posted on July 12, 2001 09:58:58 PM new
Wow, what an article. Too bad only the company can sue for discrimination. I can't imagine doing something like that.
I noticed on the Buyers letter they have sent a copy to the Better Business Bureau, Chamber of Commerce, E-Bay, Online Auction Users Association and the District Attorney's Office. It sounds like a short little man having a tantrum. I am surprised that the FBI and CIA are not involved.
They also said that they resented that they were charged for the Fed Ex fee to send the check overnight. That is what the husband demanded on a voicemail message, but apparently, he didn't want to pay for it.
Does anyone know if I would have to go to Northern California to small claims or would the case be where we are? Someone mentioned that the case would be where ever the business is located.
posted on July 13, 2001 04:50:13 AM new
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Daleeric
Sorry this is so long.
The court must have jurisdiction - both subject matter & personal - over you in order to issue a valid judgement. Briefly, subject matter means that the court can that type of case; for example a small claims court doesn't have the jurisdiction to hear a $15,000,000 class action personal injury suit. Personal jursidiction refers to the court's jurisdiction over either a person or a business and can be determined by a number of factors including domicile (which is different from residency), contacts with the jurisdiction, where service was made, etc.
It used to be harder for courts to obtain personal jurisdiction over a person or a business because we were a less mobile society; however that has all changed and has gotten considerably messy with the net since transactions could theoretically occur where there the server was located even if that's CA and the buyer and seller live in differnt places. Today a court could effectively rule that they had jurisdication based on any number of things including you advertising in the state, other contacts you have the state, and what the there long arm jurisdiction statutes spell out. A long arm statute is normally enacted by the legislature and allows a court to obtain jurisdiction over individuals more easily and by spelling out what may or may not indicate when a person will become subjected to that state's jurisdiction.
Since it's Plaintiff's choice as to where to file, you do have recourse. You can file a motion stating that the court doesn't have jurisdiction or, if there were other terms to your sale (i.e., all matters to be resolved by arbitration or all matters to be handled using NJ law & heard in the courts of Hudson County) they may rule that they can't hear your case.
Also, judgements can be vaccated, or removed, if you weren't informed of of the trial or if, when the Plaintiff, your buyer, comes to enforce them in your home state that court rules that the first court doesn't have jurisdiction over your (this requires motions & legal filings as well).
Confused? Welcome to the your first semester Civil Procedure course in law school. This stuff gets really bogged down & that's really where a lawyer or legal clinic is needed.
Really - do see a lawyer or a local law school's clinic. I'm NOT a lawyer and can't advise you what to do or how to handle this.
posted on July 15, 2001 12:29:25 PM new
It looks like the Buyers have crossed out the statement "cashing accepts as refund payment in full" on both the back and front of the check. The letter also stated that this check represented payment in full of the disputed amount. I will contact the fraud department of my bank tomorrow.
posted on July 15, 2001 05:20:13 PM new
I may be laughed off the boards but...ummm...I was watching Judge Judy some time back and there was a woman suing someone for the balance of a debt. This woman had been given a check with something like "Paid in Full" written on it, had crossed it out, and then cashed it. Judge Judy told her that she couldn't do that. By cashing the check she had agreed to accept that payment in full for that debt -- it was just as binding as a written contract. Her claim for the balance was denied.
Good Luck, daleeric.
My Best Wishes go out to you.
posted on July 15, 2001 06:35:36 PM new
Bizzybee, LOL! That is where I first heard of it as well!
I did check out a book on contract law, and the check is like a contract. Yes, you CAN cross things out on a contract but BOTH parties much agree to the changes ( "meeting of the minds" ).
posted on July 24, 2001 09:26:49 AM new
I read through the story of your ordeal and am completely amazed, but not surprised.
Here is what I would do. Contact an attorney and be ready to be sued. If you are sued, I would suggest counter-suing. The threats and harrassment they have given you has been extreme.
Isn't ebay and all auctions supposed to be a legal biding action? If so, by them refusing shipment, isn't that breach of contract? See if you can sue them for that.
