consult his price guides (he should have done this beforehand), then cancel your live bid and restart it again. He'd likely follow through with the scenario above.
posted on June 21, 2001 07:55:46 PM new
That's just it: This isn't a live auction.
Here is what eBay has to say about cancelling bids:
To cancel a listing: If there are bids on your item, you will need to end the auction and if you'd like, relist it following steps 1 through 3 below. If the item doesn't have any bids yet, you only need to do steps 1 and 3.
First, it's a good idea to explain why you are canceling. You can add your explanation by going to Adding to your item description. Cancel each bid you have received here. In the 'Your explanation of the cancellation' text box, enter a brief, clear reason. Once all of the bids have been canceled, end your listing here. NOTE: Do this quickly before another bidder has a chance to bid. If you want to relist the item, go directly to your ended item page (find it by searching by your item number) and click "Relist item" which is below the payment and shipping terms.
------------------------------------------
liquid8ter on eBay
[ edited by revvassago on Jun 21, 2001 07:56 PM ]
posted on June 21, 2001 07:56:01 PM new
Disregarding "ebay rules" (which allows one but not the other), and looking at it as only an "ethical" question, I would say cancelling the auction under these circumstances is the equivalent of a bidder retracting his bid because he "found the item elsewhere for cheaper."
I'm not necessarily saying either is so particularly heinous, but they do seem to be on a par to me.
posted on June 21, 2001 08:10:51 PM new
Yep, but there's no reportable offense here at all. Seller may not have even received the email. Seller may be selling it on consignment and the consignee didn't like the opening bid. Lots of things to factor in that we don't know.
Just put seller on your do not bid list and move on with life. It's not even worth the hassle.
If you really have to have the item "right now" bid, if not another will come long in due time.
"If the situation were reversed I doubt you would call it "shady"
If the situation were reversed (bidder instead of seller), it would be called "cancelling a bid and then bidding on another lesser-priced item". AKA "bid retraction", of which eBay has clearly explicit rules and circumstances under which this may be done. Retracting a bid and then bidding on another is a blatant violation.
"It is expecting a lot to ask people to allow you to tell them they are getting screwed and then ask them to sit still and smile while it happens."
You mean to tell me you, as a seller, have NEVER bought something for less than fair market and then either kept it in your collection or resold it for a generous profit?? And that none of the other sellers posting in this thread have also never done this??
So how come sellers are permitted to do the equivalent of this and not have explicit rules apply as well?
Sigh. Seems like eBays' sellers have all of the power and bidders have none. Another example - sellers can have as many neg feedbacks as they can gather in a lifetime as a seller and not be booted off (usually negs from bidders unhappy or un-delivered of product), while bidders now, in a lifetime of bidding on a particular account, may only have 3. Three. For any reason.
PS: The seller is certainly not a newbie. He has over 4500 feedbacks and at least 50 running auctions right now. He certainly knew *what* he was doing.
*not oldfashioned on ebay*
[ edited by oldfashioned on Jun 21, 2001 09:02 PM to rearrange thoughts properly and add the PS: ]
[ edited by oldfashioned on Jun 21, 2001 09:06 PM ]
posted on June 21, 2001 09:02:43 PM new
One of my very first listings was a Gymboree girl's outfit. I knew even less about Ebay then than I do now-yes, that's possible. LOL
It had one bid. That buyer emailed me and told me how I should have listed the item. It was something like apple blossom or close to that. She offered to cancel her bid so I could relist. I did and got lots of bids. I've never forgotten that. Friendly help from a stranger.
posted on June 21, 2001 09:18:01 PM new
Item is not sold till the auction has ended. Seller can cancel the auction.
Pulling of items happens in live auctions - not just ebay. You can send in a mail bid on an item and auctioneer can still pull the item before it comes up for bidding on the floor.
If you can tell that the seller knows what he is doing (by his 4500 feedbacks), you should not have send an email inquiry. You ultimately bid anyway without a response. Should have just done that without the email inquiry.
