For someone who believes that this subject has been debated endlessly, you're sure doing your part to keep it going.
Sorry if I hurt your feelings by not addressing you specifically earlier. I believe I've missed a few other people, but I don't see them getting bent out of shape about it.
Actually, I thought that perhaps my response in my post of August 1, 2001 11:40:47 AM on page 3 pretty much answered the question of whether You knew you were spamming, right? At least sort of? Bending the rules?.
If this one doesn't get answered, then that's an answer in itself.
I just did.
Oh, and since loosecannon chooses to question why I didn't answer, I'd like to set the rest of your minds at ease. Yes, it's been several hours since my last post, which was around shortly before 3:00 PM Eastern Time. However, at that time I needed to take my kids to an afternoon activity, then when we returned home I had to start dinner. And then my husband came home and we had to sit down and eat dinner. And then I had to do dishes. And then my son wanted me to spend some time outside with him and his sister. Not that all of these details are important, but I'm giving them as proof that I genuinely was busy with family life stuff and not trying to run away from the situation.
I have nothing to hide and I'll get around to answering people's questions when I have the time, not when they expect it.
And from the numerous discussions that have taken place on these boards every time eBay tweaks the linking policy, I remember a concensus of opinion that eBay could not control what we put in our emails to our bidders, so that while sellers might have to give up the links in the auction ads, they could still attempt to direct traffic to their websites through email.
Are there any sellers out there willing to admit that they might insert a little line in their EOA notices that they also have auctions running at...wherever? If so, are these sellers guilty of spamming customers they have a legitimate right to send email to in order to complete their eBay transaction?
I think it's obvious to everyone who's been participated and to those just lurking that I've already admitted numerous times in different ways that I crossed the line by contacting a bidder who hadn't yet won the auction. To me, that was the biggest part that got me in trouble. The second biggest part was mentioning that my website also contains links to BidVille.
I've already inserted my website address as a sig file in Outlook. That should take care of the problem and no one should be able to accuse me of spamming by sending my winning bidders their EOA notice, Paid notice, and Shipped notice with my website address at the bottom, no text concerning it whatsoever.
Right now, if you care, it's about 8:45 PM and I'll have to get the kids to bed shortly. Then it's time for a relaxing hour or so with hubby in front of the TV before bedtime.
So, please don't take offense if you ask a question and I don't answer. We're winding down for the night over here.
posted on August 1, 2001 06:53:21 PM
BJ, I don't think anyone's accusing you of "running away" from this thread. LOL! You're getting up on a soapbox and insisting you did nothing wrong. Actually, parts of what you did were relatively wrong. In other words, not 100% kosher. 95% kosher, maybe.
posted on August 1, 2001 06:59:41 PM
You set yourself up as the villain with your first post. Let me paraphrase:
"I've been doing this for months! Sales are really up. Now somebody complained. I can't believe it! Would you have snitched?"
I tried to avoid saying this. I didn't want to embarass him, but I agree with Loosecannon. This is an open and shut case. But parts of it have merit on their own. I think Microbes has the right idea in starting a new thread along more general lines.
posted on August 1, 2001 08:16:51 PM
Is your id the same as on Ebay? If so when you look back at a month of your sales I see no increase in bidders. 90% of your auctions win by 1 bid or have no winners. I'm not trying to be mean but I don't see how you say the bidding increased. I looked because I thought your idea maybe modified without the link to your website might work but....I can see no evidence of it.
posted on August 1, 2001 08:46:11 PMI'm wondering what would have been the simple harm though in just communicating with me directly instead of going behind my back and running to SafeHarbor first.
I'll try to answer this one.
I did that for a while. Responded to seller, explaining politely that I felt that additional solicitation should be presumed unwelcome. This was a prolific seller, who listed ten items I was interested in every week. I appreciated his informative listing style, and his good feedback rating.
What I got back was a "ok, I won't bother YOU any more, since you seem overly sensitive".
I replied to the effect that eBay would consider his emails spam, and so did I.
He replied with "I told you I wasn't going to bother you any more".
