posted on July 31, 2001 07:28:16 PM
I think it is ridiculous to report someone as spamming them when they are contacted in regards to an auction they have bid on. I would welcome an email from a seller whose auction I bid on and lost by a mere $1.00 giving me the opportunity to buy it if I want to.
I have also received unsolicited email from other Ebayers, but never contacted Ebay to purposely "turn someone in". This is petty and unless it is a threat or some other bizarre reason to contact me then why get a fellow Ebayer in trouble?
And what about all of those emails we now get from Ebay advertising their site in addition to the ones Ebay sends to let me know other items I can bid on if I lose an auction I have bid on? A lot of what they refer me to has nothing to do with the item I was interested in.
Criticize me if you want, but I get tons of spam email that I simply delete. How would those that think email in regards to an auction they are involved in would appreciate it if they received a spam warning because they had simply contacted an interested bidder. I have more important things to do than try to get someone in trouble. IMO, this is petty and childish.
posted on July 31, 2001 07:36:24 PM
It's interesting to see the different viewpoints we have on this issue and I find it quite helpful.
And it's also interesting to see that most people are able to express their opinion nicely even though they might strongly disagree with what I did. I do appreciate that.
I wonder how many of you that might be cheering this new bidder on for her actions will be the first to come here and complain when you get negative feedback from a buyer who doesn't contact you first? You feel that buyers shouldn't put a bad mark on your reputation without trying to work it out with you first, right? Well, I feel this bidder could have easily expressed her concerns by replying to the email as sadie99 said and handled it between the two of us. The result would have been the same, I still would have stopped sending out the emails. But I guess it's too unusual to find a seller who listens to their buyers.
Oh, and as far as the money issue goes, yes, I noticed after I'd been sending out the notices for awhile, the bidders did seem to bid again more frequently. Now, obviously, if they'd been offended by the emails, that wouldn't have happened. And, of course, when I first started sending them out, I didn't notice any such trend, but still sent them out anyway because I'd received no objections about it. So, is it my fault they chose to bid higher?
Well, pardon me for repeating myself, but I'm no longer sending out emails to anyone other than the winning bidder and even then there will be no more advertisements for my auctions either at eBay or any other site.
So anyone who can't accept that and still feels I'm a greedy, invasive, thoughtless, money-grubbing seller who sends crap to people's inboxes can just pass my auctions by.
Buyers who appreciate excellent service are welcome.
I'm sorry, it's late, and I'm tired. If anyone has anything further to say, I'll deal with it tomorrow.
posted on July 31, 2001 07:38:01 PM
I am mostly a buyer on eBay and I would not consider this spam.
By bidding on a sellers auction, I am showing my interest in purchasing from the seller. If the seller decides to thank me for my interest in a short friendly e-mail, that would be fine. It only takes seconds to delete if it bothers me in any way.
I can't understand why people would be upset enough to "turn the seller in." The idea that they want the item from the seller, but the seller isn't allowed to communicate with them until the deal is complete is quite a brusque attitude.
posted on July 31, 2001 07:46:56 PM
To restate my point, I wouldn't turn you in, but I would ask you to remove you from a list. I just get too much mail, and I don't want email sent unless I request it to be sent. I didn't mean to imply that you are a greedy, invasive, thoughtless, money-grubbing seller! My preference would simply be not to receive this notification.
posted on July 31, 2001 08:10:18 PMI can't believe it.
Really?
You're sending out that email, trying to lead these people to more of your auctions. I would consider that soliciting. Who wouldn't? And you know it is as well, right? You just got away with it until now.
Now, would I be offended if I received such an email?
No, I personally would not.
spelling
[ edited by loosecannon on Jul 31, 2001 08:12 PM ]
posted on July 31, 2001 08:19:14 PM
What is spam? Since I haven't got a recent dictionary I can't look it up. But, in my opinion the first defination is a processed food that I had when I was young and now back on the shelves. I sort of liked it also. Now to the topic of this spam. What is the difference between turning in BJGROLLE for advertising his/her website or coming across an auction at ebay that directs you to their website. I find them one in the same and I wouldn't turn them into safeharbor. eBay just wants ALL the business and I guess since this advertises another website they don't like it. Well remember there are alot of things we don't like about ebay but we have no say in that. If I received mail like that which I do often I just point my arrow to the red x and hit it and it's gone. Speaking of spam ebay sends me one all the time as I have checked I do not want email but I just delete it and forget about.
posted on July 31, 2001 09:48:45 PMIt was meant to be friendly and give confidence to the prospective buyer that I will not ignore their questions or needs after the auction closed
I wish all sellers were that way. I just had a seller reply to me not long before the auction closed to a question I asked last Friday. Yea they could have been busy and not working on weekends but even if I liked the answer I would not have gone back and bid. 5 days is streaching it a bit.
