posted on August 17, 2001 11:59:42 AM newWhat's wrong with this picture?
Mother brings kids to store. Mother buys stuff for kids. Mother comes back 100 times and buys more stuff.
Mother brings kids to store in a different city. Kid takes item from shelf, opens it up, and gets it sticky with peanut butter. Mother won't pay. Mother never goes back to that city, let alone that store.
posted on August 17, 2001 12:02:46 PM newThe buyer doesn't have to send back the item to do a chargeback.....
This is completely false, persuming that the buyer intends to do a quality-of-merchandise chargeback. The item must be returned in the condition it was received. Seller will end up without the money, but with the merchandise.
If buyer never received the item, or if the cardholder was not the one using the card, then of course the item is not required to do a chargeback. These two situations constitute nearly all internet credit card fraud, and PayPal sellers who follow the rules are completely protected.
Edited to add that one must be a PayPal seller for such protection.
posted on August 17, 2001 12:03:02 PM new
Here's the deal- there needs to be some sort of balance here. Obviously, there will always be the possibility of a disagreement between the buyer and the seller, but as long as there is some kind of investigation procedure in place to make an attempt at determining the facts of a dispute, there is the possibility of a more or less reasonable outcome.
This appears to be the way a typical merchant account works. In a chargeback situation, each side presents their case, and the chargeback is allowed (or not) on the merits of the available facts.
It doesn't work this way with PayPal, however, and that is what a lot of sellers are unhappy about. A buyer using a cc through PayPal wins in a chargeback dispute, no matter what. Until PayPal addresses this issue, these same kinds of threads will continue to be posted.
posted on August 17, 2001 12:09:57 PM new
But Mr P, that does not happen very often, never to me anyhow- 98% of people out there are honest people
I can definately see being leary if you sell high end items of $80 or more, but if your sale averages are around $5-$80.00. I think Paypal is the way to go, the odds are against everything being fine- and most of my paypal payments come from funds already in the account(non-credit card)so there would be no charge back issues anyhow.
I can tell you that I will absolutely bypass your auction if you dont take paypal
I will pay 2-3 dollars more to not have to get a money order or cashiers check
I am sure I am not the only one that feels that way, so your sales may not be as high
Jen
posted on August 17, 2001 12:20:35 PM newBut Mr P, that does not happen very often, never to me anyhow- 98% of people out there are honest people
If that is your experience and you don't mind the expense, then there is no reason not to use them. It would be a mistake to assume that other sellers all share your experience, though.
I am sure I am not the only one that feels that way, so your sales may not be as high
Depends on what you sell.
I did a check a while back on a couple of items that I regularly sell, and the results showed that the average final value when not accepting PayPal was more than when I did accept payment through them.
posted on August 17, 2001 12:24:54 PM newThis appears to be the way a typical merchant account works. In a chargeback situation, each side presents their case, and the chargeback is allowed (or not) on the merits of the available facts.
Credit card issuing banks do not investigate quality of merchandise disputes any more than PayPal does. They do not. For example, no one at any bank will ever ask buyer to send a picture of the returned merchandise so that the bank can analyze the disappointment, to "see if we agree". If buyer claims to be disappointed in the quality, tries to work it out, returns it, and then persists, buyer wins.
I know that some people wish that it worked differently, but wishing isn't going to change anything.
The only difference between being a PayPal seller and a credit card merchant in this story is that the merchant can either test the perserverence of buyer, or the merchant can make peace and get the buyer to drop the chargeback during the process. As a PayPal seller, one must anticipate this situation and decide against it up front, by offering a refund to the disappointed buyer.
posted on August 17, 2001 12:32:02 PM new
PayPal doesn't say any such thing, since PayPal does not involve itself in any quality of merchandise dispute.
If the merchandise is paid for from a PayPal account, the resolution of such a case is between the seller and the buyer.
If the merchandise is paid for by credit card, the resolution is between seller, buyer, and the credit card company.
posted on August 17, 2001 12:40:54 PM new
I need everyone to try something... please switch positions for a moment.
Seller <-------> Buyer
Okay, now you are a buyer with 3 choices.
1. Purchase a money order and send it snail mail.
2. Send a personal check via snail mail and wait for it to clear.
3. Email payment via PayPal or BillPoint.
I'm not the brightest buyer in the world but I'm always going to go with choice #3. I want my merchandise quick, and I want the least amount of effort. I offer PayPal because as a buyer it is a terrific option that I will use without hesitation over the other 2 options.
Okay, you can all start thinking like sellers again.