Also, you apparently are not aware of ebay rules regarding this. First fundamental rule of participating in an auction is to make sure one knows all the rules of the house.
posted on June 21, 2001 10:12:37 PM new
"Pulling of items happens in live auctions - not just ebay. You can send in a mail bid on an item and auctioneer can still pull the item before it comes up for bidding on the floor."
They can also pass items they feel are not being bid high enough. I make note of these auctioneers and make a point of not attending their auctions in the future. Yes it is your item until sold, yes you can pull the auction. Is it right? I don't think so. Certainly not in the spirit of the auctions.
I think poorly of bidders who have retracted bids because they obviously found a similar item for less and sellers who pull auctions because they made a boo-boo in researching and describing are no different. A sellers auction retractions should be posted in the same manner as bid retrations are.
posted on June 21, 2001 10:48:39 PM new
This sellers ethics are no different than anyone elses here.
You buy a book at a yard sale, check it out and your best information is that it's worth $5 bucks. You describe it on ebay as best you know, and it gets bids accordingly.
Before the auction ends, you learn that this book is actually an unusual copy because of blah blah, and you learn the book is actually worth $1,000,000 dollars.
Now what idiot is not going to cancel this auction because it wouldn't be ethical?
Anyone would, and if you say you wouldn't then you're lying.
So now we have determined that our ethics and that of this poor sellers are pretty much the same.
It's the amount money we’d cancel our auction for we wouldn’t agree on.
I'd be unhappy if it happened to me too, but it's not about the sellers ethics.
posted on June 21, 2001 11:17:03 PM new
Though the rule has changed (I think), eBay used to allow all sellers to bid on their own non-reserve Auction listings one time---for cases in which the seller didn't realize the item's full worth at the time he listed it....so it's doubtful eBay would fault this seller for cancelling the bid, ending the auction, and relisting the item. It would be a waste of time to report the seller to Safeharbor.
"... so the lesson I've learned from this is to NOT ask a question on an item I wish to bid on, and keep my mouth shut, and just bid on the darn thing."
Yes, but go one step further: Don't bid your maximum early in the auction. As it stands now, the seller and any other potential bidders can see how much you were willing to pay for the item. Had you NOT bid (putting it on your Watchlist instead), or bid only the opening amount, saving your serious bidding for the auction's end, the item would have attracted little attention and the ignorant seller would have been content to sell at the lower price.
posted on June 21, 2001 11:24:45 PM new
Some claim it would be unethical to bid on the item without asking the question, if you know that the answer should have been included in the description. Trying to take unfair advantage of seller's ignorance, you know.
I say the rules are very clear, both for buyer and seller. Seller can cancel at any time for any reason. Seller can set a hidden reserve, attracting interest from otherwise disinterested bidders. Those seems to disadvantage buyer.
Buyer can ask questions, or not, for any reason. Buyer can hide any interest until the last second. Those seems to disadvantage seller.
posted on June 22, 2001 12:22:20 AM new
Well not to belabor the point but it's not exactly a level playing field.
Ignorant seller doesn't do his research and lists the $1 million dollar book for $5. Realizes his mistake a day later and cancels the auction. Fine with eBay.
Ignorant buyer doesn't do his research and bids $1 million dollars for a $5 book. Realizes his mistake a day later, and retracts the bid. NOT fine with eBay (though admittedly, without any real consequences).
Obviously, in both cases, it makes good business sense to go ahead and cancel/retract, and if both actions were "eBay legal" I wouldn't find fault in either one. The only reason I would say it's "unethical" for the seller to cancel is because the bidder does not have the same privilege.
posted on June 22, 2001 04:56:14 AM new
I've ended one auction early, thanks to a bidder who alerted me that an item I had up was not what I thought it was. It wasn't worth more or less, just had a specific function I wasn't aware of or had misunderstood. My description was way off the mark and too wrong to fix, I had to relist it.
