posted on July 31, 2001 07:49:15 PMBut KatyD, you had a sales receipt from the seller? Yes?
Morgantown, yes, I had a receipt. BUT I paid for extra insurance to cover the "book" value. When the seller filled out their part of the paperwork, they ascribed the "book" value and provided the insurance ticket covering that "book" value. The sales receipt didn't enter into it. I also had to provide the book, and the clerk photocopied the relevant pages and that was that.
posted on July 31, 2001 07:49:45 PM
I hate to break the news to you morgantowm,
what you paid is not enough proof. Usless you bought it from Southerbys or one of those other high faluten places.
Reputable seller/dealer.....what the heck is that.
Not you and me, well at least not me. To me a Reputable dealer would be from a BM business, not someone selling out of their home.
posted on July 31, 2001 07:50:29 PM
Lots of items sell on eBay below book value. Depression glass etc. I pay $35 for a vase with a $100 book value. I smash the hell out of it and collect $100. Seems like a good way to make a living. YES, I know it's fraud!
posted on July 31, 2001 07:56:13 PMBut KatyD, wouldn't the PO request bill of sale proof first? Book value or apraiser would be used in cases of no bill of sale?
Not necessarily. You do not need to provide a bill of sale. Some things aren't sold anyway. Suppose I want to send an expensive doodad that has been in my family for two generations. It's a gift. There is no bill of sale. I would insure the item for it's "book value". If it were broken, this is the amount that would be reimbursed.
Now sure, if you go to the PO with a box of broken pottery and say you want reimbursement for $1000, and here's the "book value", but hey I only paid $25 on ebay, but I insured it for $1000, well the PO is going to give you a ration of ...well, you know. So why provide the bill of sale to begin with? Just insure it for the full value when you purchase it.
posted on July 31, 2001 07:59:08 PM
I've had many discussions with my postmaster(who is also my boss) about the insurance and what it covers and how.
Like I said it is WORTHLESS on old homemade heirlooms and things so rare or different that their is no value documented.
I know it makes us all feel better to purchase the darn stuff, but when it comes to accually collecting on it, it can be a nightmare.
morgantown,
Other then your receipt for the quilt how can you prove its accually worth $350.00?
I'm curious to know.
posted on July 31, 2001 07:59:31 PM
A key issue here is who buys the insurance. If the seller buys the insurance, and it's shipped under normal terms, title doesn't transfer until it gets to the buyer undamaged. Now, someone explain to me how, as a seller, you can claim something is worth $75 to you if you agreed to sell it for $10???
If it gets run over by the truck, your loss is what you have to refund the buyer, and that's the sale price.
I've done 2 UPS claims, and the check is NOT made out to the buyer, it's made out to the seller.
If it's shipped FOB, the buyer buys the insurance, and is shipping his own merchandise. If it gets run over by the truck HIS loss is the replacement cost.
posted on July 31, 2001 08:02:45 PMLots of items sell on eBay below book value. Depression glass etc. I pay $35 for a vase with a $100 book value. I smash the hell out of it and collect $100. Seems like a good way to make a living. YES, I know it's fraud!
Unfortunately, with the advent of ebay, that scenario has become all to common. That is why UPS won't ship glass anymore, and why USPS insurance had gotten so pricey. WAAY too many fraudulent claims. Items insured and mailed, that were ALREADY broken. And yes, I have received pottery items that I knew damn well were already broken when they were shipped. There's alot of unscrupulous sellers out there.
As far a price manipulation, recently I had a rather rare piece of glass at auction on ebay. The winning buyer wanted me to insure it for $600, which was about $250 more than it's top worth. The buyer had paid top dollar ($350) for it. I have no idea why the buyer wanted to insure it for so much. But I refused, and my reasoning was that incase of loss or breakage, there would be absolutely no way for me to "document" a value or sale price of $600, and thus the PO would most like refuse his claim. After some grumbling, he acceded and only paid for $350 worth of insurance. And it arrived safe and sound so that was that. Still, I did wonder why he wanted to insure it for so much. It made me uncomfortable and suspicious.
posted on July 31, 2001 08:03:43 PM
Packer, the quilt would be worth $350 because that is what I paid for it during normal bidding process through a ligitimate auction house [eBay].
