posted on August 1, 2001 08:25:20 AM
I don't think that people are use to that level of customer service. As the author of the thread mentioned, you can't even get anyone to wait on you when you go to a store these days, forget about trying to get an intelligent answer to your questions...
I have e-mailed people that have lost a bid by a small amount and notified them that I am listing a similar item or relisting the item that they bid on and lost. Is that spam too? I recall telephoning clients when I worked in a department store (years ago) telling them we had a gift with purchase or offered a special promotion. The department store advocated such calls and expected it of their sales people, as long as the customer was treated in a respectful manner. If they didn't appreciate the call, take them off the list! It is that simple.
I think the bidder should have e-mailed the seller asking for no further correspondence, and not report to E-Bay immediately.
I don't think it is spam, no matter how you slice it. Yet, I personally wouldn't spend my time thanking each bidder either. It is a nice thought though...
After reviewing eBay's Spam policy since this incident, yes, they do consider it spam. And if a bidder reports you, you'll probably get a warning just like I did.
You'd think that if a bidder lost your auction, they would appreciate knowing you had more up for sale. But I guess not necessarily.
When I used to work at McDonald's we always had to "suggest" to the customer more items than what they ordered. If they ordered a drink and sandwich, we had to suggest fries. If they'd already ordered all three of those, then we had to push the pies. Never did anyone get pissed about it either, although only a few would actually take us up on the "suggestions."
One good thing to come out of this is that I'll be sending out a lot less emails.
posted on August 1, 2001 09:31:55 AMWhen I used to work at McDonald's we always had to "suggest" to the customer more items than what they ordered.
You know what? I *hate* that more than spam email. When that happens, I just want to grab them by the collar, give them a good shake and tell them that I can read just fine, thank you very much, and if I *wanted* something else from their menu, I'd have ordered it in the first place!!!
posted on August 1, 2001 09:47:09 AM
This is what's wrong with ebaY today. People screaming bloody murder to SafeHarbor over every PERCEIVED misdeed. Didn't we all grow out of the tattletale mentality some time around kindergarten? Well, apparently not. For God's sake people, can't we all just get along without being vindictive and petty?
posted on August 1, 2001 09:58:32 AM
I agree with Mrbusinessman. Everyone is so hypersensitive this days. Yikes!
Brenda, I certainly would buy from you without hesitation. Some of my E-Bay buying transactions had me wondering if I had made a mistake in purchasing from the person. The communication in some cases was terrible. I let buyers know when I receive their payment and when the item is sent out and I hope it is appreciated. It is the way I would like to be treated were I the buyer.
Your retail background has given you an excellent foundation for business. If you give good customer service you will be way ahead, in my opinion. Keep on with what you are doing within E-Bay rules. I am sure that you will have repeat buyers who appreciate your good CS.
posted on August 1, 2001 10:01:40 AMSo again, taking this quote from one of your previous posts, would you be offended if you won one of my auctions and my emails to you regarding the EOA notice, Payment Received, Shipped, had my website address at the bottom with absolutely no text as to what you might find there?
Nope, wouldn't offend me. At this point, we DO have a business relationship.
I'm NOT offended because I don't happen to believe that ebay has a lifetime, exclusive right to my customers. Unfortunately, though, ebay and I seem to differ on this point. Time (and perhaps, a legal challenge) will tell which of us is right.
All that being said, it won't really matter what I think of you including that info in your EOA because I don't have the ability to affect your continued right to sell on ebay. It will come down to whether "ebay" is offended by it.
I still firmly believe anyone who includes any information about their website, their auctions at other places, is "running a risk". If a buyer turns them in to ebay, they'll most likely get a letter like you did.
Now, do I think that's right. Nope. But I fear it will take a legal confrontation w/ebay to get this issue resolved.
Do I think this risk is worth it? I can only answer for me personally. Every seller needs to decide for himself or herself if the risk (albeit a pretty slim one) is worth the potential reward.
If you feel the risk is small or you can afford to take the risk, then do it. If you feel the risk to be a bit greater or you can't afford the potential of getting suspended (and I think this would happen ONLY in the most chronic of circumstances), then don't do it. Pretty simple really.
posted on August 1, 2001 10:07:54 AM
BJ, you're mixing up a lot here. Let's start with "is it spam?" Is it unsolicited? Yes. Is it commercial? Yes. Then it is spam.
C'mon now, be honest. Are you thanking the bidder, or are you hustling your web site? I don't see any difference between what you wrote and any other typical kind of spam with a little fluff added.
Should the bidder be upset? I guess we all have different annoyance thresholds. I wouldn't complain. Ditto should the bidder have warned you first. Bidders aren't diplomats, you nasty rule-breaker, you!
Does eBay do the same thing and get away with it? Definitely.