------
BTW: When I look on eBay I see more sellers accepting electronic payment than not. That has more impact to me than the tone on the message board.
posted on August 17, 2001 12:44:37 PM newCredit card issuing banks do not investigate quality of merchandise disputes any more than PayPal does. They do not. For example, no one at any bank will ever ask buyer to send a picture of the returned merchandise so that the bank can analyze the disappointment, to "see if we agree".
You seem to be the only poster here who is arguing this specific situation (quality of merchandise). What many others are commenting on is a situation that does not involve a quality of merchandise dispute, such as where a seller sends a purse to a buyer, who claims to be unhappy with the amount they spent in later email to the seller. Later, the buyer changes their changes the story in order to do a chargeback on the item.
Many others have posted that, in this exact situation, their merchant account would not have allowed the chargeback.
posted on August 17, 2001 12:49:39 PM newI did a check a while back on a couple of items that I regularly sell, and the results showed that the average final value when not accepting PayPal was more than when I did accept payment through them.
i don't think this would hold true for what i sell, but i find it interesting. mr.p., any ideas/theories on why this was the case for you?
posted on August 17, 2001 12:50:28 PM newI need everyone to try something... please switch positions for a moment.
But can you be sure, once you go from being a seller to a buyer, that the buyer who has now become a seller, will be as enthusiastic about accepting a PayPal payment as he was when sending it?
posted on August 17, 2001 12:52:49 PM new
If you do not use paypal because of the fee's, then you should think of offering a paypal balance transfer or e-check and block credit card payments- then you can have a simple free account that offers your buyers another choice.
If you do not accept it because of what might happen with a charge back ect..., then you are not realizing the odds are way against that happening.
How many people on these boards have suffered a paypal charge back---I have seen 1 that is it. The odds are against it never happening, especially if you ship to a confirmed address. If someone is not happy with the quality of goods as a buisness you should take it back anyhow
What if you get in your car and wreck
What if you get struck by lightning
What if your walking and a tree falls on you
If I lived on what ifs I wouldnt leave my bedroom
What if I fall down the stairs?
As a buisness it is not wise to live on What Ifs- There isnt anything or anyone that can make things fool proof
Jen
posted on August 17, 2001 12:58:27 PM newi don't think this would hold true for what i sell, but i find it interesting. mr.p., any ideas/theories on why this was the case for you?
I have no idea. I get lots of repeat bidders (over 1,000 positive feedback comments, but my rating is only a little over 500), so I figure that not accepting PayPal is not affecting them.
Does not accepting PayPal chase away others? I don't know for sure, but the only comment I've ever received concerning that fact came from a winning bidder who, when he found out I wouldn't accept his payment through PayPal, said "I'm sorry you don't- I guess I won't be bidding on any more of your auctions".
He was the high bidder on another of my items a couple of weeks later.
posted on August 17, 2001 01:00:54 PM newmrpotatoheadBut can you be sure, once you go from being a seller to a buyer, that the buyer who has now become a seller, will be as enthusiastic about accepting a PayPal payment as he was when sending it?
Nope. Some sellers don't think like buyers. MrPotato, didn't you admit when given those 3 options as a buyer you'd use PayPal on a recent thread?
Maybe this is wrong but I happen to think a seller should think like a buyer when offering their product. I have no proof, just call it a hunch.
posted on August 17, 2001 01:09:24 PM newMrPotato, didn't you admit when given those 3 options as a buyer you'd use PayPal on a recent thread?
Sure did.
If the seller offers those three options, but says they'd prefer a check/money order over PayPal, I send a check.
MrP, once the buyer submits a quality of merchandise dispute to the credit card company, the situation involves a quality of merchandise dispute.
Well, then... it appears that credit card companies will disallow a chargeback based on a quality of merchandise claim then.
Either that, or all the others who have posted claiming that in this type of a situation, their merchant account would have disallowed the chargeback are lying.
posted on August 17, 2001 01:34:24 PM new
I buy EVERYTHING via the internet. I go online or make a phone call buy what I want at a price cheaper than locally with no running around trying to find it. It arrives the next day (or 2) at work and I'm done.
The sellers on eBay fall into 2 categories: retailers and collectors. The collectors have that special widget that I need to finish my set, the rest are just dealing in commodities.
I don't buy that much any more because eBay price are usually more than retail and people charge more for shipping (even if they charge their cost). The last this I tried to buy was batteries, but auction after auction goes for DOUBLE what you can buy them for on the web.
You know this thread is one which is constantly repeated. But none of the sellers here ever answer a simple question:
Why am I going to pay you MORE, make a special trip to the P.O., pay a fee for a M.O., wait around for you to get the money and then have no warranty???? Ebay is supposed to be an AUCTION where people get rid of their junk.
Paypal isn't running to do chargebacks, the law gives cc purchases the right of recision for ANY reason within certain time periods.
