posted on August 10, 2001 09:45:08 PM new
There is no need for rudeness or offensiveness in this thread. The sarcasim is evident and unnecessary.
To clarify, it seems to me, IF a Seller requires a 3rd Pary Service be used, then the Seller SHOULD so state in the auction listings. For the third time, WHY isn't this mentioned in the listing? Rather, it is "assumed" that all bidders will know such even though the 3rd Party link link does not indicate this.
For example, AW's link simply states :
Bulk listing tools, image hosting, auction management and more: AuctionWatch
Others say, This auction was automatically launched from ManageXXXXXX.com or another, This listing created by eBay Seller's AsstXXXXXX
Does it say you MUST fill in the database fields at that site if you are the winning bidder? No. Why not, then?
My whole point was twofold, IF the Seller insists on the Buyer filling out these forms--SAY SO in the listing. Secondly, to not be flexible enough to give room to the Buyer to consent (or opt out) to use the 3rd Party or not, IS against the eBay policy. I think it is pretty safe to say bemused that IF a Buyer fills out the form as requested, he/she HAS consented, hence no violation has occured.
I am not sure what a "privacy wonk" is - but i bet it is better than being careless and/or disregarding others' right to maintain a level of privacy they deem appropriate. As a Seller, mailorder or not, you have no right to make that determination for another without disclosing that in your TOS.
Good heavens, PSM is the only way one can be a law-abiding, tax paying, income reporting citizen nowadays!?! Here all along, I thought Excel spreadsheets were just fine *shrugs*
posted on August 10, 2001 09:51:41 PM new
Do you believe vaguely worded privacy policies that change at any given moment? That information trustingly given to one company today may be secretly sold to ten others tommorow. I hope you choose to take an active rather than reactive control of your
online experiance. Be good to your buyers.
They give you money. Help stop the spys lies
information thieves and profiling by whatever
legal means possible. If we dont we will all live to regret it. Power To The People!
Theres alot of websites out there
now on this issue and alot of great utilities.
ps. I hope your labeling machine is working today.
posted on August 10, 2001 10:00:13 PM new
"It appears that most of the Sellers that do use Auction Management Services for the post-auction are willing to compromise when a Buyer requests not to use the service. For those that are inflexible and make it a demanded part of the transaction, it appears to me they are in violation of eBay's policy.
Again, if a Seller is determined that ALL Buyers use a 3rd Party of Seller's choice, why is that not part of the auction listing's TOS? Afraid of the blacklash? Or is it fear of the auction being cancelled by eBay?"
Personally, I do list in my TOS that I use AuctionWatch to manage my auctions. As it has been stated here previously, it is obvious that it is not against eBay's policies to use a 3rd party forum to retain auction information. Why would they allow AuctionWatch and others to access their site if this was against their policy? This argument has no reason or logic.
The eBay policy that was quoted regarding privacy is pertaining to SPAM.
Also, I request that the bidders fill in the form. However, I do not demand that anyone fill in the form. I have not read any post from a seller that actually "Demands" that a seller fill in the form. I've seen posts where it's stated that some sellers just fill in the form themself. This is not the same thing.
Also, there was a post that stated something about sellers being lazy in not wanting to enter the information themselves. O.K., if you, the buyer, have to type the information and send an email, or type the informatin into the form, what is the difference? Unless you have a slow modem or internet connection, there is no difference.
For those buyers that do have a slow modem and/or internet connection, I have no problem entering the information myself. Since I do state in my TOS that I use AuctionWatch, if someone would bid on one of my auctions and demanded that I not enter their name, I would not sell them the item. And for the record, since I have started selling, I have not had ONE ITEM that I have listed not sell. I sell about 95% of my items the first time they are listed, and the rest have ALL been sold the second time. I have not had one person ask me to not enter their data in the database to date.
If a person went to the website of an on-line company, like a large **mart store, and ordered merchandise, then demanded that the company not enter the information into a database and that they receive personal, non-form emails, that just wouldn't happen.
When you, the buyer, are purchasing on eBay, you are taking advantage of modern technology to simplify your life. But, you want this simplicity only for yourselves? Are we as sellers supposed to use pen or pencil and paper and keep books for our accounting and inventory? Do you realize that they don't even teach people the old bookkeeping processes anymore? I recently enrolled in some business classes to hone up my skills, and we were required to use laptop computers. All accounting was done on the computer.