That was the last communication I ever had with a seller over spam. Safeharbor handled all the spam communication since that.
posted on August 1, 2001 08:58:12 PM
I would have most definitely considered your email spam - and would have been quite annoyed by it. If I wanted to view your other eBay items, I could do so easily without your directing me to your list. As far as your website or Bidville, that's where the real spam comes in. There's a good chance that I would have sent your email to safeharbor.
posted on August 1, 2001 10:25:15 PM
Wow, this could go on forever. I think you have said everything that could be said again and again. I wish I would have taken a count as to was she/he wrong or right but in the end it probably would be 50/50. According to ebay rules you are NOT supposed to do it BUT how many go by the rules. I have been surfing ebay just checking and there are many auctions that direct you to their website and also others websites. For some of you posters there is a life outside of ebay, for some there is not so let us not forget that ebay is an auction and you don't have to be there all the time. AW is just a discussion board to discuss interesting and not so interesting items. I myself do not have the time to send safeharbor emails because someone is doing something wrong. We learned this as kids. if you can remember that far back that tadeling is wrong but ebay is promoting it so they don't have to go look for themselves. Let ebay do their work and let us do ours which is to launch auctions. I saw nothing offensive about that email and if I had I would've just backed out of it. Goodnite all...
It all depends on what you're accustomed to in the category you sell in. And we all know that sales slump over the summer and usually someone starts a thread about it.
If a bidding war to one seller means around 20 bids, then no, you wouldn't consider something like 4 or 6 or even 10 a bidding war. But when you're accustomed to selling your items for 1 bid (when they do sell), then when you do get multiple bids, it's a nice feeling.
What a lot of you are focusing on is whether or not I did something wrong. I've already answered that question for myself, but some of you seem to like to kick a person repeatedly when they're already down.
And loosecannon, why the repeated posts when you already think the subject has been debated endlessly already?
Didn't some of you read where I said I wasn't doing this anymore? I'm trying to let this post die a natural death instead of requesting the moderators to lock it because, so far, no one has jumped in with name-calling or anything overly nasty like that. And I felt the discussion might prove helpful to both sellers and buyers.
Next time we have a thread where a seller is screaming because a buyer dared to leave a neg without contacting him/her first, I hope you'll all remember some of the responses here in this situation. The few of you that are jumping on me for being wrong and are glad that the bidder reported me will probably be the first ones to cry foul over a buyer leaving a neg without trying to work it out with the seller first!
In this case, the bidder was out nothing. No damaged merchandise, no money spent without product being received, no wondering where the merchandise was after 3 weeks or more after paying for it, none of the usual stuff we see that are genuine problems for buyers.
Just trying to put this in perspective. I really feel sorry for people who feel they have to report someone over one email. To me, that is the issue. There's nothing more to say.
So, if anyone wants to continue debating this endlessly, go right ahead. I've got better things to do.
posted on August 2, 2001 06:00:39 AM
I am curious to see if anyone thinks this is ok by E-bay rules?
When I ship an Item I put the following in the note.
Most buyers respond and ask me to give them a heads up and from that I create a list and when I list an item I send them all a "spam" letter.
This has improved my repeat business.
Thank you again for your business!
Your item , %%AuctionId%%, %%Title%%, was shipped today and should arrive in the next several days.
I will continue to give you a "Heads Up" when I list similar items. Please let
me know if that is ok with you. If you would prefer that I don't do this please let me know and I will honor your request.
When your item arrives, assuming you are satisfied, can I please ask
you to give me a positive feedback? I have already done yours.
I will continue to give you a "Heads Up" when I list similar items. Please let me know if that is ok with you. If you would prefer that I don't do this please let me know and I will honor your request.
It sounds to me like you are asking your buyers to "opt out", not "opt in"?
Perhaps it would be better if you worded it this way.
If you would prefer that I give you a "Heads Up" when I list similar items, please let me know via email.
That way you aren't "forcing" them to email you if they prefer NOT to receive an email from you, AND you have a record of that email just in case someone decides to forward your "heads up" email to safe harbor.
posted on August 2, 2001 01:24:06 PM
I already posted this in Pricefixer's other thread, but that doesn't seem to be getting too much action. So I'll repost here, but I'll include some parts of the email that pertained to my personal situation so that it might help others.
Quote begins:
Regarding "bid confirmations", this is one of the options members may
choose if they want to receive these notices from eBay.
In addition, you have included information about your web page and other
items.
These cause the email you sent to be of a commercial and unrequested
nature.
For more information, please see below:
When you registered you may not have been aware that we have a policy
about sending unsolicited email to others. Here is the page where you
can view this information (please see "section 5":
Spam is considered as any email of a commercial nature sent to email
accounts from which specific permission has not been given to send such
information.
This includes those who are not members of eBay, eBay users who may have
bid on your past auctions or on others' auction items similar to yours.
