posted on August 9, 2001 08:58:50 AM newa few thousand names and email addresses which would be of great interest to other sellers that sell my type of item. Why should you think I won't sell it myself?
I would think you would be shooting yourself in the foot. But plenty of people have shot themselves in the foot....
posted on August 9, 2001 09:17:43 AM new
Anyone who does not wish to enter information on an automated form does not have to. They can simply email the seller with their information. These auction services are necessary for several reasons. I use AW for organization and to expedite the sales process from start to finish. If you sell a lot of merchandise on eBay and or other auction sites these services are invaluable.
Once a sale is complete I want to ship the item as soon as possible. If a buyer completes this simple to use form I then have their name, address, shipping choice and payment method. If the buyer wishes not to complete the form they respond via email and I in turn complete the form. Once payment is received the invoice is printed with all pertinent info for that auction.
These services ARE for both the buyer and seller. It goes way beyond filling out just the winning bidder form. These services expedite all facets of the auction and make it possible to coordinate and efficiently conduct hundreds or thousands of auctions at a time. I guarantee you that my service and communication is superior to most business websites. This is accomplished by utilizing a service like AW.
posted on August 9, 2001 09:44:25 AM new
I never used the Andale forms and don't know how they work. I had tried AW post-auction management back in the free days and stopped using it because most of my bidders didn't like it. I recently gave the AW PSM another trial (free listing day) and had a less than 25% bidder follow-thru on the system--to me that speaks loud and clear about my bidders' preferences, and so I won't be using any online system anymore. (And I don't even want to discuss the numerous foul-ups on shipping charges...)
I think part of the problem for me is the slowness of the online process--maybe if you're fortunate enough to have DSL or cable, the endless clicking back and forth and waiting for pages to load works okay, but I'm stuck with a phone modem out in a rural area and can't upgrade. Privacy issues aside, I can understand why bidders with similar modem limitations would not like the on-line forms.
I disliked the enforced necessity of managing two separate types of bidders--those who would use the system, and those who wouldn't, which seemed to require a lot more effort on my part than having everything come in one way. It took me much, much longer to keep paging through my closed listings to see who had responded through the system, and then going back again and again to click on the PSM keys for those who responded via email so I could enter their info. It took me WAY longer to do the various notifications via clicking here, waiting for loading, clicking there, waiting for sending, than it does with my "regular" system I use to, er, tame my auctions .
Plus I like a lot more flexibility in my WBNs that a somewhat rigid system allows, and really like having a lot more information on one page than I got with the AW system--just a personal preference, no diss to anyone who loves AW. For all I know these are inherent to all types of online management systems, and what works great for some folks just doesn't float the boat for others.
posted on August 9, 2001 11:19:42 AM new
I think the main question here is "are the auction sites terms of service being followed" Most of the sites have no problems with 3rd party auction services " automated WBN's etc. The TOS' says buyer and seller should establish contact - dosnt say how. Automated tools help sellers list and track more auctions - With the increased Fees were seeing from some sites - It takes more auctions just to break even. If you sell only a few items and have time to do everything manually..... go for it. The personal touch is nicer but are you willing to pay what it cost the seller to provide ?
posted on August 10, 2001 08:31:11 AM new
Ever since I noted the incidents of hackers obtaining thousands of credit card numbers from places like CDNow and Amazon, I am especially careful about how my credit card information is online. I also don't appreciate receiving phone calls or junk mail because I bought something somewhere. So when I see an auction that uses the automated services, I opt out -- either by not bidding or by contacting the seller before I bid. So far, 100% of sellers have been willing to accomodate my expressed request to not have my name and address input into the third party online services. Occasionally I'll bid on an auction that uses those services but it wasn't obvious by the auction. When I realize that when I get the automated form email, I then contact the seller and explain my position. All of them have been accomodating, as well. (I would not have bid or would have cleared it with them in advance if I'd been able to tell it was a third party system.)
I can understand the sellers' need to use automated programs. Some can't handle the process adequately, manually. Others have organizational or memory problems. I don't mind that they need to use an automatic service. Just as long as they don't put my information on any online web site, I am fine with it.
Regardless of what anyone else believes in regards to privacy, I have the right to take whatever steps I feel are necessary to try to protect myself.