BTW, I do add links to my web site in my EOA notices. But I already have a business relationship with those customers, and eBay allows it.
posted on August 1, 2001 10:16:39 AM
I already said that I wouldn't turn you in and that I would probably just delete it.
But now to put a different spin on things....say the item I bid on was something that you had identified wrong. Let's say that you called it a toothpick holder but I know what it really is and that it is quite rare.
Now you send me your "friendly" letter and I look at your website and see another one and when I inquire you tell me that you have a whole collection of the "toothpick holders" that you want to sell at a reduced price.
Now I would have to decide what to do. Do I tell you what they are or do I just buy them?
I guess there is opportunity in everything.
posted on August 1, 2001 10:19:11 AM
What you did was technically spam...the link to the website and other auction sites. I would never have turned you in for it, but I can see where it can be annoying to people.
Sending an email to thank someone when they bid is going a bit overboard in my opinion. It would give me the same feeling I get when the counterperson at a fast food resturant tries to "upsell" me on items I didn't order...or the feeling I get when I am "greeted" by a paid employee at WallMart's front door. It sounds forced and contrived and I know the only reason it is being done is to get me to spend more money. It is just "marketing".
None of it is a sincere, spontaneous thing...it is contrived. And it is irritating because I feel an obligation to acknowledge it in some way.
I don't see it as "good customer service". IMO, good customer service in the ebay auction setting is for the seller to treat the customer with respect, accurately describe the item, give the shipping and payment information in the auction, send prompt end of auction notices that gives all details the customer needs to complete the purchase, package the item well and send it promptly, and finally give the customer feedback. Sending a thank you for a bid seems more like a marketing gimmick than good customer service.
I am sure though that you were trying to be a good seller and thought this would be appreciated by her bidders.
[ edited by amy on Aug 1, 2001 10:24 AM ]
posted on August 1, 2001 10:37:23 AM
You probably got turned in by someone who has been turned in themselves, but not for spam ... it's for mentioning a competitive auction site. That's in violation of eBays linking policy, and I wouldn't expect them to take that sitting down. It would be like if, I don't know, K-Mart had an auction site, and you thanked the bidders and told them they could also check out your auctions on the Wal-Mart auction site, too.
eBay's position has always been that the reason you have these bidders to thank is because they facilitated a site that found them for you. They're not interested in having them exposed to other competing sites, at least not at their expense.
And, as other bidders have noted, many people are now very sensitive about being invaded with junk e-mail. It's a problem that's not going to go away, and for some reason it does seem more invasive when it comes to your computer than when it comes in your mail box. Not sure why that is, but I tend to feel the same way.
If I was an experienced eBayer, I wouldn't turn you in to safeharbor, but I'd e-mail you and warn you that you could get cited for sending the e-mail. Plus, as a bidder, I don't form a "bond" with the seller until I'm the winner. I guess I wouldn't want someone contacting me prior to winning; I might just be bidding casually (meaning I wouldn't DIE if I got outbid) and don't want contact. Kind of like when you're in a store and just want to look around, but a salesperson insists on hovering and making conversation when you just want to be left alone.
posted on August 1, 2001 10:53:04 AM
BJ - Wow, I'm amazed by the responses to this thread. It is impossible to compare eBay to a B&M business or real life auction because it is neither. But if that's what we're doing then any good salesman worth her/his salt would send out "thanks for looking" cards or do a followup call. Does it annoy some people? Sure. Does it work? OF COURSE!
There also seems to be disagreement about a person's bid entering them into a relationship with the seller. This is one of the "Tips" from the bid page.
Bidding is fun but... It also means you are entering into a legally binding contract.
So according to eBay you enter a contract by bidding. eBay then provides their email addresses to the seller. Seems that eBay feels there is a relationship at this point.
What amazes me the most is the fact that almost everyone on this board complains about eBay trying to get rid of the Mom and Pop sellers and catering to businesses. We want eBay to stay personal and friendly. But when a good seller shows good salesmanship and customer relations we nail her to the wall for spam. We're ticked off that eBay will not allow us to put links into our auctions but we also think a link in an email is spam. Can't have it both ways people.
I am mostly a Buyer and spend lots of time browsing and shopping on eBay. IF, I was to receive a "thank you for your bid" email for every item I placed a bid, I would never get out of my email in order to shop!
I think there is a problem in logic saying this "thank you for bidding" email is meant as a courtesy or tantamount to good customer service. I see it as clearly a promotion of the Seller's sites, auctions or other offerings. I see it as the Seller entering my email address into their database without my consent. IF, it was meant to be nothing more than a courtesy thank you, then why wasn't it limited to just that--a simple thank you?