This also includes using the "Send this auction to a friend" option to
send advertisements of auctions to users you do not know. Though some
users do not mind receiving such email, others send reports of this type
of "spam" every day. Once we receive these reports, we send out notices
explaining this policy to the seller to avoid confusion in the future.
Please allow me to go into detail of the alert, and offer some possible
solutions to avoid this violation in the future.
If you want to send emails to notify members about your auctions,
sending email to others, one at a time, asking their permission to put
them on your mailing list, is acceptable as long as each email is:
1. Free of any links - This includes links to eBay or to your personal
website.
2. Free of pricing specifics or generalizations - this includes
comparisons or "less than" quotes.
3. Free of item listings - this includes your giving your user ID, your
auction number and particularly any clickable link to your eBay auction
page.
4. Sent one at a time, with the option to be added to your list (and not
with the option to be removed).
You could word an email request like this:
"Hello! We are putting together a mailing list of people who have shown
an interest in [your typical type of item(s), i.e., beanie babies, rare
books, vintage clothing, etc. - must be very general], as we often have
this type of item up for auction. If you would like to be on our mailing
list to receive notices of the great items we have put up for auction on
eBay, please let us know by replying to this email."
Remember to eliminate any mention of item numbers or prices. Also, it is
best to make sure you include the words "mailing list" in this email, so
the intent of your email is clear to the recipient. If a user does NOT
reply to your message, you must assume they are not interested in
receiving your commercial email.
Another option you may want to consider is to advertise your auctions
and relevant information on your "About Me" page. You can do this by
putting something in your future auction listings to direct bidders to
your page such as, "Check out our About Me page for more information on
future auctions." This will advertise to bidders who are interested in
the type of items you offer what other items you have available.
I hope this addresses your concerns, and that you enjoy your use of
eBay.
Regards,
XXX
eBay SafeHarbor
Investigations Team
----------------------------------------------
eBay
Your Personal Trading Community (tm)
Quote ends.
In short, you can't send buyers any emails for things they have the right to opt-out of in their eBay preferences. This means bid notices (as I did), and outbid notices (as Jim does). This is considered unsolicited, even if they're one of your bidders.
You can't include links to your website because then it's commercial. So that means you can't even send your winning bidders a link to your website in your EOA notices, the way I'm understanding this, unless you get their permission ahead of time to include the website link in the EOA notice.
Unless someone else has a different interpretation...
posted on August 2, 2001 04:42:28 PM
I wouldn't really appreciate an e-mail like that. I already get enough spam e-mail as it is.
However, to just turn you in for spam would go to far to me. If I really felt annoyed by something like that, I am more likely to mail the seller and tell them that I don't appreciate getting e-mails to thank me for my bid. This way they can become aware of the fact that they are actually annoying people by doing that. And maybe stop sending out those e-mails. I know you only meant it as a nice, polite gesture. Just sometimes too much can be a bit too much.
Btw, I wouldn't really call it spam so much, but definately unwanted e-mail.
posted on August 2, 2001 06:47:32 PM
please remember that ebay's definition of spam is NOT what is used by most of the ISPs, system admins, etc. nor when the definition was 'created'.
UCE (unsolicited commercial email) is what most of the spam is, but can be spam without being commercial (ie. the "please say a prayer / send a card for craig sherwold"...
basically, if something is opt-out, it's spam.
and ebay's comments about "your bidders aren't your bidders" is just plain - oh, i don't know - stupid seems too light a word.
***
(and) after thinking /reading about it a little bit, i can understand why people would consider your follow-up message spam as a sealed transaction hadn't taken place. thanks to those people for well-versed pieces.
posted on August 2, 2001 09:00:23 PM
3. Free of item listings - this includes your giving your user ID, your auction number and particularly any clickable link to your eBay auction page.
?!!
wait a minute. you mean i can't mention my user id? that's absolutely ridiculous. and if i'm emailing a past buyer to tell them what else i've got up, i can't make it easier for them by giving them a link to my listings?! i have actual relationships with a number of my buyers. no way am i not going to continue emailing them about items i've put up (i sell clothing) that i think they'd like and will fit them. er, when i remember to <g>. ok, i've gotten permission from them to notify them, so perhaps this isn't applicable, come to think of it. but not being able to mention your user id, that's ... [insert appropriate word].
bj,
thanks for posting this.
kittyx3
ubb
[ edited by kittykittykitty on Aug 2, 2001 09:02 PM ]
posted on August 3, 2001 12:09:49 AM
I would say it is borderline. If I have the choice, I would turn this option off and not send emails to losing bidders.
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