Violetta
(Not known by this nickname anywhere but here.)
posted on August 10, 2001 08:47:59 AM new
Some of us aren't aware that an auction uses these (HORRIBLE!) forms. Every auction that I have won that used them didn't have info on the auction that clued me in about having to fill out the intrusive form.
I, obviously, find them offensive over all. Usually you can just ignore the form and pay and email the seller as you usually would. Recently I won an auction that had one of these systems and, as usual, I ignored it and paid for the auction and also emailed the seller with my info, etc. Well, I kept getting more & more urgent notices from the seller (obviously automated) indicating that I needed to pay, blah blah blah...It took about 10 days to get it straightened out and FINALLY I actually got an email from the seller (very impolitely...It was obviously a putout for him to email me) advising me that pmt was received. So now I just try to be more cognicent of the auctions that use one of these systems and don't bid.
On the other hand, I fully understand that many high volume sellers feel the need to use these services and I understand that. But the bottom line is that many buyers are offended and affronted by the forms.
posted on August 10, 2001 08:59:34 AM new
I use AW and it makes things go much smoother for buyer AND seller. In most cases.
However, there will be some buyers who don't want to fill out their information (and I don't take credit cards directly, so that's not a problem).
I do NOT provide my mailing address in my EOA notice. The buyer MUST contact me in some way, shape, or form to let me know they want to pay via Money Order/Personal Check. This is so they get a correct address, correct, total, etc. I don't want someone just firing me off a check they figured for themselves (especially if internation shipping is involved).
That said, most of my contact with a customer is personal. The initial contact and notifcation is a convenience for both parties -- and usually happens when I'm asleep .
I do use a form letter to let them know their item has shipped, however.
But, for my EOA form, I do get some people emailing me directly their information and that's fine. I just save the emails and come shipping prep day, I pick up the item and figure who it's going to.
posted on August 10, 2001 01:29:44 PM new
IF the buyer emailed the seller and asked that their information NOT be put in an online automated auction service database and the seller 'said' they would not, would the buyer ultimately know whether the seller used the automated auction service or not?
IF the buyer receives their item with a printed mailing label or invoice that is produced from some form of automated auction service does that mean that the seller deleted the information when they were done with it or not?
IF the buyer provides any shipping information at all to ANY seller does the buyer know beyond a doubt what happens to that information (regardless of what the seller tells the buyer)?
posted on August 10, 2001 05:12:22 PM new
It's unethical for a seller not to disclose that they use an auction management service in their listings. And it nutzo for a buyer to think that they have the right to bully a seller into wrecking their accounting/organizational system just to accomadate them. Some of us actually obey the law, report our income, and pay all manner of taxes. Not to mention being liable for recalling all transaction details in case of a chargeback or mail fraud accusation.
It's amazing to me that buyers want professionalism when it comes to processing their payments and shipments, but expect the seller to act like a garage sale in every other respect. Wether you are part time or not a seller has all the responsibilities and risks of a real business. I prefer to act like one. If you don't like it push on, I'm not interested in being converted to your views on privacy issues. Your best bet would be to unplug the box you're looking at right now. Every service I've seen has a Privacy Policy that forbids what they are being accused of and no one here can prove that those policies have been violated. Most web sites have some such policy now. If you are so worried about being anonymous the web is exactly the wrong place for you to be since most of the ways to get your info are far more sophisticated than the scenarios put forward here.
As far as your credit card info, you have a much better chance of losing control of that at a local restaurant.
The poster who implied above that sellers who use a service are somehow mentally challenged should come into the 21st century. Manual recordkeeping has been fast approaching the dust bin of history for a looong time now. As hard as it is for some to imagine some actually want to make money and any rudimentary course on business will tell you to minimize the time spent on manual tasks that can be more efficiently automated. If you are so hard up for friends that you need constant stroking then stick to garage sales.
posted on August 10, 2001 05:20:04 PM newEvery service I've seen has a Privacy Policy that forbids what they are being accused of and no one here can prove that those policies have been violated.
So far, I haven't noticed anybody claiming that any privacy policies have been violated.
However... once posted, can anyone here prove that those privacy policies have never been changed?