No, I wouldn't bother Safe Harbor or take the time to report the Seller even though I view this as spam. However, in the past, I have reported a Seller, who thought I was interested in all their sales because I made the mistake of bidding ONCE on one of their auctions. Repeatedly, I received "Thank you for your bid", "Sorry you didn't win but I have another.." "Look at my new listings", "Seller Appreciation Deals" and "Valued Customer Specials". All of these "courtesies" were in fact unsolicitated and all contained links to not only current eBay auctions but to numerous web sites for purchasing. Some even had special discounts for NOT buying on ebay. Monthly I would receive this junk, and repeatedly I would request the Seller to remove me. The PowerSeller felt I still needed those little gems despite my protest. Finally, Safe Harbor was the only choice I had besides tolerating the "promotional junk".
I do however find the inclusion of links to their websites and/or other auctions in the EOA sig file a wonderful resource and have used those links frequently.
Placing a bid on an auction does not establish a relationship. It is merely throwing something into a shopping cart. Now, if i win that auction, then there is a relationship. Despite the relationship, I don't want mail, phone calls and/or suggestions on what else I may like within that store unless I have elected to sign up to the Seller's mailing list. Again, this is be MY choice as a Buyer and not something a Seller should automatically assume I would be interested in knowing/wanting.
I am aware of other people that do not buy off eBay because they do not want the spam.
Links below the sig file, is a wonderful way not to offend, not to spam yet still get others to take a look at what else you have to offer IF they are interested. Suggestive instructions to "click here to go to...." is not necessary.
SPAM is spam no matter how it is disguised and no matter the intent.
posted on August 1, 2001 11:40:45 AM
Now, I'm asking for your honest opinions, is that offensive?
YES.
Would you turn a seller in for sending that?
Perhaps not the first time. By the third time it happened, YES absolutely without a doubt.
Similar situation:
I have a buyer to whom I have already replied as to when his package was shipped. (Before I even had a chance to notify him.) It was shipped by media/bookrate (as stated in the auction) on Friday (today is Wed) within 24 hours of receipt of his payment.
Everyday since Saturday I have received between 2 and 5 e-mails A DAY saying:
"I have not received this item. If it has been sent please disregard this message. Peace."
I am getting real close to giving him a peace of something.
T
posted on August 1, 2001 11:40:47 AMmrpotatoheadd,
I agree, but if you didn't do it, then there went your job.
And thank you, MrBusinessMan and daleeric.
No, Eventer, for me it's not worth the risk. I have no intention of continuing to send emails to anyone who hasn't actually won the auction. Let someone else with deeper pockets and more time on their hands do it.
C'mon now, be honest. Are you thanking the bidder, or are you hustling your web site? I don't see any difference between what you wrote and any other typical kind of spam with a little fluff added.
twinsoft,
You skeptic you! The answer is both.
Oh yes, people, my website is such a threat to eBay. Why, my gosh, the first link on it is...are you ready for this... A LINK TO MY EBAY AUCTIONS!!! I'M SO DISPICABLE!!!!
Then there are links to auctions on BidVille and Yahoo (if I even have any up at those sites at that time).
Actually, people don't seem to cross-buy anyway. I already mentioned (back on what page I don't remember now) that I made 1 additional known sale because of the email I sent, but it was still an eBay sale. So my feeble attempt to drive bidders to look at my stuff at BidVille or Yahoo didn't work anyway.
kiara,
You'd be within your rights to just buy them. You would have no obligation to inform me of my costly mistake.
amy,
Thanks for your kind perspective. I didn't really think someone would react in a hostile fashion to the email and if it was taken that way, I would have thought it could have been handled privately.
You probably got turned in by someone who has been turned in themselves, but not for spam ... it's for mentioning a competitive auction site. That's in violation of eBays linking policy, and I wouldn't expect them to take that sitting down.
sunnyjo
I'll go along with you on the mention of BidVille. But the email part has nothing to do with eBay's linking policy, since this was an email and not a link in my auction, if I'm understand your meaning right. I'm well aware that I can't place links in my auction pages that would lead bidders to other auction sites. And this bidder has just been registered since April of this year and has just now put up a couple of auctions. So she hasn't been selling long enough to have been turned in for anything.
What amazes me the most is the fact that almost everyone on this board complains about eBay trying to get rid of the Mom and Pop sellers and catering to businesses. We want eBay to stay personal and friendly. But when a good seller shows good salesmanship and customer relations we nail her to the wall for spam. We're ticked off that eBay will not allow us to put links into our auctions but we also think a link in an email is spam. Can't have it both ways people.
Thanks, Lora, you said it much better than I could have.