Look at all your time they have wasted. Tack that on to the lawsuit.
It sounds like you have good documentation and I think the recordings will really help.
If you hear nothing from them, still be prepared. Find out how long they have to sue you.
You might even consider suing them first, again, contact an attorney.
I believe that if Ebay doesn't start doing a better job protecting SELLERS, then they are going to self-destruct. I have read alot lately about too many deadbeat bidders, and have had more recently than I have ever had in the 2+years I have been selling. I am not in this for a business, but as a way of supporting my habit of buying stuff.
posted on July 25, 2001 03:33:57 PM new
The Buyers stated in their letter that they reported us to the Online Auction Users Association. I contacted OAUA and told the complaint department the whole story. The OAUA said that they have not received a complaint about the situation. The OAUA also said that they did not believe us to be at fault, it could have been a combination of racism and buyer's remorse. What a combination!
Nothing from the Buyers recently. I have prepared myself to be "served" at any time. It is possible that they are just making idle threats to see if we comply and send their full refund. We have not responded to them in any manner since the check was sent. Several Sellers who have responded to this thread seem to think a response will just fuel more correspondence, and we agree.
If a judge looks at this case, I don't see how he could rule even slightly in their favor. If we end up selling the Armoire for less, we will deduct that from the tally. Everyone knows there is a difference in Spring and Summer Sales.
I find in general my tolerence for stupidity in clients is less than what it used to be. A lady came to pick up a 100 year old chest of drawers from us and saw a tiny ding about 3 mm by 3mm on the side. All antiques have imperfections, I told her, "you will be in wonderful shape if you look this good at 100 years old!" She did end up buying the piece, but who knows, it may be back on E-Bay in the fall.
[ edited by daleeric on Jul 25, 2001 03:35 PM ]
posted on July 30, 2001 12:02:11 PM new
Having scanned many of the replies to this thread I thought that I would tell you about an incident that just happened here, in a suburb of Pittsburgh, PA. About 2 weeks ago a white couple from an affluent neighborhood hired a painter to paint the outside of their home. The painter they contracted with was white. When the painting crew showed up the owners refused to allow them to proceed. Why? Because the crew was all black.
The couple sued to get there deposit back because they would not accept the black crew to do the work, and the painter sued to get the entire amount awarded to him had he completed the job.
Who won? In the local Magistrates court the painter was awarded the entire sum of the bid for the job. The white couple lost. The black painters may take the case to Federal court which holds jurisdiction over civil rights cases. Just thought that this was an interesting sidebar to the subject.
posted on July 30, 2001 03:35:00 PM new
Someone in this thread posted the same case on the above page. It is interesting ro read the entire article in link on this same page.
I stated in my letter to the Buyers that the first words out of their mouth were about race they denied it. They said that we breached the contract because the delivery team did not know how to put the Armoire together. They never gave the guys a chance, the wife told me on the phone that the delivery team "didn't look like they spoke English."
So far, no more correspondence. The husband said he had a "lifelong friend that was an attorney." It's a shame he didn't consult his friend before cashing the check when it clearly stated "paid in full." It isn't legally correct to alter a contract unless both parties agree. That is typical of this couple. I can't imagine this buyer having any friends, especially lifelong friends.
posted on July 30, 2001 06:10:35 PM new
Regarding the black painters with the white clients, I know of an identical situation that happened a few years ago in CA. I'm ashamed to say that the person involved was a relative...but only by marriage!
The painter should have sued her and didn't. I wish he had. I can't believe in this day and age that these kinds of things still happen, especially involved presumably educated, intelligent people who should know better.
posted on August 4, 2001 12:34:32 PM new
Hi everyone,
Just got a letter from the Better Business Bureau that these customer just reported me and are requesting a refund of $645.58. This was the cost of the shipping which I paid and my E-Bay fees. Since they bought this piece from their company to avoid the sale tax, I should report them for discrimation. I just don't know why this thing doesn't go away. They should try to sue the shipper for the shipper. I don;t have that money and did not make a profit from this nightmare transaction.
