posted on June 26, 2001 01:19:28 PM newDamon
how can you honestly say that by tracking the number of unique verified users that have bought my merchandise guarantees anything to the next buyer?
If I have a gas station and I ask for a valid drivers license before I sell someone gas, I note the total number of people that have valid drivers licenses and don't count the people that are expired or don't have a license, also I don't count the people that buy gas that are from out of state or country that buy gas, I only count each person that buys gas once, and I have a big sign for all to see that I am collecting this information and I post to it every time there is a change.
My store is in a business district and I advertise heavily. I have a few customers that have service businesses some have as many as 10 trucks and I see them several time a week but I only count them once. there is a guy that will not buy gas anywhere but my store he does not have a valid drivers license I see him every other day and I wont count him. I live next to one of the largest national forests in the USA and it draws lots of people that are not from this area, I don't count any of them.
Now here comes a guy that has never seen such a site as this huge board, I ask to see his drivers license before I sell him gas. I verify that he is from my state but lives several hours away, I'll never see him again, he has a valid license I put him in the computer and wham the sign changes. the next three people are already in the computer. the next two are from out of town, and the next person I get to count again and it is a new person around here I'll see them a few times a week.
Now a guy that is driving down the street he waves at bob at the pumps, he see him there almost every week buying gas, but the board remains unchanged because bob was my first customer when the system went into affect. He sees the sign everyday do think he notices that I have sold gas to 2 new people today? Does he care? .
Now the State steps in and says WOW what a great Sign!(they always like stuff that servers no purpose) They say tell you what if anyone from this state ever bounces a check or you have a CC charge back we will pay for it out of the tax we collect at the pump. But for people out of the state, or if they don't have a valid drivers license your out of luck, you'll have to take those on the chin.
So what does this sign tell the next person that wants to buy gas? NOTHING!! not a D*** thing
If I make it so that only people with a valid drivers license from my state can buy gas will that affect my sales? YES!!
Do I want to do the states job and make these people get a new license? NO!!
So what does the big sign really say? it tells me that someone has gone to a lot of trouble for nothing, if the person that is selling the gas had not gone to engineers, sign painters, computer programmers, electricians, crane operators, concrete company, code enforcement, building permits etc.... then the gas might have remained the same, you see at the end of the month there will be a raise on the price of gas, now all pumps will have a 2.2% charge, not just the premium. And when they get another good idea that really means nothing I know they will spend a bunch of money before they know what the response will be. Now I may be OK with a soda machine at the pumps, but don't give me something I don't need, don't want, has no use, and then raise my price at the pumps.
After all there are stations that do nothing but pump gas, no frills, no sign, no cost, they don't change their rules every few months and their gas is the same grade.
The paypal measurement is of little value. It would be foolish to dipute this fact. At the same time, I do not find the posting to be dangerous or threatening in any way. I view it pretty much as a mute issue, having no impact in the way I will conduct my day-to-day business. I'm failing to see what the fuss is all about...
posted on June 26, 2001 01:45:04 PM new
This Dog&Pony Show is being launched at the same time as their new Bend-Over Fees in order to obscure the new reaming from PaySmell!
Much ado about little when ya should be yelping in FEE-PAIN!
posted on June 26, 2001 02:00:46 PM newcomputerboy
It really doesn't have a very sinister look on the surface, kind of like the 150lbs dog that thinks he is a tea cup poodle. But when you are verified PayPal has you by the short hairs. I can actual see where PayPal is going to have some hard road ahead if they get too heavy handed and with all the banking info they have and start charging back sellers from their bank accounts just so that they don't get hit with the fees form a CC charge back from a buyer without due course.
Like someone else said "PayPal wants it's cake and wants to eat it too". raise the fees, force verified accounts to be protected, come up with little gimmicks help you help them verify people, and then if there is a problem you deal with US and not the CC companies. They starting to feel like a Government agency and not the cute little tea cup poodle they claim to be.
paypaldamon
I still love it, the person doing the charge back to their CC company, "but I checked paypals guide and they've done business with 1000+ verified customers, I didn't think I would have a problem" but this seller could still have 200 charge backs and could still be a PayPal member showing 1000+ transactions to verified members.
Tool Sound really useful........Where as you check their ebay feedback and they have neg. after neg., which is useful, and which is useless?
posted on June 26, 2001 02:13:01 PM newpaypaldamon:
Since it seems to me that you are ignoring my question, I am going to ask it one last time.
