posted on September 4, 2001 12:31:21 PM new
kiawok -- what is PlayPal? What is xmas? We're talking PAYPAL here, dude. Pay attention. And I supposed you mean CHRISTmas.
And just because you've had one buyer who cannot read that you don't accept PayPal, doesn't mean you haven't had many more who have read your TOS and passed it by.
Smart Buyers = Buyers who can read = PayPal users.
posted on September 4, 2001 12:45:07 PM new
I try to look at the bigger picture. Whether you accept PayPal, or use another online payment service, or take credit cards directly through a merchant account, you are offering a service that, in one way or another, the vast majority of eBay sellers offer. Why cut yourself off from the clear advantages that most buyers see about using credit to buy online? It's just one more thing that attracts your buyers and helps keep them coming back.
Nobody would argue that if your merchandise is overpriced, or the pictures are lousy, or your TOS would scare away even the schoolyard bully, that taking online payments is going to greatly improve your sales picture. I'm talking about the small additional edge that any buyer benefit offers in a competitive market...and online payment is definitely one of those benefits.
If you sell only the rarest or most unusual goods, or appeal to a market where buyers are willing to go through any hoops to make a purchase, perhaps you don't need to offer anything other than your merchandise. But for most of us, we need to do everything we can to snare buyers and keep them coming back.
As it happens, I do deal extensively in small antiques and collectibles, usually with prices unddr $50, and I have a number of repeat customers who INSIST on sending me money orders even though I have assured them many times that I will happily take a check (or an online payment). For whatever personal reasons, these people are actually happier dealing with the additional hassle of getting and paying for and mailing a money order. But probably 70% of my customers use PayPal, and I'm delighted. I have fewer visits to the bank, and less worries about bad checks...and I clean out my PayPal account regularly with EFTs, so very little is ever in there to be seized in case of a problem.
As the online sales market matures and grows, I think we will see that online payments will become the norm (if they aren't already)...both in auction environments and in general Web-based sales situations. We are at the point where restaurants and department stores were, say, in the late 1950s or early 1960s, when credit cards became common currency but many (if not most) places were not yet ready to accept them. How often these days do you find a restaurant of any size, or a store, or gas station, or any other retail outlet that does NOT accept some form of credit card? We're moving rapidly in that direction in the online auction biz, and I bet in five years these discussions will be as outdated as arguing the benefits of horses over autos.
posted on September 4, 2001 12:53:00 PM new
PEIKLK: No need for your mean remarks, or sarcasm. Really. Those who think they live and breath using PayPal will keep on using it, as they should. Those who can easily live without the stress of wondering when they'll get a chargeback, etc, will keep selling just fine too. To each their own.
posted on September 4, 2001 12:57:35 PM new
Smart Buyers = Buyers who can read .... and write.
If you took the time to read the link I provided you should understand by now that not everyone NEEDS to accept PayPal, nor does accepting PayPal mean you will receive MORE bids, OR higher ending prices, nor does NOT acepting PayPal mean you will receive fewer bids, OR lower ending prices.
If anyone can prove otherwise, I'm all ears.
As stated in the other thread, I know a GOLD power seller who moves 25-40 K worth of antiques & collectibles per MONTH on eBay, and he doesn't accept CC payments. He was in this biz [online selling] before Gore invented the internet [ha-ha],and long before Pierre even thought about trading Pez containers online.
People buy from him because of his honest & long standing reputation.
As a buyer [who's bought plenty online], the LAST thing that's a deciding factor on my bid amount is the forms of payment a seller accepts.
My MAIN concern is that the item arrives on my doorstep EXACTLY as described, and IF there's a problem the seller will stand behind their merchandise.
I'd say by MY sales I'm not the only collector who thinks the same way.
posted on September 4, 2001 01:12:10 PM new
kiawok If anyone can prove otherwise, I'm all ears
I have no proof but I do know what I do. Many times I purchase something that has multiple listings on eBay. I'm going to purchase it the easiest and quickest way possible. I'm not any different from most folks.
If you go to the grocery store and it is time to check out which cashier do you go to? The one that has 3 customers with full carts in line or the one that is empty? I'm going to the empty line, my time is valuable (even if I choose to waste it on a message board.)