As I stated earlier, if someone really wants to find out information on you, anyone with a computer and internet access with a little bit of know-how can find out almost anything about you that they want.
If you feel so afraid to have your information entered on an Auction management system, maybe you should be shopping at your local mall or rummage sales.
posted on August 10, 2001 10:35:48 PM newPersonally, I do list in my TOS that I use AuctionWatch to manage my auctions.
Why not state "I use AuctionWatch to manage my auctions and all winning bidders must supply personal info to AW so I can manage my auctions more efficiently? I think stating you use AW to manage your auctions does not quite make it clear that you insist they use AW forms.
The eBay policy that was quoted regarding privacy is pertaining to SPAM.
Nope. read again, please. Unless, or course, we are talking about different quotes of the policy.
If a person went to the website of an on-line company, like a large **mart store, and ordered merchandise, then demanded that the company not enter the information into a database and that they receive personal, non-form emails, that just wouldn't happen.
I don't believe this thread has to do with form emails. I thought it had to do with supplying personal info to 3rd party management services. If i go online and purchase items from store XYZ, yes I give payment and shipping info to That Web Site. That site doesn't have me go to another site to enter shipping info and yet another site for payment info. There is no need for me to write that site an email telling them I want to purchase this or that or what is in my shopping cart. I simply proceed to check-out....one site, one form...bingo, all done. Additionally, the e-stores I frequent does not have annoying and sometimes PC-crashing pop-ups, pop-unders and slow servers that I have found on some 3rd Party Auction Mgmt. sites.
Are we as sellers supposed to use pen or pencil and paper and keep books for our accounting and inventory?
Good heavens, who ever said that!?!? My job as a Buyer is NOT to make YOUR job as a Seller easier (especially true if the Seller wants to make my job as a Buyer more difficult!). Enter the info yourself if you must. Enter the info manually if you must. Enter the info into your spreadsheet or label printer. Do as you want, but to insist that ALL Buyers enter at info at 3rd party sites to lessen your hassles is a bit much. The last I checked, if I was the winning bidder, I entered into a contractual agreement with the Seller and agreed to provide info to the Seller--not with AW, Andale or any other site UNLESS I choose/consent to do so.
And for the record, I don't have a problem with entering AW's form when requested. However, with the proliferation of PSM companies that any given Seller has decided to try, I do hesitate and will provide the info directly to the Seller.
As a Seller, I also request and enjoy the ease & convenience of buyers entering the info themselves at AW--but I do not insist they do so, nor do I feel my record keeping is completely amuck if I have to type the info into my own spreadsheet instead of AW's.
posted on August 10, 2001 10:41:55 PM newI entered into a contractual agreement with the Seller and agreed to provide info to the Seller--not with AW, Andale or any other site UNLESS I choose/consent to do so.
What's the difference? AW, andale, et al is acting as an agent to the seller. Only the seller will use the info. Why do we all automatically assume that these services are harvesting data for some nefarious purpose?
More importantly, everyone here is assuming that "the seller" is NOT harvesting data for some nefarious purpose. Why would you assume that?
If I wrote my own website that collects data and provides it only to me - do you regard that as the same as supplying data to andale/AW/etc?
posted on August 10, 2001 10:52:52 PM new
Bemused -- I have reread it several times and it appears to me that you seem to have taken offense to my posting. I am here to tell you that you are reading things into it that I didn't say.
"The poster who implied above that sellers who use a service are somehow mentally challenged should come into the 21st century. Manual recordkeeping has been fast approaching the dust bin of history for a looong time now." I did not say, nor imply, that those sellers who use services are mentally challenged. I gave a short list of reasons why sellers might use automated services, and said that I understand, and have no problem with that as long as they don't input MY information into a WEB SITE. I guess I made the mistake of not including a disclaimer stating that I was not mentioning all the reasons for using an automated service. My bad.
(I did, as a fact, have one seller (whose auction didn't disclose that she used an auction managment service) tell me that she is old and forgetful and needed to use the automated service in order to keep track of her auctions. So, yes, she was mentally challenged. It was not a problem. She and I had a GREAT transaction, so... you don't need to be offended on her account.)