I as a seller started sending "your a looser" e-mails. It simply says "your a looser but I may have more of the same item closing in a few days take a look if you want" It then gives my auction link at eBay. It is also worded a little better.
I believe it has increased my bids. Well till safeharbor finds out about it and cuts me off.
posted on July 31, 2001 10:07:51 PM
Below is what eBay says, and what I get out of this is that first you need to be a lawer to understand it, but I think it says in (a) you can send emails to users as long as it is related to eBay and it is not an unsolicited commercial email. Which I would think that it is ok to email your bidders to introduce yourself when they bid on one of your items. Now BJ I think you went wrong when you took the subject off eBay and made it commercial by including BidVille and told them to look at your website. Now you should be able to give a link to other items on eBay and your signature can include your web address and that wouldn't off-eBay and commercial. It's all in how you word things. You could also put a notice in your auctions in 6pt that says: "By bidding on this item you are giving me permission to send you a 'Thank you for your bid' email and one final email when the auction ends." I think this would be "adequate disclosure". Who reads the fine print anyways. Also I thought that eBay was only a venue. But that's another subject.
EBAY SAYS:
By entering into our User Agreement, you agree that, with respect to other users' personally identifiable information that you obtain through the Site or through an eBay-related communication or eBay-facilitated transaction, eBay hereby grants to you a license to use such information only for: (a) eBay-related communications that are not unsolicited commercial messages, (b) using services offered through eBay (e.g. escrow, insurance, shipping and fraud complaints), and (c) any other purpose that such user expressly agrees to after adequate disclosure of the purpose(s). In all cases, you must give users an opportunity to remove themselves from your database and a chance to review what information you have collected about them. In addition, under no circumstances, except as defined in this Section, can you disclose personally identifiable information about another user to any third party without our consent and the consent of such other user after adequate disclosure. Note that law enforcement personnel, VeRO program participants, and other rights holders are given different rights with respect to information they access.
eBay and our users do not tolerate spam. Therefore, without limiting the foregoing, you are not licensed to add an eBay user, even a user who has purchased an item from you, to your mail list (email or physical mail) without their express consent after adequate disclosure. To report eBay related spam to eBay, please send an email to [email protected].
If I got your email I would probably simply smile at the thank you.
OK, so you added a few links in. That wouldn't have bothered me. Actually, I might even click on the link to see if I am still the high bidder - and place another bid if I was dying to buy that "widget".
eBay probably is upset because of your links to your website and especially to Bidville. I think the link to the auction is acceptable.
Perhaps your letter should have gone like this:
Hello, Widget Bidder!
Thank you for your bid on my item. If you have any questions I can be reached via the following email address:
posted on July 31, 2001 10:41:14 PMIt was meant to be friendly and give confidence to the prospective buyer that I will not ignore their questions or needs after the auction closed
Had I been bidding on an auction & received an email from a seller like this, I'd probably just have hit the delete button.
Had I received an email containing a link to other auctions or a website, I'd consider it SPAM & not been too happy a camper about it.
However, it really doesn't matter whether or not WE consider it SPAM, it's what ebay thinks that's the issue right now and it's clear, they consider it SPAM.
Now we can argue until jerry12's cow comes home as to whether or not ebay has the LEGAL right to say who we can contact when and about what. BUT until someone w/big bucks or big brass ones takes them to court over this & gets a ruling, they'll have the power of life and death over our accounts.
Whether we like it or not, ebay is making it pretty clear that contacting a current bidder, a winning bidder or a former bidder to even "hint" at an off site sale will be considered SPAM by them except in the case of an underbidder on an NPB.
And if they get wind of it, they will take action to stop it.
I'm not saying do it or don't do it. I think every seller has to way the rewards (potential additional sales w/o ebay's cut) versus the potential of getting caught & possibly finding yourself suspended.
Each and every seller has to decide for themselves if they feel the rewards outweigh the risks.
Someday someone is finally going to step up to the plate and take ebay on over how far they can control access to the bidders and exactly how far their long arm can reach. When that day finally happens, the line in the sand MAY be redrawn. But until it is, it's still ebay's sandbox and they get to say who plays in there.
posted on August 1, 2001 03:04:35 AMOur Friend ~ Safe Harbour
I also turn in anybody who:
1) Is related to Pat Robertson!
2) Smiles like Jim Baker!
3) Is left-handed!
4) Voted for Dumba!
5) Is stupid enough to bid on any of my competitors' auctions!
6) Drove the PT CRUISER for "you-know-who!"
7) Who followed the "Survivoir" series!
posted on August 1, 2001 05:32:44 AMI as a seller started sending "your a looser" e-mails. It simply says "your a looser but I may have more of the same item closing in a few days take a look if you want" It then gives my auction link at eBay. It is also worded a little better.