Books, CDs, Movies, etc., are frequently given 10, 20 or more matches. Am I going to choose the one that requires extra effort on my part and days added to the shipping? Not if I have a choice.
posted on September 4, 2001 01:23:46 PM new
creativethings -- I said nothing mean. kiawok was getting insulting calling it PLAYpal, when we are discussion PAYpal and he was called on it. Nothing mean there.
posted on September 4, 2001 01:26:26 PM new
UARU: Quite honestly, I prefer to write checks when I buy stuff on ebay. Mostly, because it keeps me from spending too much money, and I can keep track of what I've bought. I'm rarely in a hurry for the merchandise, so if my check is held I just don't care. This is just MY preference, that's all. I did sell over a year ago with a PayPal account and it was very convenient. It was when the stories started going around about chargebacks, etc, that got me worried, so I closed it. Luckily for me, I closed my account before I ever had a bad encounter.
Since I sell only from time-to-time, it doesn't make sense for me to reopen it. Luckily for you, you seem to not have any problems so far with PayPal either.
ADDED: Off the subject...after editing....what's this Casino on The Net thing that AuctionWatch has blinking in my eye at the top of their screen! How annoying! I thought ebay only tried to annoy us.....
[ edited by creativethings on Sep 4, 2001 01:28 PM ]
[ edited by creativethings on Sep 4, 2001 01:28 PM ]
Please read the link I posted on page one. I used a rather common Shawnee Pottery item as my example. It appears the vast majority of buyers aren't concerned about the payment TOS? This doesn't come as any BIG surprise to me as I've seen the same situation played out on hundreds of auctions over the past year. I've watched this market very closely & I have yet to see any REAL proof that accepting PayPal/Billpoint makes one iota of a difference in the number of bids, or the final prices realized. [in the antiques & collectible market]
PayPal sellers might THINK they are going to receive higher/more bids due to the PayPal logo, but the reality is they are not.
If someone can point to even one antique or collectible category/item where PayPal sellers consistently sell their items for more $ than the non PayPal users, please post the item/category so we can ALL see the proof.
posted on September 4, 2001 01:35:04 PM newloggia's suggestion is excellent. people should be able to decline all paypal payments if they want to. would you please comment on this, damon?
paypal almost lost me as a customer when they raised their rates twice within a very short period of time. if it weren't for the 1.5% back on the debit card and the fact that i too had trouble understanding exactly how c2it worked and how much it cost, i'd have dropped paypal.
i doubt loosecannon, and sellers like him, are losing out on bidders. he's said many times most of his buyers prefer to pay by check anyway.
this isn't true for me, or for sellers like me. 50-80% (depending on the week) of my buyers prefer paying with paypal, the rest with money orders. i admit i love getting the fast payments - sometimes within minutes of auction's end - and the trips to the bank it saves me. the only repeating problem i have is buyers making a typo when entering my email address, and thinking they've paid me.
today i'm considering bidding on several things from a seller. what's stopping me is, primarily, she doesn't accept paypal. i'll go back again and decide how much i want the items, but this is a case where it is quite honestly making me hesitate - purely because i have the $ in my paypal account and it would be so easy for me, and i don't want to wait for my check to clear.
posted on September 4, 2001 01:36:08 PM new
I don't recall anyone saying offering PayPal gets your more sales or higher dollar sales.
What I do know is that undisputable FACT that those who do NOT accept PayPal reduce their potential pool of bidders than those who do offer it.
Even it just one buyer passes on the auction ONLY because PayPal is not accepted, this FACT is proven true. And since we've had many here who as buyers have indicated this is their behavior, then this is a proven FACT.
As such, you may still do well with the reduced pool of bidders -- but you still have a reduced pool of bidders.
posted on September 4, 2001 01:43:25 PM new
LC, I'm with you all the way.
After fighting it until I was weary, I signed up with Paypal, and gave them the information to be verified. (The very next morning, Paypal announced their fees, remember?)
I went along with it for awhile; then Paypal began accessing people's bank accounts. To be sure I was safe, I had to close the nine-year-old business bank account that I had used for verification. What a hurt!
I decided if anyone else wanted to use Paypal, I would take a check, and ship upon receipt of check, just like any other transaction. (Bear in mind that many people use Paypal not because they are too lazy to write a check or lick a stamp, but because they want something and need to charge it. And before someone jumps on me, I did say "many", not "all".)