Others may have different issues, but the issue for ME is that I have the right to my choice to not have my information put onto a web site. If a seller discloses that they use the fill-in forms, then I won't bid. But if they don't disclose it, then I am not the one at fault! And if they were to try to force me to do it, or to fill it in for me, I will give them negative feedback for changing their TOS after the auction ends. The issue, is freedom of choice. (Not whose views on privacy are right.)
As for Privacy policies -- we KNOW how much one can trust a policy to remain the same (ironic grimmace). Web sites change their policies frequently -- ebay is a prime example of that. So one can agree to the current online TOS/policy and trust them... only to have the policy revised to the point that it might mean exactly the opposite of what it meant when you signed on. Web sites' privacy policies are about as firmly binding as a piece of licorice vine (candy).
Not to mention that a privacy policy is worthless if the site is hacked!
Anyway, many of the sellers I've dealt with who use automated services do their record keeping on their own computer, not the online site. And although I know that their personal computer can be hacked, I believe that the odds are lower because the amount of data reaped by the hacker will be less than if they hack a site which has hundreds of thousands of data records on it. I would prefer that every seller have a good firewall and security system. But there is no way to know if they do.
If you want to tell me your ebay ID, I will make sure I don't bid on your auctions, and thus will be one less problem bidder for you.
Violetta
(Not known by this nickname anywhere but here.)
posted on August 10, 2001 11:15:18 PM new
Of course they are harvesting data. How do you think they are making money? It is niave
to believe that all those addresses names buying habits are being stored (under the guise of a "service" for any other reason.
Eventually all info will be sold.
As a buyer I have to assume that the seller
is not selling my info. An agreement of trust. I have maybe wrongly? assumed that
the seller and buyer have a personal agreement; I send you money and you send me the item and thankyou. Without this basic trust how could a transaction happen?????
posted on August 10, 2001 11:20:42 PM new
""Personally, I do list in my TOS that I use AuctionWatch to manage my auctions.""
"Why not state "I use AuctionWatch to manage my auctions and all winning bidders must supply personal info to AW so I can manage my auctions more efficiently? I think stating you use AW to manage your auctions does not quite make it clear that you insist they use AW forms."
When I said I listed in my TOS that I use AuctionWatch I didn't say that was the entire line. Here is a quote from my actual TOS:
"When the sale is over, an invoice will be sent via email through AuctionWatch.com. The exception would be if you have won multiple items and I have sent an email myself. If you do not receive an AuctionWatch form, you will receive a personal email from me. Please respond to whichever notification you receive within 3 days in the manner requested."
I then have a line at the bottom stating:
"Placing a bid on or purchasing one of my items indicates agreement of the above listed terms."
I can't say that I require that the form be filled out because I don't require that it be filled out if they have purchased multiple items. Also, I have a paragraph in my WBN stating that if they choose not to fill out the form, that I will manually enter the information.
""The eBay policy that was quoted regarding privacy is pertaining to SPAM.""
"Nope. read again, please. Unless, or course, we are talking about different quotes of the policy."
O.K., one more time:
"Your Use of Other Users' Information.
In order to facilitate interaction among all eBay community members, our service allows you limited access other users' contact information. As a seller you have access to the User ID, email address and other contact information of the buyer or winning bidder(s), and as a buyer or winning bidder you have access to the User ID, email address and other contact information of the seller."
O.K., this first part just stated the information you get access to, doesn't state where you can put it.
"By entering into our User Agreement, you agree that, with respect to other users' personally identifiable information that you obtain through the Site or through an eBay-related communication or eBay-facilitated transaction, eBay hereby grants to you a license to use such information only for:
(a) eBay-related communications that are not unsolicited commercial messages, (b) using services offered through eBay"
since eBay allows AuctionWatch and other Auction Management services on their site, they would be considered a service offered through eBay. AuctionWatch in particular since they are eBay's preferred Auction Management Service.
"(e.g. escrow, insurance, shipping"
If you use AuctionWatch for your shipping labels, according to this statment, this is o.k.
"and fraud complaints)"
to be able to defend fraud complaints, you would have to keep the information for a period of time and apparently this is o.k.