I'd have the eBay auction page, and it could be verified. And a check or MO receipt.
edited to add: I know what you are going to say! What if the auction was manipulated by two bidders to achieve high price. I don't know! Factor it into normal insurance loss and track for excessive claims from individuals?
posted on July 31, 2001 08:07:17 PM
How was it "fraud", Morgantown? I simply insured it for "replacement" value as per USPS accepted documentation. How is that fraud? In addition, I bought insurance to cover breakage or loss for the stated value. That is what insurance is for. To INSURE a specific item of specific VALUE.
Say you insure it for $75. It gets broke and the insurance pays the claim.
Are you going to give the buyer the $75 or their original buy price of $9?
You see, I've only insured for the amount that was paid to me for the item. I guess I don't take the time to think about what the accual value may be. I sell mostly vintage/collectable Glass.
Because USPS insurance pays only TANGIBLE losses. Book values are not tangible or set in stone. You paid x for x, your loss is x not x times 2 or 3 or 4.
How can you claim a value for something you have not realized?
NOPE, PO WILL NOT accept the final bidding page from the auction(eBay). Been there done that. The USPS is VERY ANTE eBay. They will not accept anything eBay related as documentation, not even other CLOSED auctions.
They really have a hard-on for eBay and I'm not joking!
posted on July 31, 2001 08:14:22 PM
Well, here's one for you, Morgantown. Let's say you found a nice little "Jennie" basket at a local thrift shop. (Morgantown of course) And you only paid $5.00 for it! You know your good friend KatyD has been wanting searching for one for the longest time, and her birthday is coming up on August 4th, and so you pack that baby up and send it to her so it will get there in time (Saturday, by the way). How much are you gonna insure it for? $5.00?
posted on July 31, 2001 08:14:23 PM
Oh well, I'll give this one a break. It's an interesting topic though isn't it! Lets get a commerce lawyer in here.
posted on July 31, 2001 08:20:24 PM
[i]The customer must submit acceptable evidence to establish the cost or value of
the article at the time it was mailed.[/i]
Where does this say tangible? By it's own guidelines, the Post Office accepts book "values" as evidence of value. Remember, "cost" does not always equal "value". Sometimes you may want to insure it for the actual COST, and other times you might want to insure it for the actual VALUE. By your reasoning, the ebay bidder who paid $100 for a $20 item, should only be allowed to insure that item for $20 instead of the $100 that they paid the seller. It just doesn't make sense!
I ship alot of "breakable" glass through UPS.
But, they always check the packing and make sure it is packed properly.
I think they try really hard, when it comes to getting your item to its destination in one piece. They just don't want to have to pay the claims.
When I first started selling, I had several packages turned away because packing didn't pass their inspection. I think its a good thing.
posted on July 31, 2001 08:21:35 PM
I'm still here.
Packer they paid all my claims in the past. Not one was refused? I sent a signed bill of sale and the eBay auction number.
Ah! I bet they paid without question because I FILLED OUT THE CLAIM FORM for them. What do you think? Often they are left to fill out those forms and they don't likey.
posted on July 31, 2001 08:21:54 PM
What I don't understand is this started over "she did not want to purchase inurance". The item in question to be insured for 75.00. Later on you state you only ship UPS you do not ship USPS. All shipments with UPS is automatically insured under 100.00 no extra charge. So, why are you charging her extra????
posted on July 31, 2001 08:24:39 PMAre you going to give the buyer the $75 or their original buy price of $9?
That question will seperate the men from the boys.
I have not done a USPS claim, so I don't know exactly how they work, but I know how UPS works. They WILL take an eBay auction page as the "value", and not dispute it. (certain items are excluded)
posted on July 31, 2001 08:28:41 PM
Packer, whether UPS accepts glass for shipment has become a "regional center" decision. Not all of them will. And the actual UPS shipping guidelines state that "fragile" glass items are uninsurable beyond the $100 basic insurance. The thing is, not all the shipping centers adhere to this rule. I used to ship UPS all the time. Now it's a big hassle, although they will still accept glass and pottery, but only upon inspection of packaging. My mother in laws UPS shipping center will not accept extra value insurance for fragile items at all. All of this came about because of the insurance fraud by unscrupulous ebay sellers.
Your absolutely correct. UPS will take the auction page as proof, as I made a claim about 2 years ago and they accepted it.
But msgardenia made me think of something else.
I've bought insurance at the PO and sometimes I'll be mailing so many that I forget the value of the item. Well, I know when its over or under $50. Anyway, on the insurance form he'll(postmaster) puts the highest amount allowed.
So.....that proves my point a little more that it makes NO DIFFERENCE what you pay for the item.