Personally, I think it's presumptuous for anybody to assume that any particular level of privacy (or lack thereof) is appropriate for another.
posted on August 10, 2001 05:32:40 PM new
mrpotatoheadd
You don't get it do you? The buyer has the choice of wether to bid or not. Anyone so obsessed with being anonymous would be able to recognize the use of a service, I do. But a BUSINESS has to keep records, If you don't believe me ask the IRS. Non-hobby sellers don't just do this for the personal satisfaction of catering to a buyers every whim at their own expense.
These privacy wonks would presumably have you burn every trace of the transaction immediately after shipping. The problem with that of course is that the seller is still responsible/liable even after the item is received. How many people are accused of not shipping a month later? Quality of merchandise disputes? Stolen credit cards being used? You can drown in paper if you want or spend valuable listing time slaving over a spreadsheet but I'll spend mine listing items that people want to buy. Actually if these services didn't exist these people would have less to go on about because I guarntee they would have a LOT less to bid on because it wouldn't be worth it for many sellers to list just for the ego boost of accomodating a few buyers every whim. I guess none of these people have never shopped online before other than on eBay.
posted on August 10, 2001 06:41:10 PM new
From ebay privacy policy (boldings added):
Your Use of Other Users' Information.
In order to facilitate interaction among all eBay community members, our service allows you limited access other users' contact information. As a seller you have access to the User ID, email address and other contact information of the buyer or winning bidder(s), and as a buyer or winning bidder you have access to the User ID, email address and other contact information of the seller.
By entering into our User Agreement, you agree that, with respect to other users' personally identifiable information that you obtain through the Site or through an eBay-related communication or eBay-facilitated transaction, eBay hereby grants to you a license to use such information only for: (a) eBay-related communications that are not unsolicited commercial messages, (b) using services offered through eBay (e.g. escrow, insurance, shipping and fraud complaints), and (c) any other purpose that such user expressly agrees to after adequate disclosure of the purpose(s). In all cases, you must give users an opportunity to remove themselves from your database and a chance to review what information you have collected about them. In addition, under no circumstances, except as defined in this Section, can you disclose personally identifiable information about another user to any third party without our consent and the consent of such other user after adequate disclosure. Note that law enforcement personnel, VeRO program participants, and other rights holders are given different rights with respect to information they access.
eBay and our users do not tolerate spam. Therefore, without limiting the foregoing, you are not licensed to add an eBay user, even a user who has purchased an item from you, to your mail list (email or physical mail) without their express consent after adequate disclosure. To report eBay related spam to eBay, please send an email to [email protected].
posted on August 10, 2001 06:56:01 PM new
bemused, I really don't understand the lack of putting yourself in the Buyer's position.
#1, most listings I see, do not bother to tell the potential bidder that by virtue of placing a bid, they are hereby agreeing to enter their data into XYZ website.
#2, most Buyers are unaware exactly what services/benefits AW, Andale or any other Auction management site offers the Sellers. Some believe it is for listing purposes only. Others realize it is for listing and for automated EOA notices. Just because a listing has a link on it identifying that it was LISTED with the assistance of a Auction management service doesn't necessarily denote that the bidder will HAVE TO agree to enter their info into that database.
#3 IF a Seller is so hellbent on using the management service to track buyer's info and it is an absolute requirement for the Buyer to enter their info at that website, does not the Seller have a responsibility/obligation to inform the Bidders of such a fact in the TOS? I certainly would think so. If a Seller is going to be so inflexible I think it is worth a mention
#4 Let's see, I buy a widget from a Seller thinking I am dealing with an individual vs. some corporate entity. eBay has my info. I MUST supply info to Seller, to Seller's Auction Management Service Provider, then I can go to Paypal where more info is provided, the Seller uses online postage so my info is entered again--oh yes, and U-Pic offers discounted insurance so lets enter it again...uggghh, does it ever end?!?! ALL i wanted was the widget & to complete my transaction as quickly & smoothly as possible.
Face it folks, purchasing online can be intrusive. I can go to an outlet mall and buy something, hand the clerk my credit card and she doesn't want me to fill out a form, nor does she know my mailing address and phone number. I simply "check out" without being checked out!
Many people don't have fast modems or computers that function correctly on these websites. It is extremely frustrating to fill out these forms with lag problems, modem slowing, java script errors etc. Shoot, it should not take 20 minutes to fill out the Seller's form--and it can on occasion---then off to Billpoint or Paypal for more lag & forms!