I believe it has increased my bids. Well till safeharbor finds out about it and cuts me off.
You'd better watch it, Jim, because that's exactly what will happen when you get the underbidder who doesn't appreciate being contacted like that, even though they'd already bid on the same item.
I posted about this at the AuctionTamer message boards to warn them that these pre-loaded email templates are considered spam. Someone replied that they also had been turned in to SafeHarbor, but for sending the type of email that you're sending out.
And for the record, I would have had no problem with someone asking me not to send out those kinds of emails. I'm not a stubborn person who would insist on repeatedly antagonizing someone even though I'd been asked not to. I agree that doing something like that would mean I would deserve to be turned in to SafeHarbor. But I think that doing so for the first offense went a little bit overboard, whether some of you agree with that or not. I've put this bidder on my blacklist because I don't want to do business with people who go behind my back instead of confronting me directly.
And it also could have been quite a bad move on this bidder's part, too. I wonder what would happen in a similar situation if the high bidder retracted the bid, and left the bidder who turned the seller in as the high bidder. Now that would be a sticky situation, wouldn't it?
NotLeftBehind,
I've been studying the links policies. In some places they prohibit you from linking to your website if your website contains links to items being sold outside of eBay, and in other places they don't, like the About Me page. For instance, you can no longer link to a gallery if that gallery contains clickable links to item pages outside of eBay, regardless of whether those pages are two-clicks away or not. It's the lack of consistency that makes it confusing and we've seen numerous threads about that, too.
Yes, I should be able to give a link to my website in an email. As long as I don't have any text directing people to it, do you think that would be alright? And if I refrained from contacting bidders before the auction ended, then I would only be contacting the winner. The exception to that would be my replies to people who are asking questions before they might place a bid. But in that case, they are initiating the email contact and I don't see how they would be able to complain about it.
So, OK, on to that issue.
If my emails to my winning bidders and potential bidders contain a link to my website with absolutely no text directing the recipient to click on it to see more auction items on eBay or any other auction site, would you be offended?
More opinions please, and feel free to tell me you'd still think it crap, kiawok, cause I'd really like to know.
posted on August 1, 2001 06:09:55 AM
bj - it's unfortunate that ebay tries to redefine spam for its own purposes. for example, ANYTHING that ebay adds on and then makes as an "opt-out feature" is spam. including, but not limited to, their recommendation e-mails.
what you did is NOT spam, as the bidder has already established a third-party contact with you (through ebay) - nor would you replying to a message of theirs elsewhere about them wanting such a product. if they say "stop sending me this stuff", then it would be.
(and the reason why this is not spam is because it was a very specific item, i *believe*. if it was a message saying "i've got millions of widgets" and your public looking for watches, it IS spam).
HOWEVER - it *is* against ebay's rules. basically, ignore ebay's definition of spam (as nearly all ISPs - from the mom n pops to the majors such as earthlink, aol, etc. do NOT adhere to that, and in fact, will terminate *your* site if you tried to pull anything like ebay has RE: opt-out), and just try and stick to their ever-changing rules.
posted on August 1, 2001 06:24:20 AM
BJ ...... Lots of folks use a sig file/link to their website in their email, I have no problem with that, nor is it against eBay's rules.
Here's the problem.
Imagine for a moment that YOU are a fulltime buyer, and EVERY seller on eBay sent you a "congrats" email when you placed a bid.
Can you imagine what a major PITA that would become?
Would you appreciate a "thank-you" [and BTW did you see the underwear sale we have running this week?] phone call from Walmart every time you used your CC to purchase an item from them? I think not, and IMO what you were doing is no different.
posted on August 1, 2001 06:28:28 AM
Personally, I would NOT want to receive an email from a seller when I bid on their auctions. If someone does a lot of bidding, that could be a lot of emails. I delete the one I get from Ebay.
Would I consider it spam? Not really. Before I learned how to stop Internet mail on AOL, I had a site start at about 10 at night and send me an email every 5 minutes about some chemicals. Now, THAT'S spam!
Would I turn you in? Good grief no! I can handle my own problems. I don't need an Ebay mommie or daddie to run to. The only contact I have with Ebay if for a deadbeat bidder and to file for my FVF.
Would I contact you? Nope. I wouldn't be that annoyed. LOL I'd just read it, delete and move on.
posted on August 1, 2001 06:36:10 AM
could you imagine a live auction where the owner of the goods stood up and thanked each bidder and then said "come vist our shop at 1234 south main mon thru fri 8 to 5 "?
spock here......