I cancelled all bids and e-mailed each bidder to tell them why.
That's what I would hope a seller would do for me, just tell me why my bid was cancelled, it's just polite.
Until the auction closes, it's their item. I've had yardsellers take something away from me because it wasn't meant to be sold. That's OK. It's still their "stuff". Just be civil about it. It's all I ask.
[ edited by victoria on Jun 22, 2001 04:58 AM ]
posted on June 22, 2001 05:42:15 AM new
You stated the seller RELISTED the item with the SAME STARTING BID as the original auction. So you still have the oppourtunity to aquire the item for the exact same price.
The seller CHANGED the description NOT the price. So why do you think the seller has decided the item is worth more?
Oldfashioned-
"1. Seller lists item as "X" with starting bid of $X.XX
5. Seller immediately relists item as "Y" with the same starting bid from the original auction of $X.XX."
[ edited by greatlakes on Jun 22, 2001 06:19 AM ]
posted on June 22, 2001 05:43:33 AM newIgnorant buyer doesn't do his research and bids $1 million dollars for a $5 book. Realizes his mistake a day later, and retracts the bid. NOT fine with eBay (though admittedly, without any real consequences).
Perfectly fine with ebay. Any buyer can retract a bid. It goes on your record, and only if you have an abnormal amount of retractions will they sometimes warn you. I had a bidder with over 12 retractions in 2 weeks. I canceled her bid and told her why. ebay did nothing. They didn't care. So it's not "not fine" with them.
Seems like eBays' sellers have all of the power and bidders have none. Another example - sellers can have as many neg feedbacks as they can gather in a lifetime as a seller and not be booted off (usually negs from bidders unhappy or un-delivered of product), while bidders now, in a lifetime of bidding on a particular account, may only have 3. Three. For any reason.
This is misinformation. If you notice a seller with a lot of negative feedback, you can report it to safeharbor for review. If ebay determines that the seller is consistently getting negatives for the same infraction, they will remove the seller.
Bidders get three negatives for nonpayment, not "for any reason." The rules are very clear on this. If three unique users report the bidder via a nonpaying bidder alert and then request final value fees, the bidder will be suspended.
At any rate, this is a case of her wanting to rip him off. She states this in her original post.
suspect the email inquiry I sent him tipped him off to the rarity of the item
and
and subsequently relisted it new as it should have been described
tells us everything we need to know about the ethics of the bidder. She wanted something rare for nothing. She didn't care about her ethics at that point. Since the seller was smart enough to cancel the auction, all of a sudden his ethics are questionable.
Sure we've all gotten good deals in our lives, but not to the point where we deliberately ripped someone off. If I saw an item on auction that I knew was misdescribed, I would tell the seller. I would hope most people were honest enough to do the same for me. For sure, I know I've lost money on some things now that this thread has come forth, but that's life.
If you don't want the item for it's real value, move on. I'm sure there are other people out there who don't know what they have who will enable you to get your "deal."
posted on June 22, 2001 10:42:50 AM new
Hi Oldfashion, Just thought I'd point out to you that if you asked the auctioneer at a live auction what the mark was on the bottom of a pot, I don't think he's going to come out and whisper it to you. He's going to announce it for ALL potential bidders to hear. Anyone who didn't see it before or didn't want to ask, now is quite aware of it.
Since the seller here didn't change the opener, just the ad, it seems like pretty much the same thing to me.
posted on June 22, 2001 01:59:02 PM newmtnmama - Well I'm not sure that eBay's Bid Retraction Policy specifically addresses the situation I proposed or not.
The only acceptable reasons for bid retraction that it lists are if you accidentally enter a wrong bid amount (as in a typo), if the description changes, or if the seller is unresponsive -- none of these seems to be the "I thought it was an extremely rare book, but after I went downtown I found out you can buy it at any newsstand for $5." example.