The Seller who makes demands of Buyers to fill out all these forms for their conveneince certainly should advise the Buyer that they will be required to do so in the auction listing!
One of my favorite Sellers whom I had multiple purchases with over a long period switched to Andale once she became a "PowerSeller". I will no longer conduct business with her because I absolutely refuse to enter info into that horrendous website.
A Seller that exhibits understanding to just how concerning and frustrating this all is for a Buyer and will accomodate their request to accept the info via email, will have a repeat Buyer in me!
So, Sellers, be bold & responsible: IF you require a 3rd Party Service ONLY, put that in your listings and see how it effects your sales.
posted on August 10, 2001 07:18:21 PM new
It appears contrary to the above policy for any seller to add the condition that "the potential bidder by virtue of placing a bid, is agreeing to enter their data into XYZ website."
posted on August 10, 2001 07:27:18 PM new
Well, some sellers are real busy, so it's probably okay for them to skip the parts of eBay's policies that they find inconvenient.
I'll bet they expect bidders to follow the section of the policy that says they should pay for the items they have winning bids on, though.
posted on August 10, 2001 07:45:50 PM new
figmente,
Yes it certainly does appear to be against ebay's policy! Thanks for posting & highlighting that little tidbit. I will be sure to copy it to those Sellers that demand one post info to a service provider of their choice.
I imagine however, most Seller's wouldn't dare post that in their auction's TOS rather wait and do it out of eBay's sight via the EOA notice.
posted on August 10, 2001 08:17:23 PM new
I hate those forms. The first time I received one it took me over fifteen minutes of my time to fill in all the blanks. After that I ignored them, replied directly to the seller.
Well guess what happened with that one time I filled in the form and got inputted into the seller's data base. Over a two-week period I got deluged with virus or worm emails from that seller, you know those emails that arrive with nonsense text and exe or other attachments. I forwarded each and every one of those emails on to Safe Harbor. I believe Safe Harbor put the seller on a 30-day suspension because of all of the buyers who were complaining.
One clue is never to bid on auctions with those high-volume sellers, the ones that give you a link to look at all of their other auctions, you click on the link and there are 20 or more pages of auctions, sometimes more than 50 pages. Yeah, sure, try to find something in that maze. Forget it.
I can't always tell if a seller is going to send me a form. If I can determine that fact, I don't bid. If I get the form, I ignore it.
posted on August 10, 2001 08:18:38 PM new
Regardless of what you think of these forms, let's not go over the edge here. Requiring the use of these services is clearly not a violation of eBay policy. Otherwise, don't you think we'd have heard about it by now?
The policy statement posted here governs the use of the data, not the collection or storage of it.
As long as the user, and/or the service, is not using the data in a manner inconsistent with eBay's policy (ie they are not 'spamming'), and an opt-out is provided, then everything is peachy.
[ unwanted smilies ]
[ edited by wbbell on Aug 10, 2001 08:34 PM ]
posted on August 10, 2001 08:38:13 PM new
wbbell wrote:
The policy statement posted here governs the use of the data, not the collection or storage of it.
Hmmm, I read the eBay policy a bit differently from you wbbell. It states (in non-highlighted portions):
[b] "In addition, under no circumstances, except as defined in this Section, can you
disclose personally identifiable information about another user to any third party [u] without our consent and the consent of such other user [/u] after adequate disclosure." [/b]
I think that would cover "forcing" a winning Bidder to fill out 3rd party Auction Management database info. I think consent would be required. Especially offensive if the winning Bidder expressly wrote/stated they did not want to be added to that database, for whatever reason.
It appears that most of the Sellers that do use Auction Management Services for the post-auction are willing to compromise when a Buyer requests not to use the service. For those that are inflexible and make it a demanded part of the transaction, it appears to me they are in violation of eBay's policy.
Again, if a Seller is determined that ALL Buyers use a 3rd Party of Seller's choice, why is that not part of the auction listing's TOS? Afraid of the blacklash? Or is it fear of the auction being cancelled by eBay?
posted on August 10, 2001 08:46:14 PM new
As before, all that cite says is what the user can do with the data. How he came about getting the data is not addressed by the privacy policy.
This is largely a moot point to begin with. We all know that you can't force someone to do something. Any seller who "requires" someone to do something is just setting himself up for a peeing match with someone later on down the road. It's just not worth it.