", and (c) any other purpose that such user expressly agrees to after adequate disclosure of the purpose(s). In all cases, you must give users an opportunity to remove themselves from your database and a chance to review what information you have collected about them."
As the above states if you use the information for any other reason than the purposes before, they must be approved by the person. The only reason I could think you would want to retain the personal information for a long period of time is for spam and if we keep reading the next couple of paragraphs they will highlight that.
"In addition, under no circumstances, except as defined in this Section, can you disclose personally identifiable information about another user to any third party without our consent and the consent of such other user after adequate disclosure. Note that law enforcement personnel, VeRO program participants, and other rights holders are given different rights with respect to information they access."
AuctionWatch does not look at personally identifiable information. If you look at the AuctionWatch privacy policy, it states that the information they use is only demographical. The person's information is seen only by the seller. eBay would not be allowing AuctionWatch to access their site if they were looking at the information and/or distributing it in any way other than using demographic statistics that show no personally identifiable information.
"eBay and our users do not tolerate spam.
Therefore, without limiting the foregoing
, you are not licensed to add an eBay user, even a user who has purchased an item from you, to your mail list (email or physical mail) without their express consent after adequate disclosure. To report eBay related spam to eBay, please send an email to [email protected]."
They sum this up by saying they don't tolerate spam. They are saying you can't add someone to your email or physical list without consent after adequate disclosure. The concluding sentence talks about how to report spam. They say to send an email to [email protected]. Nowhere does it say if you suspect someone is using a third party auction management service to print their shipping labels and keep their records, please send an email to [email protected]. That's why I am saying that the main issue of this policy is to show the seriousness of not spamming.
posted on August 10, 2001 11:43:50 PM new
bemused:
Do you agree that any seller who requires the buyer to use these automated/3rd party forms should clearly disclose such in his auctions?
I would think such a simple disclosure would be very efficent for the busy seller: He'd avoid those pesky buyers who value their time or, for reasons real or imagined, their privacy--or who don't appreciate the "send me your money and shut up" attitude that often comes with such programs.
posted on August 11, 2001 12:04:42 AM new
vobistdu
You've actually received an EOA that said send me your money and shut-up? Maybe you should visit the boards an some of these services and note that most sellers are a lot more conscientious than that before you defame them. Most services allow you to customize the letters as any sane seller does. Most emails you receive from a seller are a form letter in some respect since they don't really know you and the information they need to convey is largely always the same. Are you so starved for human contact that you require every seller to send you an EOA with a sonnet written just for you? You're deluding yourself if you think that emails between two people who don't know each other is personal. Lastly my feedback on 1200+ sales (no negs) is filled with praise for my efficiency, packaging, and customer service. If my customers need any additional help they get it and that is the case with many if not most sellers who use these services despite the time honored defamations of character spewed herein.
posted on August 11, 2001 12:33:52 AM new
I'm going to tone it all the way down. I'll drop back in when someone reports back what eBay's reply is to the revelation that AuctionWatch, Andale, AuctionWorks, ChannelFusion, etc, are all violating their TOS.
posted on August 11, 2001 03:56:14 AM new
bemused:
Come on, dude, get a grip
I left enough qualifiers and generalities in there to keep anyone from feeling personally insulted. If you go back and read my first post in this thread, you'll see I am a strong defender of sellers having control over their auction terms.
But I do agree with mitzee, violetta and others who favor full disclosure to buyers about payment options and mandates. And stating only that you use a certain auction management company ISN'T enough: Don't make your buyer guess at what that service requires--tell him upfront so he can stay out of your hair.
That "send money and shut up" line is my general short-hand for the rudeness that can be achieved when an overburdened seller not gifted in the social graces just compounds the problem by using an automated helper. Your buyer is more than a wallet awaiting your next command.
I'd close with a reference to the "Seinfeld" episode about the stern soup seller, but I don't want to get you steamed again.
Ah! I've just leave the smiley in.