SOUNDS LIKE A VERY GOOD SALES PITCH-YOU DESERVE THE LEE IACCOCO AWARD OF THE YEAR!!
make sure you have your assistant pass out business cards on site and save their name and addresses for future sales promotion.
oh also mention off hour viewing can be arranged !
oh also stand with your assistant by the exit door at the end of auction and bow profusely to all bidders when they leave
posted on August 1, 2001 06:36:26 AMas the bidder has already established a third-party contact with you (through ebay)
I would seriously disagree. When I bid, I have established ANY relationship w/anyone. It merely signals my potential interest in purchasing this item. I don't want a relationship w/any seller until the auction is over.
If I'm the high bidder, THEN we have a relationship.
But until the bell closes and I'm the winner, don't assume just because I placed a bid that we have a "relationship" and that you have the right to contact me, be it to "congratulate" me for bidding or tell me about your mother-in-law's gall bladder surgry.
posted on August 1, 2001 06:39:13 AM
[i]also turn in anybody who:
1) Is related to Pat Robertson!
2) Smiles like Jim Baker!
3) Is left-handed!
4) Voted for Dumba!
5) Is stupid enough to bid on any of my competitors' auctions!
6) Drove the PT CRUISER for "you-know-who!"
7) Who followed the "Survivoir" series![/i]
8) Likes John Edwards (Sci Fi Channel)
posted on August 1, 2001 06:45:00 AMBut until the bell closes and I'm the winner, don't assume just because I placed a bid that we have a "relationship" and that you have the right to contact me, be it to "congratulate" me for bidding or tell me about your mother-in-law's gall bladder surgry.
Can anyone tell me where I used the word "congratulate" in my notice?
posted on August 1, 2001 06:56:39 AM
OK. I just figured that since it was my email to a bidder that started this discussion, that you might have been referring to it.
Had I received an email containing a link to other auctions or a website, I'd consider it SPAM & not been too happy a camper about it.
So again, taking this quote from one of your previous posts, would you be offended if you won one of my auctions and my emails to you regarding the EOA notice, Payment Received, Shipped, had my website address at the bottom with absolutely no text as to what you might find there?
A simple enough question I think. Either you would be offended and consider it SPAM or you would not be.
posted on August 1, 2001 06:58:48 AM
Is is SPAM? - Yeah. So what! Like so many rules that are being weaved into our lives at every level. The issue of SPAM is going to be with us until the net ceases. You kinda have to pick an choose what you comply with and to what level. Speed limits, squeezing yellow lights, attitude towards tax deductions - same thing
Basically they provide a basis for action by authorities. They then decide when and how to apply them.
You ebay warning probabily was sent virtually automatically, as soon as they receive a complaint - without any real judgement about the issues.
Take it easy. IF and when they call you. Take it serious.
1. I too use AuctionTamer, which I love. I have on occasion used the "thank you" feature, although normally I am just too busy to send such a polite notice.
2. I don't insert the extra regarding our web sites, or such, BUT, our standard signature on ALL e-mail, which you can set up in Outlook Express, has ALL of our web sites listed under my closing signature. It doesn't ask anyone to visit, the information is just there if one cares to use it.
3. I think there is a fine line on you situation regarding “Spam.” Yes, your note is unsolicited, BUT sending a thank you is no different than my telling a customer when they walk in my real shop, “thanks for dropping in, is there any thing special I can help you with.” I think when the person bid, they opened a business relationship – actually it is no different than someone walking up to a flea market vendor or an antique dealer and saying “I’ll give you $10.00 for that statue.” No, you haven’t concluded the transaction, but one has begun at the moment they placed a bid.
4. You might consider just listing your web site under your signature, without actually inviting the bidder/customer/any one else to visit…..AND leaving out the extra invitation to another auction site. I am sure the invitation to BidVille would upset eBay more than anything.
Realize there are some folks who will complain about anything.
As someone else commented, I too, get 100’s of Spam, e-mails a day, and what I began doing at least twice a day I go to my ISP’s e-mail web location, and quickly run down the list of incoming mail and deleting all the Spam before it comes into my Outlook Express. I have found this faster, and easier than letting the junk come in and then having to weed through it. Spam is just a fact of life on line – getting mad, or taking the time every time one gets some to turn the “offender” in, is just adding stress and emotional up evil to one’s life. Obviously, those who have the time to constantly turn in other, have little else to do!
I can understand your point and I agree with it. I didn't look at it from that perspective before and I appreciate your pointing it out.
Would you appreciate a "thank-you" [and BTW did you see the underwear sale we have running this week?] phone call from Walmart every time you used your CC to purchase an item from them? I think not, and IMO what you were doing is no different.
No, not really. I do appreciate knowing that my business is appreciated though. When you walk into a store and you can't get anyone to wait on you, answer a question, or even look at you when they're ringing up your items, it's refreshing to get service that's better than that.
I really didn't think I was pestering people. I never meant to do that.