posted on August 4, 2001 01:20:38 PM new
FORWARD HIS E-MAIL DEMANDING A PHONEY 1099 TO "OUR FRIENDS" AT THE IRS, STATE DEPT. OR REVENUE, BETTER BUSINESS BUREAU, ETC. POST A NEG TODAY STATING "BUYER REFUSED DELIVERY!" MAKE SURE ALL E-MAILS SELLER SENT YOU REGARDING HISPANIC DELIVERY SERVICE ARE ADDRESSED TO HISPANIC PERSONNEL AT THE IRS, ETC., BEFORE YOU SEND IT. DON'T FORGET, IDIOT BUYER WILL POST A NEG. ON YOU, GIVING YOU THE GOLDEN OPPORTUNITY TO POST A "THOUGHTFUL RESPONSE"! MOVE ON! THIS IS "OLD NEWS"! MAKE SURE YOUR REFUND TO HIM IS BY PERSONAL CHECK, HAND-DELIVERED (AND SIGNED FOR) BY A HISPANIC MESSENGER SERVICE. DEMAND BOTH OF THEIR SS#'s AND ALL PERTINENT ID BEFORE HAVING CHECK DELIVERED. HAVE THE MESSENGER CARRY A TAPE-RECORDER FOR SECURITY AND MEDIA REFERENCES. PERHAPS A LOCAL HISPANIC JORNALIST COULD HAND-DELIVER THE REFUNDED CHECK TO THE SELLER. BE CREATIVE. YOU ARE GOING TO GET NEGGED ANYHOO, SO ENJOY IT. USE THE WORD "ALLEGEDLY" AND "WILFULLY" IN YOUR NEG ON THE BUYERS. YOU HAVE, WHAT 90 DAYS SINCE AUCTION END TO POST YOUR NEG ON THE BUYERS; LET THEM STEW A TAD. I'D LOOK UP THE LOCAL NEWSPAPER'S STAFF NAMES TO FIND A HISPANIC JOURNALIST. ANY LOCAL TV STATIONS IN THAT TOWN? WE WISH SOME JERK WOULD TRY THIS BULL ON US. BEFORE REFUND CHECK GOES OUT, CHECK TO SEE IF A 6 WEEK PERIOD, OR WHATEVER IS THE LEGAL PERIOD IN YOUR STATE.
posted on August 4, 2001 01:24:47 PM new
daleeric:
The BBB is not a court with authority to compel you to issue a refund. Their communication to you is only conveying what the buyers are demanding. That doesn't mean you cave in and give it to them.
A simple reply that a refund is not warranted in this case, with a brief outline of the facts is all you need to do. Don't ignore the BBB, but also don't fear them.
Even if the BBB ends up agreeing with the buyers, SO WHAT? They can't force you to refund. You'll have a little black mark on your file. Again, SO WHAT? How many of us check with the BBB before we buy something from a seller on eBay, or a B&M seller for that matter?
If this is the best the buyers can do to harm you, it is pretty pathetic. Hang in there. You did the right thing. Stand firm.
posted on August 4, 2001 01:34:04 PM new
I forgot to add:
Just be sure you don't sign anything from the BBB agreeing to binding arbitration. One simple reply should be all you need to do. If they write back, repeat that a refund is not warranted in this situation.