[ edited by vobistdu on Aug 11, 2001 04:03 AM ]
posted on August 11, 2001 05:06:00 AM new
I hesitate to add to this thread, but posted earlier and notice that my thoughts were completely ignored. (that's OK, but I think they were important.) Most posters here are complaining about being "required" to use an automated form. Totally false- nobody is requiring you to do anything. We sellers are more than happy to receive your email in response to our WBN. You say "you must supply personal info". One would think we want your social security #, CC # and telephone #. All we want is your name and address, and if you wish to email it, that's fine with us. I can't figure what the uproar is about- About 10% of my buyers send an email when they get the wbn. They don't complain, they don't threaten me, they don't worry about it; they just send me an email. And whether they use the form or not, they are happy to get such quick and concise EOA contact. I am adding to my listing- "I use Auctionwatch for my auction management. If you don't wish to respond to the notification, that's fine, just email me." At least that will resolve the "being forced" and "required" worries.
posted on August 11, 2001 05:21:09 AM newrgrem - I am in total agreement with you. There is nothing input into the PSM form that can't be found in an internet white pages search....name and address is as personal as it gets. About 20% of my buyers choose to email me rather than fill out the form. A surprising 40% do BOTH...they fill out the form and then send me an email to let me know they filled out the form. A small percentage just sends payment without filling out the form or emailing me. I don't care how I get the information or the payment, as long as I get it.
Gerald
"Oh but it's so hard to live by the rules/I never could and still never do."
posted on August 11, 2001 07:30:33 AM new
vobistdu
"Qualifiers and generalities", do you work on the eBay policy writing team in your spare time? If you didn't paint with such a broad brush when referring to business sellers it wouldn't be necessary to leave yourself a backdoor. A seller using a service is no more rude or inept than the hobby seller that doesn't, it depends on the individual not the tools.
posted on August 11, 2001 09:18:39 AM new
Quick question - I understand seller's wishing buyers use the automated forms. What is the problem with just including in your TOS that you are on certain service and buyers will get a quick email from that service once auction has ended. Does not seem like too burdensome a disclosure.
Regarding inputting personal info to a site versus emailing the info to a seller, these are quite different. If the seller stores the info on their own personal computer, the control of the info is only with the seller. If it is on a site, the info is now available to both the service and the seller.
posted on August 11, 2001 09:35:49 AM new
I just got a response from the seller who
put my info on a form at a website. She contacted the webmaster. They say they are sellers. This is how it works.
If I fill out the form; Any seller who goes to that website can see my info.
If she fills out the form; only she can see the info. Of course its in their data base.
They said they would not sell info
for spam purposes they would loose their license with ebay. Quite honestly they will not need ebay, once they have a nice large
database of buying habits and personal info.
to sell.
It is quite dangerous to show your info to any seller on a website. If some sellers recognize your name and know what you collect, you can be a target for burglary.
We had that problem with an association journal. They used to list in the yearend issue all members of the association and their mailing addresses. As most members are collectors, the addresses given were usually their home. Certain less than honest dealers recognize who the more prominent names were and these became a target for breakins by organized rings. When the police finally discover the links to all the breakins, policy change so addresses are no longer listed in journals.
I personally use a P.O. Box for all my mailings. Home mailing addresses only given to well established auction houses when UPS delivery is require.
posted on August 11, 2001 09:53:02 AM new
"So is it wrong to manually enter the information without the buyers consent?"
Yes. If they have expressed their non-consent to you, doing that would be a violation. If they just emailed the information to you without saying anything about the form, you should ask first, before filling it in for them.
(NothingYouNeed -- You might be surprised to know that you cannot find my address on the web. If you do a web search you can find my name -- and also any personal information that I ever disclosed in newsgroups postings (not much, I was careful). But my address is not in "The White Pages" and similar search engines. For what it's worth, and not that it matters. I don't know why it's not there -- and I am not going to add it. )
Violetta
(Not known by this nickname anywhere but here.)
posted on August 11, 2001 12:48:18 PM newvioletta - I should have stated that if your phone number is unlisted you might not appear in some of the white pages on line directories which are just compendiums of phone company directories.
However, if you give me your name (hehe) and date of birth, it will take me about five minutes to find out your address, social security number, previous names (e.g., maiden or married), year-by-year earnings history since you first started working, tax information, medical history and medical insurance information, and on and on and on. Thousands of people across the country, including me, have legitimate access to this information in order to perform their jobs. Of course, looking up your information simply to prove my point would be a serious breach of my employment agreement and, if discovered, would result in immediate termination.