This is an interesting thread, I really don't mind the forms and a litle surprised to see such open hostility towards them.
Let me ask you all this. Let's say that I developed a simple web page that asked for your name and address. All this web page would do is send me an email with the data formatted in a standardized manner such that I can quickly cut and paste it into my spreadsheet. And let's also say that I put some words right there on the form saying that the data is not stored on the server, etc. sort of like how vrane does it. Better, worse, or same as the dreaded Andale-type form?
posted on August 10, 2001 08:52:39 PM new
I use AW's WBNs only for those items where the shipping cost is not dependent on the buyer's zip code. I edited the WBN to basically apologize for using it but explaining that it helps my staff of 1 (ME) keep on top of my responsibilities as a seller and that I am personally involved in every detail of this transaction.
I also make it clear that anyone who is uncomfortable using the WBN response form is free to email me their information. I do not re-enter the personal data in PSM, just click that it was received.
The fears of buyers, whether based on reality or imagination, have to be accommodated by sellers who want repeat business.
On the other hand, I don't buy the argument about separate emails representing some sort of more "personal" service. As a buyer, 90% of the time I get no hello, no thank you, just "your total due is xxx send money order or personal check to yyy or use pay pal" Half the time there is not even signed by a name. Now THAT is impersonal.
Gerald
"Oh but it's so hard to live by the rules/I never could and still never do."
posted on August 10, 2001 08:54:56 PM new
Once again the extremists have shown their true colors. Does it really make any sense that eBay has entered into various agreements with these services that the privacy wonks now say violate eBays own policies. Is it really you're contention that this being "true" nobody at eBay has realized this up till now? That's pretty funny considering how agressive eBay is in outing or sueing people who access their site and violate their policies, and since the management services need the sellers password to do this it would certainly qualify.
Hey, why don't some of you brilliant legal minds bring this to eBay's attention, maybe they'll give you a reward. That is if laughing in your face could be considered a reward.
posted on August 10, 2001 09:01:09 PM new
AuctionWatch are you listening? You are violating eBay policy you badniks you! I demand that you cease operations immediately! Never mind being a Preferred Provider, you must have duped eBay into that agreement somehow. Bad AW! Bad AW!
posted on August 10, 2001 09:05:54 PM new
Most of the naysayers miss the point totally, you can't require a buyer to use the form anymore than they can require you to alter the way you keep financial or customer records. You see when you are a BUSINESS you actually have to do recordkeeping. I actually pay taxes and maintain ultimate responsibility for my transactions. IF you can read with understanding the eBay policy clearly dictates the use of data. But the wonks want to skirt that by constantly stating as fact that these services are misusing it. Proof please?
posted on August 10, 2001 09:08:17 PM newBetter, worse, or same as the dreaded Andale-type form?
Better, but for me, that's not really the point. Even though I was arguing earlier in favor of those primarily concerned with their privacy, I'm not as bothered by the privacy aspects of it as the requirement to do it online.
The reason? I'm on a dialup connection, and I only have one phone line. I will often go online, download my email and then disconnect, where I will read my email and write out my responses. I'd love to have a cable modem or DSL, but when you don't live in the city, you have to make some accomodations. As hard as it may be to believe, I actually have to use my telephone as a, well... telephone sometimes.
For eBay purchases, I have a pre-written letter which includes my name, address and eBay id (the seller has all the other information he needs already), and with a couple of clicks, the reply is dumped into the outbox, to be sent the next time I go online.
Having to go online to provide the same information is certainly not the end of the world, but it is an annoyance I prefer to avoid.
posted on August 10, 2001 09:29:45 PM new
mrpotatoheadd
Since I run a mailorder business and not a 7-11 that really doesn't apply. Why don't you try asking a long established mailorder business if they keep customer records and if they keep them on paper. If you should get a chargeback notice 3 months after a sale is made and are asked to provide the shipping address where you sent the package to, out of what orifice will you pull that information? Wait you probably don't take online payments either. What about a mail fraud investigation then? Do you pay taxes? Maybe I'm too responsible but I retain all communications and customer data, this has proved invaluable in clearing up misunderstandings.
[ edited by bemused on Aug 10, 2001 09:35 PM ]