Why does PayPal feel it is anyone else's business how many verified users I have done transactions with, and why does PayPal feel that information is of any use to anyone else but myself and PayPal?
I implore you, please answer this question. If you cannot, please tell me so.
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posted on June 26, 2001 02:23:04 PM new
This is all smoke and mirrors. PayPalDamon is carefully wording his responses to ensure that he is clear that PayPal is not revealing any transaction data including the number of transactions a users has completed. This plan in my opinion is virtually the same thing and is clearly done for the benefit of PayPal, not the "community".
As one who succesfully migrated hundreds upon hundreds of customers to Billpoint through the elimination of PayPal in all auctions and EOA notices, I will be taken these steps for good. Recently, I added PayPal in EOA e-mails again as accepted as a convenience to customers (Billpoint is still listed as preferred and advertised in auctions) and I did see a substantial increase in PayPal - no more!
I have found customers do like the ease of Billpoint, especially with BIN auctions. And the fee is only slightly more. As a former bank examiner for the Department of the Treasury and the Federal Reserve, I feel much more comfortable with Billpoint and know I can count on its safety and soundness. I certainly do not feel this way with PayPal.
I would recommend that sellers, e-mail Billpoint and ask for reduced rates. Explain your situation, how you primarily use a competitor with lower fees, your plans to increase sales expecially during the holidays, and you feel you can really increse your use of Billpoint with the reduced fee structure. I did awhile back and received the merchant rate which is just barely more than PayPal but it has an automatic sweep into my bank account each day which makes me sleep easier, for who wants to leave money with PayPal!
posted on June 26, 2001 02:31:52 PM new
It is just another red flag on the unverfied seller that he is not verfied and will have buyers a little suspicious as to why he isn't without an explanation from the seller. Thus the point it is a tool to have sellers verify their checking accounts. Personally I would rather go with another service than have to ad a note in my EOA explaining why my account of a few years is still unverified. Which will only make the buyer question paypal's reliability not mine who has 1500 positive feedbacks.
posted on June 26, 2001 02:37:35 PM newIt does not mean anything.
Truer words were never spoken!
It is a guide only, not an endorsement, to assist users in making a decision.
So how does it assist the user in making a decision if it doesn't give the whole picture?
It does not guarantee anything.
Nor does it mean anything. Useless information that will lull the unsuspecting into a false sense of security.
Feedback on ebay includes the good, the bad, and the ugly facts of a user's transactions...as such it does have some limited benifit to other users.
The paypal "community participation" program gives only a partial review of a user's behaviorand as such is worthless information and does nothing to help a user determine if he should do business with another....BUT, as an arm-twisting endeavor....?
posted on June 26, 2001 02:48:11 PM newIt does not guarantee anything.
Nor does it mean anything. Useless information that will lull the unsuspecting into a false sense of security.
The paypal "community participation" program gives only a partial review of a user's behaviorand as such is worthless information and does nothing to help a user determine if he should do business with another....BUT, as an arm-twisting endeavor....?
okay, so it's about trying to get users verified. period. ... oh hell, amy's already said it all. i'm done with posting on this thread.
posted on June 26, 2001 02:58:32 PM new
Add me to the list of folks who DO NOT appreciate this. I know from experience, Paypal never does ANYTHING without ulterior motives (every nickel, dime and penney). They have proved time and again their word is worthless.
Keep it up. I'm just waiting for the first time ya'll throw one of the charge backs at me--I'll close the account FOR GOOD.
Somebody count me in on this class action suit, will ya?
posted on June 26, 2001 03:21:30 PM new
Sorry to return to my theme. I have been trading on eBay since Sept 1999. I sell world wide on eBay, 25 different countries. I take Paypal and it helps my sales but International users cannot at present be verified. The new policies will leave us traders outside the USA discriminated against as we cannot be verified. Can I suggest that Paypal delays this new policy until International users can be verified so that we all have "A level playing field" I hope my friends across The Pond understand that comment!
This is not my trading name.
posted on June 26, 2001 03:49:57 PM new
Suppose you'd like to buy a widget, and you're evaluating two different sellers. Seller A has a PayPal rating of 500, while seller B has a rating of 50, and both have been in business for about the same amount of time.
Which one do you choose?
Seller A seems the obvious choice, but what if, upon further inspection (of information you will not be provided), you are able to determine that Seller A has had 1 transaction with each of 500 different people, and seller B has had 10 transactions with each of 50 people.
Which would you choose now?
For my money, I'd go with the seller who can demonstrate that he is able to satisfy customers on a repeated basis.