My point is, if you are truly concerned about your privacy, auction management seller data bases and internet white pages should be the least of your worries. The combination of the federal government and insurance companies is the biggest threat to privacy on or off the internet.
Gerald
"Oh but it's so hard to live by the rules/I never could and still never do."
posted on August 11, 2001 01:48:29 PM new
Could some of the conspiracy theorists please lay out some hard numbers for me. Some have said that the management services stand to make more from selling names than collecting fees, so please enlighten me as to some exact numbers for how much a name that is most likely already in a database is worth. Or are you referring to agregate data which does not contain identifying info? I find it very hard to beleive that Andale is going to pay back $60 million in venture capital by selling names, nevermind that they expressly state that they don't sell this info. Considering the number of companies that are outed by the online news services for being connected to spammers it seems pretty unlikely. Andale and many other services get paid off the backs of sellers in the form of monthly fees and percentages. You all have a VERY inflated opinion of what you're data is worth on the open market. I can open a magazine or visit a website and buy thousands of names on a CD for relatively little money, not enough to pay the bills at any of these auction management companies. You might as well de-register from AW, eBay, your ISP, local video store, grocery store savings card, bank, insurance company, and credit card company becuase they are all just as likely if not more likely to sell your "valuable" information.
I hate to break it too you but you are not quite the hot commodity that you think you are. Selling information about you that is already widely available is not worth losing the pipeline into sellers profits for these companies. Anybody who disagrees please give me the numbers on how selling names is worth the risk to these companies primary businesses. What do you imagine your name is really worth? That should be very amusing.
posted on August 11, 2001 02:18:13 PM new
Just did a quick check of a couple of large targeted email lists sellers. The one's I checked sell opt-in list and disclose the websites that the information was culled from. Theoretically these would be most valuable to marketers due to the fact that they are opt-in and the user had to fill out some sort of survey about there online buying habits. The highest price per name I found was $0.35 for names gathered from sites like Network Solutions. Now let's suppose that the most hated and despised Andale is sitting on top of the info an every eBay user that is registered, let's say 30 million worldwide. Even if they could get $0.35 per name (never mind the legality and the fact that they don't have that volume of data), that would amount to $10,500,000. The problem is of course that they have $60 at least to pay back and they would lose their place at the eBay banquet when it became known. On the other hand they claim to have about 900,000 registered sellers, cut that in half if you like and do the math over the course of a years fees based on the 2.95% they used to charge (It's double/triple now) and you tell me if the sleazy world of spamming is really more profitable for them.
posted on August 11, 2001 02:25:31 PM new
bemused, it's not just 'my name' they sell, it's the list of names on which mine is included, that they sell. How else does a person end up getting snail mail from banks and credit card companies all over the world? I never got a kitchen catalog in the mail until I subscribed for one year to a cooking magazine. I now get several every season. How did these places get my name and address? and what made them think that I was interested in cooking? This same thing happens on the web. Trust me, I've seen it happen.
Thanks I already know that spam exists, none of what you said addresses the questions I posed however or deals with the Auction Mgmt services specifically. If you re-read my post you will see that I referred to targeted lists which include the info you mention. I'm asking for facts. Some proof that they (AW, Andale, etc.) are selling names/data and the hard numbers that would make it worthwhile for them would be nice.
How do you suppose that people's mailboxes have always been spammed? Prior to the advent of ecommerce most brick and mortar businesses rarely disclosed what they did with your info or who they might sell it to let alone give you the option of opting out.
posted on August 11, 2001 03:06:30 PM new
Hope this doesn't violate the CG's, but using a few press releases from Andale (the most hated) for example:
May 30, 2000 Avcom Joins Andale to sell $100 Million in Sun Products
Apr. 11, 2000 Andale secures $41 Million to accelerate growth in Web's most profitable Ecommerce Segment
Oct. 5, 1999 Net Startup lands $19.6 Million to help Auction Sellers
******
When you're dealing with these kinds of numbers which most of these large Auction Management Services are, how does selling user data really help your bottom line? Don't get me wrong if I could see where the profits from that could make a dent in the high stakes ventures they're involved in I might believe it, but the numbers just aren't there.
posted on August 11, 2001 04:07:39 PM new
Such logic will not satisfy people's fears. Perhaps you'll remember the bankrupt company required to sell the database they had collected with promises not to.