I just shake my head at some of the comments here.
posted on August 17, 2001 01:39:46 PM new
Well I had five auctions end last night and guess what all five used paypal-and I received another from an auction that ended two days ago...so please tell me what people prefer...your welcome to check my ended auctions under Jenns_Closet
Payment From xxx 16.76 Aug 17, 2001 Completed
Payment From xxx 34.02 Aug 17, 2001 Uncleared
Payment From xxx 15.54 Aug 17, 2001 Completed
Transfer To Bank Account -80.00 Aug 17, 2001 Pending
Payment From xxx 33.70 Aug 17, 2001 Completed
Payment From xxx 41.10 Aug 17, 2001 Completed
Payment From xxx 12.45 Aug 17, 2001 Completed
They are happy I am happy and get to mail all of this stuff out tomorrow(by the way only one of these was a credit card payment)
Jen
posted on August 17, 2001 01:41:30 PM newPaypal isn't running to do chargebacks, the law gives cc purchases the right of recision for ANY reason within certain time periods.
And that "any reason" is the reason a lot us us don't want paypal, billpoint, etc. I have sold "special tools" (that are used for ONE thing only), and unless it's a "shop" that's buying it, very often a buyer would only use it once. I don't want some payment service cramming a return down my throat on an item like this. I don't "lend out" $50 tools.
posted on August 17, 2001 02:05:20 PM newPaypal isn't running to do chargebacks, the law gives cc purchases the right of recision for ANY reason within certain time periods.
That's interesting- others who post here who have merchant accounts have said that's not so. I guess they must have been lying.
...so please tell me what people prefer
It appears your buyers prefer PayPal. You're not suggesting that, based on the results of your auctions, all buyers do, are you?
posted on August 17, 2001 02:20:20 PM new
tjbrocean
on a totally different vein, i can not beieve you have a pic of your kids posted on your me page. do you have any idea what some people do with those pics. do you even understand that the net has an evil underbelly. Kid porn is rampant and clothing has nothing to do with it. clothed or not there are FREAKS who like that stuff!!!
posted on August 17, 2001 02:23:17 PM new
OK guys, I've been to the paypal website, and I'm trying desperately to figure out the fee structure. I would probably need a merchant account, because I take in more than $100/mo. My questions are:
1. how does one become 'preferred' and to get the cut rate do both buyer and seller have to be preferred?
2. Can someone explain to me how they calculate the preferred rate, and what that means to me? (PayPal Preferred fees calculated by subtracting 1.5% debit card cashback from the Standard and Merchant Rate fees.) What does this mean? Does this mean that I still pay the full rate and something happens with my debit card?
Please I would like a real legitimate explanation.
posted on August 17, 2001 02:23:35 PM newIf your business plan relies on you making money on the backs of people being stuck with purchases they want to return, no one's going to have much sympathy.
eBay is an auction site. Items are unique and sold to the highest bidder. When the bidder initiates a chargeback (far more often than not simply a case of buyer's remorse, or finding the same item for less in another auction), the seller is stuck with hefty fees. Also, the bidder has outbid (often by $1) several other bidders who would have been very happy with their purchase. So the bidder has cost the seller a sale, and caused the seller to incur extra fees. This is not the case in a retail store where there are many identical items available, and there is no "listing fee" to absorb.
Also, last time I checked, any bidder who complains to Paypal that the item did not arrive, will cause the entire seller's account to be locked up for months. How many sellers has Paypal driven out of business over a $10 dispute? If you accept Paypal, you might as well hand them the family jewels, because that is exactly what you are doing.
I have watched Paypal from the start and seen them pile one lie on top of another in these public forums. I've seen the twisted half-truths spoken with a straight face. Remember "always free" and "we make money on the float" and "no one will be forced to upgrade?" Lies, lies, lies. I choose not to do business with that kind of company. And I wonder about the ethics of a seller who is willing to deal with Paypal.
posted on August 17, 2001 02:42:30 PM newAlso, last time I checked, any bidder who complains to Paypal that the item did not arrive, will cause the entire seller's account to be locked up for months.
twinsoft, this is not true.
Sellers who follow the rules are totally protected from claims of non-receipt.
Even those who ignore the rules, and ship for example to unverified addresses, are only vulnerable to lose the amount of the transaction.
Getting one's PayPal account locked requires strong evidence of fraudulent activity, or an ongoing pattern of unaddressed complaints.
posted on August 17, 2001 02:48:03 PM newAlso, last time I checked, any bidder who complains to Paypal that the item did not arrive, will cause the entire seller's account to be locked up for months.
While I believe that was nominally the case in the past, it is not the case anymore. I have had two recent chargebacks and they have a well defined process for pursuing and investigating them. Only the amount in question is frozen.