A seller can maybe get away with substandard performance once, but I doubt there are many people willing to line back up for another piece of that pie. IMO, return customers are one of the best gauges a buyer has to evaluate a seller, and it is exactly this information that PayPal is not going to give you.
Yet they insist it is... to assist users in making a decision.
posted on June 26, 2001 04:25:07 PM new
Hi revvassago,
I am not ignoring your questions, but I would like you to compare the number of posters (numerous) to me (one). There are numerous other forums that I attend to daily and I have to spread my resources out.
Users had asked for a "feedback" system that would help them gauge potential risk when paying another party. This was the only way that we could do it without releasing specifics on another user (transactions,etc). This number is a community number, simply reflecting the number of unique, verified users that a seller (or buyer) has done business with, which gives the end user a possible indicator of the potential for issues. It is not an endorsement of any user, but simply a guide (in addition to the other tools users currently use, such as feedback).
posted on June 26, 2001 04:26:31 PM new
My feedback reads 394 P0S from 225 Unique + 1 Neg when I forgot to pay! Sorry. Many of my buyers are in UK. The true figure is double the above as UK buyers do not leave feedback. I will still be discriminated against as I cannot be a verified trader.
[ edited by GreetingsfromUK on Jun 26, 2001 04:31 PM ]
This is not my trading name.
[ edited by GreetingsfromUK on Jun 26, 2001 04:34 PM ]
posted on June 26, 2001 04:40:21 PM newpaypaldamon:
Users had asked for a "feedback" system that would help them gauge potential risk when paying another party
If users would like a feedback system, why not just implement a real feedback system, similar to eBay, so that they have some real information to make an informed decision on?
The information that this "feedback" system provides does nothing to show how reliable a person is. It just shows how long they have been using paypal, and how many users they have interacted with.
This system is flawed from the beginning. Say, for example, I complete 10,000 transactions with 100 users, all of whom are repeat buyers. This "feedback" system will show that I had 100 transactions with verified users! What about the other 9,900 transactions?
A user-run feedback system will always work better, because it allows the users to judge QUALITY, not QUANTITY.
Was there some sort of survey that PayPal conducted prior to this change? If not, how do you know these "users who asked for a feedback system" speak for the majority?
BTW, thank you for the response. I was just getting upset because I asked the question numerous times, but you were answering everyone else's questions but mine. No offense meant.
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This is my sig file. Deal with it.
[ edited by revvassago on Jun 26, 2001 04:41 PM ]
posted on June 26, 2001 09:50:55 PM new
That information will do absolutely zero in giving consumers any confidence what-so-ever.
A feedback system "like eBays" could be implmented and then of course comes all the problems with managing it just like eBay endures.
The only reason I can think of that such information would be displayed is so someone, whomever, can go in and get a gauge on how many times a seller has used the service.
Thats by no means an indicator of anything. Used it 150 times and 40 of those were problems for example. I'd say however it can sure make easy pickin's for the folks like the IRS to pursue tax issues. Online sales be they business or private is something the Bush adminstration is apparently going hard line on. They have already basically told the IRS and public its back to the "old days".
Many folks dont realize as well when services say "we agree to work with blah blah authorities blah blah" that can mean MANY things. It can mean someone calls from irs, or police whatall and they can just hand over all information, transactions, this that. It can also mean that for any reason they can turn it over to said entities themselves. Just happened matter of fact few weeks back in as I recall Arkansas. A payment service (which I wont mention) turned some lady over w/o any "known motivation". My guess is she went ballistic on em' and they said ok, "chew on this" so to speak.
What we all need is a new card processing standard basically.
posted on June 26, 2001 10:35:31 PM new
hi revvassago
"This system is flawed from the beginning. Say, for example, I complete 10,000 transactions with 100 users, all of whom are repeat buyers. This "feedback" system will show that I had 100 transactions with verified users! What about the other 9,900 transactions?"
The additional transactions would not count.
No feedback system is going to be as perfect as we would all like them to be. They are simply guides to assist users in making a decision.
As an example,eBay feedback has numerous pros and cons:
a) It is not automatic-- users must make a consciuos decision to leave feedback.
b) It is qualitative-feedback left can be pro or con. The good? User leaves positive feedback. The bad? User leaves negative feedback over miscommunication or a dispute.
c) It has been, in the past, a victim of shilling (or some users manipulated the numbers in order to defraud). However, this does not mean that the majority of users are bad. The bad sellers or buyers always draw the most attention, when the majortiy of users (in any industry) are honest customers.