BTW, for the record, I do not sell anything from my website. It strictly has links to my auctions, again with eBay first on the list. I have no storefront, shopping cart, etc. It's strictly an informational site. I also do not contact bidders and offer to sell similar or identical items to them outside of an auction site.
posted on August 1, 2001 11:47:10 AMI see it as the Seller entering my email address into their database without my consent
AuctionTamer (and probably the majority of auction software or web-based systems) automatically captures all user ID's and email addresses, regardless of whether someone has won the auction or not. If you place a bid, that information gets pulled into a file whether anyone likes it or not, including me.
I do not sit at my computer looking up the bidders' email addresses and entering them manually into some database. And if a seller wanted to take that kind of trouble to do so, you couldn't stop them anyway. The only way to prevent someone from having your email address is to not bid on the auction. It's that simple.
posted on August 1, 2001 12:12:40 PM
This thread reminds me of all the spam I've been getting since ebay went to their new policy of having to go through eBay itself to "ask the seller a question". I thought that would cut down on spam, but now I just get blatant spam with ebay's "no spam" commentary at the bottom of the email! Like the guy who appeared to be asking a question about an auction but really was trying to get me to pay him to design a website for me. Arghhh! A couple of minutes of my day wasted on that!
posted on August 1, 2001 01:11:22 PMIf my emails to my winning bidders and potential bidders contain a link to my website with absolutely no text directing the recipient to click on it to see more auction items on eBay or any other auction site, would you be offended?
absolutely not. and if i thought you usually sold in the category i'm most interested in, you can bet i'd click on your web site link. so your sig file could be something like:
it's a dead issue now, but i wonder if your email would be 'ebay approved' if you'd just thanked them for their bid and told them to not hesitate to ask any questions, assuring them their questions would be answered. i agree that a relationship has been entered into when i place a bid - my intension is to buy the item; i may or may not win it, but i wouldn't be bidding if i had no intention to buy it ... or i shouldn't (suddenly thinking of sport bidders.)
I have e-mailed people that have lost a bid by a small amount and notified them that I am listing a similar item or relisting the item that they bid on and lost. Is that spam too?
i don't think that would be considered spam. at least not by ebay. here's how i think ebay defines not spam/spam
not spam = anything that might bring buyers to their site to buy
spam = anything that might cause a buyer to buy something somewhere other than ebay
... oops, just read bj's reply. guess it is spam.
Everyday since Saturday I have received between 2 and 5 e-mails A DAY saying: "I have not received this item. If it has been sent please disregard this message. Peace."
how irritating!!
kittyx3
ubb
[ edited by kittykittykitty on Aug 1, 2001 01:13 PM ]
posted on August 1, 2001 01:31:59 PMit's a dead issue now, but i wonder if your email would be 'ebay approved' if you'd just thanked them for their bid and told them to not hesitate to ask any questions, assuring them their questions would be answered.
I wondered this same thing, too. I bet if the link to Bidville hadn't been in there, ebay wouldn't have been able to consider it "commercial".
posted on August 1, 2001 02:27:28 PM
is this kind of like a flirtatious lady who gets attention from guys she is slightly interested in?
she flirts and then she complains to the cop
posted on August 1, 2001 02:33:03 PM
Truthfully, if I had gotten this email, I would have thought to myself..."how enterprising," and clicked on the website. Then spent some time considering if I should do the same.
I'm considering now... You bet it's marketing...I do it non-stop to make a living in my business. I see no shame in it, for heaven's sake...I sell antiques for a living... They don't just jump out the door by themselves and bring cash back...
posted on August 1, 2001 04:09:27 PMThey're not interested in having them exposed to other competing sites, at least not at their expense.
This is NOT exposing buyers to other sites at ebaY's expense. The seller pays a listing fee AND a final value fee to ebaY in exchange for the right to list items for sale/auction on ebaY's VENUE. Once a bid is placed, by ebaY's own definition in their TOS, the bidder has entered into a legally binding contract with the seller. NOT with ebaY. ebaY is only a VENUE, remember? As a venue, ebaY (supposedly) makes their money from the seller in listing and FVF fees.
When a customer at a flea market buys an item from a vendor, he is buying from an individual seller, NOT the flea market. The flea market is only the VENUE, for which the seller pays the flea market a fee to set up in. The customer now belongs to the vendor, NOT the flea market. The vendor can invite the buyer to her store or to her booth at another flea market and the flea market has no say in the matter. If they did, they wouldn't be only a venue. ebaY has no hold on the bidders whatsoever once a bid is placed. I've said it before and I'll say it again: ebaY is flirting with having their "venue" status stripped away by the courts, and they're only one well-placed lawsuit away from having it done to them.
posted on August 1, 2001 04:54:59 PM
I believe this is the eCommerce version of civil disobedience. I'm all for it. As I said on another thread...I don't work for eBay...I pay them to work for me.
You bet it's marketing...I do it non-stop to make a living in my business. I see no shame in it, for heaven's sake...I sell antiques for a living...
They don't just jump out the door by themselves and bring cash back...