The policy goes on to say it's NOT ok to retract if you change your mind about the item, decide you really can't afford it, or if you just get carried away and bid too high. The situation I proposed seems to me a little more like this -- the bidder just changed his mind, AFTER he took the trouble to do his research.
But again, although they seem to indicate it's against the rules, it doesn't seem that there are any real consequences for an occasional retraction of this type.
[ edited by triplesnack on Jun 22, 2001 02:03 PM ]
posted on June 22, 2001 06:12:26 PM new
Oh this is great fun, can I play?
If you read the user agreement, it says 'exceptional circumstances such as' and then goes on to list the ones mentioned here as examples, but obviously not all inclusive or they wouldn't use the term 'such as'.
I would expect retracting a bid for a million dollars because an item was actually only worth $5 would be an exeptional cirscumstance.
posted on June 22, 2001 06:39:51 PM new
oldfashioned
You could look at this differently. You see an auction that you are pretty sure the seller doesn't know the value of his item (because it is undervalued or the way it is worded).
Being the nice person that you are, you tipped the seller off to the possible value of his item, saving him from making a big mistake. Do you selfishly feel sorry for your self for missing the deal of the century? Of course you do. But you should also feel good about helping this seller get the best value for his item.
There was absolutely nothing wrong or unethical with the seller canceling his auction when he found out he made an oversight and could get a lot more from it. You would be wrong (unethical) to begrudge him of the opportunity.
posted on June 22, 2001 09:15:03 PM new
I guess a $5 item with a $1M bid, since the numbers are so extreme, would be an exception. I was riffing off of tim99's example.
Use the same example, but change the numbers to a $10 item with a $50 bid. Still a legitimate exception?
I'd be surprised if sellers here would give much support to the idea that it's OK for bidders to place a high $ bid, then do their research about how much the item is truly worth, and retract their bid because they decide the item isn't worth that much. "Ethically" this is either right or it's not, and the dollar amount really isn't part of the equation.
posted on June 22, 2001 09:32:55 PM new
I was incorrect in my statement. I think I'll correct it before someone else does.
"A bidder can retract a bid at anytime for any reason"
Not really true. It is quite against the rules for example, to bid in consort with a partner and inflate the price of an item WAY past its real value and then retract the bids in the last hour or so of an auction. The reason of course would be to effectively ruin that auction while hoping to attract those potential bidders to your auction of an identical item.
I'm sure there are other bid retraction schemes that are equally againt ebays rules.
posted on June 22, 2001 09:43:30 PM new
triplesnack:
Agreed, it's not about ethics. I think given the right amount of money the original poster would do the exact same thing and truth be told they're just upset it happened to them. I would be too but those are the breaks. The lesson here is to ask questions more subtlety or not at all if you don't want to risk tipping off someone to the value of an item. One of the first lessons of a live auction is not to tip your hand during the review of items. That is of course a LOT harder on ebay but that of course goes with the territory.
posted on June 22, 2001 09:57:05 PM new
In the auction in question, the seller had a description that was not accurate. Another word for this situation is misrepresentation. When the seller discovered it, he did what any seller should do. He nuked the auction and relisted it with an ACCURATE description. It makes no difference whether a misrepresented item favors the seller or buyer, it is still a misrepresented item. He did the right thing by relisting and providing his potential bidders an auction that had an honest and accurate description. This sounds to me like the kind of seller I would want to do business with.
The light at the end of the tunnel will turn out to be an oncoming train.
posted on June 23, 2001 07:00:28 AM new
Winston Churchill in a response to a blue stocking (early feminist) asked her if she would sleep with a man for 100,000 pounds.
She replied that she would consider it.
He then asked if she would sleep with him for 5 pounds she replied "What do you take me for?" He said "We both know what you are, we are simply haggling over price"
and the auction, and subsequently relisted it new as it should have been described, my previous high bid on the original cancelled auction is there for all the world to see. So, I'm not bidding on the relisting at all unless I happen to get lucky and snipe it at the last minute.