PayPal Pro:
1. Automatic.
2. All transactions, not just those from auctions, count (verified members).
3. Does not display the total number of transactions (privacy) or the amount of transactions (privacy).
4. Does not indicate charge backs filed against the party (privacy reasons, which can also be coupled with the fact that charge backs are consumer rights...an honest seller could receive a black eye for something they have no control over).
PayPal Con:
1. It does not leave room for qualitative items in a transaction.
2. Transactions only count from verified members (for security reasons).
3. Repeat transactions from individuals do not increase the nmber.
4. Not all users are verified.
This is simply a tool to augment the ability of users to gauge potential risk. It should be used in conjunction with the other tools you have (feeddback rating, communication with the buyer or seller,etc) to aid buying/selling decisions.
For example, a verified user may want the item shipped to a different address, but the seller is wary (because of our SPP guidelines) of doing so. The Community Participation number will show that x ampount of users have conducted at least one transaction with the user with no issues. The seller, based on feedback of the buyer, coupled with the community number, may decide that the risk factor is low.
How does this apply? Verified users ,ones that do not have a confirmed credit card on file, do not have a confirmed address to release.
(Verified users, on the other hand, are capable of sending e-checks. These would also calculate into the number. All transactions from verified members, whether credit card or not, do count towards moving the number up)
posted on June 26, 2001 10:49:11 PM newpaypaldamon:
Thank you for your response, and for explaining it further.
As a paypal user who thinks that this "feedback" system is flawed and not really helpful to anyone, is Paypal going to allow its users to "opt out" of this? Sort of like "private" eBay feedback?
If so, let me be the first to do so.
I don't see how this new "Member Information" is really going to help anyone in the real world. Sure, it may look good on paper, but there is no way that I am going to refuse to send money because someone "Hasn't had enough transactions with verified users". That is what PayPal's account verification process is for - to make certain that both the buyer and seller are using legitimate accounts. It seems to me that this is just going to be a way for PayPal to "pass the buck" when something goes wrong in a transaction.
I can see it now.... "Well, revvassago, you should have looked at their "Member Information", and you would have seen that they have only had 2 transactions with verified members, and therefore you should have known better than to send money to them."
I just see absolutely no benefit to releasing this information. I have no problem with anyone knowing how long I have been a PayPal member and what type of account I hold, but the number of verified users I have had transactions with is another story. A number is not going to tell anyone anything useful. There has to be some substance behind that number for it to be of any benefit to anyone, and that is a privacy issue that cannot be worked around.
I suggest that PayPal offer its members a choice on this issue. As a seller, I am willing to take the "risk" that a buyer won't want to send money to me because they "don't know how many verified users I have transacted with".
[ edited by revvassago on Jun 26, 2001 11:06 PM ]
posted on June 27, 2001 09:01:44 AM new
As PayPal provides a financial service it is very inappropriate for them to share this information.
Should every person who accepts my check or credit card be informed as to exactly how many others have done so? Of course not.
The information is not useful. A large or small number of verified members transacted with gives no meaningful insight into the trustworthiness of the buyer of seller.
This "community participation" is just plain stupid.
Can one change an account to unverified to be excluded from this sharing?
posted on June 27, 2001 09:34:37 AM new
Hi revvassago,
I am not aware of any opt-out options (unless the party has hit 1000+) at this time. I will let the request be known.
Verification reduces fraud concerns for users and it does assist in deterringit.(Industry estimates place fraud around 2.64%.Our rate is less than one-half of one percent...I can point users to the article if needed). Other venues, such as eBay, are also requiring users to add bank accounts to deter fraud, as it does assist with establishing identity to a greater degree.
Hi figmente,
"Should every person who accepts my check or credit card be informed as to exactly how many others have done so? Of course not."
(As I have stated before, the total number of users and transactions are not displayed. The number reflects one transaction with a verified member only. Users could glean, as a source of comparison, approximately how many transactions you have conducted (and how much)on eBay through their feedback system. This number would also not be entirely accurate (because of the issues mentioned above0 )
I just want to remind users that this is a guide to assist in a discretionary transaction (as all transactions are).
posted on June 27, 2001 10:40:14 AM new
How can this number serve as a "guide to assist in a discretionary transaction" ?
As it tells nothing but the number of users transacted with a buyer or seller who is a nightmare for every transaction partner they've dealt with (short of behavior which would suspend or cancel the account) will show just as well as the world's nicest.