posted on August 4, 2001 03:41:36 PM new
RE: The BBB; down South we were getting a few "Extortionist"-Style Letters of Complaint from the NGO BBB. Our Corpration's Law Firm suggested that we "Hire" the Local "Credit-Bureau" to Collect our Deadbeat Customer's Past-Due accounts. (Same Building, Same Personnel as the local BBB! Hmmmmmmmm!) Case closed! No more Phoney Complaints from "Buyer's Remorse Customers" (They usually owed us Big Bucks!) Also, we sent a few Bad-Check Writers down to the Judge. A few Months in the County Work Farm was usually effective. This was in the Auto Repair Biz. We ended up with ALL the BBB/Credit Bureau's Personal Car Repairs, not ONE CENT OFF! We gave "Lifetime-Guarantees" on all Parts & Labor on ALL work. We had to buy 2 Branch Offices, we were so overloaded with Biz that we had to CANCEL our TV Ads! We Sold and did Trans-Repair for every Auto Dealer in the Tri-State Area. We can't understand how eBay has let you down on this; what's the Status on the Buyer's "Fraud-Insurance" Claim eBay accepted? Where is the Armoire now? Don't CA Hispanic Cops and Buff Young Hispanic Media Guys work 2nd Jobs in CA? Like for an Licensed and Bonded Hispanic-Owned Antique Furniture Delivery Service? If you end up in Court with the Buyer's Lawsuit, a Hispanic Judge would be.............! -PJ38-
posted on August 4, 2001 04:53:27 PM new
I did contact Safeharbor about it. They only said to try to work it out if you can. The safeharbor person also said that he looked up the Armoire and it was beautiful but could not afford it on his E-Bay salary. That was really it. The Buyers did file a fraud report, which Lloyd's of London handles. I have not received anything from Lloyds at all. If E-Bay suspended this Buyer, he could re-register in another name. I would rather have him blocked on my auctions this way, I guess. I wish E-Bay's system was more protective to Sellers. We are the ones who are making them successful, we pay the fees.
I wrote the letter to the BBB. As one of the Sellers mentioned they can't make me agree to anything. I will not do a binding arbitration either. My husband does not want to file a counter complaint for racism, he just wants to move on. The longer you wait to counter complain, it appears contrived.
posted on August 4, 2001 05:06:15 PM new
Mexican President Vicente Fox Co-Authors "Movie of the Week" Script with eBay Seller; Book Deal earns 15 Million Dollar Advance from Publisher. Taco Bell to offer Children's Toys. Gary Condit to Star in "The Missing Armoire"
I have to tell you, when I saw this back up on the list, I was hoping that somebody just bumped it, so I skipped immediately to the last post, and then started reading backwards. I cannot believe this buyer. I, like you would prefer to just move on, chalk this one up to an idiot buyer, but I'm thinking this is starting to border on harrassment and defamation of character. I cannot beleive that this character actually believes that he should get this money returned to him. But, his behavior is reflective of so many in our world. No accountability. He screwed up, and He should be the one to pay. But, he's going to make everyone else's life miserable because of HIS mistake. Reminds of the lady who spilled the hot coffee at the McDonald's drivethru. SHE spilled the coffee, but somehow it wasn't her fault. She would've been ticked off it hadn't been hot. Oh well, I've rambled on enough.
posted on August 4, 2001 09:40:20 PM new
Do you think we could get a movie of the week? I would certainly donate a percentage of my profits to a minority college fund. I am not greedy.
My husband has had it with the Armoire. He wants to put it on E-Bay for a $1.00 and get rid of it. I don't think it is such a good idea in the summertime. He thinks the Armoire is haunted, so perhaps we could make the movie of the week into a thriller. We have the excitement of the auction, racism, threats and we can end the movie with aliens beaming the Armoire up to another planet, after they pay with Pay Pal, of course... My husband would like that ending!
I think the buyers ego is bruised. Perhaps we are the only ones he couldn't bully. I will send the letter to the BBB on Monday.
posted on August 5, 2001 07:43:27 AM new
Isn't it a CS Lewis book where they go through the armoire into a fantasy world? Maybe this is the 'evil twin'! I, too would want to get rid of it ASAP, but I can't help but wonder if you shouldn't hold onto it until the dust settles, just in case (In case of what, I do not know!).
I do hope and pray that this is all settled for you soon!
posted on August 5, 2001 08:03:50 AM new
daleeric,
Does seem like this poor Armoire has some bad karma attached to it now.
If you are seriously considering getting rid of it at a loss, why not consider donating it to a women's shelter or charity? You would atleast get the benefit of a tax write-off plus the knowledge that it might actually come to some good use.
posted on August 5, 2001 10:36:29 AM new
Daleeric - Can you send me a link to the armoire auction... somehow? Does this violate AW message board rules? I'm in the market for one, maybe two armoires. And I'm not a racist I'm at [email protected]. ......Deb
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