However, I live in a very small town with no door-to-door delivery, only rural route. In town, we have to have a post office box - or use General Delivery, of course. So what is Paypal's latest smart lick? They won't mail a check to a p.o. box!
Now I cannot take Paypal! And I say so in every auction. But I always get one or two who email me asking if I take it, and I reply very graciously that we can't or don't, and remind them that we will be happy to honor their personal checks for their convenience.
However, I had an auction end Tuesday, August 21. Winner didn't respond to my EOA notice until Wednesday, 8/22....and in her response she told me to "be prepared for a Paypal payment", as they were going on vacation. (????)
I immediately emailed her, and reminded her that we don't take Paypal; also told her that if delivery was a problem due to the vacation, we could and would hold her shipment until she was ready for it.
Can you guess the rest? On Thursday, 8/23, I got the "Dreaded Notice"...."so-and-so has sent you money"...or however they phrase it.
I emailed again; told her we had been notified of her attempt to pay, and she needed to reverse or cancel the payment and send us a check or money order...and did she need our address again?
To date...not a word from her.
Yeah, I will file NPB and FVF on her, and probably neg when the time comes. She violated my TOS, and didn't pay.
Will she retaliate with a neg? Most likely. Will eBay do anything about such a blatant misuse of the feedback system? Double doubt it.
Thanks, Paypal. We who don't give you your way really are made to pay the price, aren't we?...and I don't mean in bids.
And BTW, PPD...once again you are on here whining that you can't control what your customers do. But you could control how you advertise, and what options you present to a potentital receiver of questionable service.
Sorry to be so long, LC, but as I said, I'm right with you.
[ edited by gc2 on Sep 4, 2001 01:54 PM ]
[ edited by gc2 on Sep 4, 2001 02:00 PM ]
posted on September 4, 2001 01:47:11 PM new
Hi kittykittykitty,
I have passed along the feature request for accept/deny all payments to our Product team (this feature would only be able to work for parties holding an account). I am not sure if, or when, it will be implemented.
posted on September 4, 2001 01:48:37 PM new
kiawok,
On a unique item that some collector wants I don't know that it makes any difference. But on items where the buyer has multiple choices it makes a difference for me.
Luckily for me, I closed my account before I ever had a bad encounter.
You could apply the same logic to parking your car and walking the first time you passed a nasty auto accident.
Here's another question anyone can answer or ignore. Are electronic person to person payments over the internet a fad?
posted on September 4, 2001 02:16:50 PM new
UARU: "Luckily for me, I closed my account before I ever had a bad encounter."...."You could apply the same logic to parking your car and walking the first time you passed a nasty auto accident."
HUH???????I mean c'mon, I know it's the end of the day so maybe I'm a bit slow, but WHAT???????? My point was, I am grateful that while I was signed up with PayPayl that I did not have any bad luck like alot of people did. I remember all too well the horror stories of those who post here.
posted on September 4, 2001 02:36:50 PM new
If you think calling them PlayPal is bad you should hear what I call them but for the moment I want to keep my posting privileges here.
After getting taken by PlayPal and them raising their fees every 30 days a few months back, I have now polietly asked people in my EOA notice to not use PayPal cause of the high costs and the problems with them. They may if they wish but I would perfer they not. I have reduced my PayPal payments a bunch this way. Not eliminated them by any means. I still took in $200 this weekend by them but did almost $400.00 by Billpoint and another $400 in checks and money orders. This is by selling $1.75 - $12.00 items.
(this feature would only be able to work for parties holding an account). A quick way to get more customers to tout, sign them up so they quit getting messages to take it. They have the best marketing department in the world! Soon they wil have more members than eBay.
It makes no difference to me when I bid if a person takes paypal or not.
posted on September 4, 2001 02:42:55 PM new
You folks can say what you want but I phased PayPal out after they sent out that letter saying that Billpoint was taking food out of their children's mouths because I was concerned that they were going under.Later Paypal Damon said to me on this board that they had a two hundred million dollar capitol to work with.After that I stopped using them completly because I think they are rather sleazy to lie like that.My sales in August were the best they have ever been at this time of year.(I've been on ebay a few years)People love that billpoint Pay Now button on the auctions.When people ask me to accecpt paypal I politley explain to them that I don't and it has never been a problem.I have very few deadbeats but I think that depends more on what you sell than it does on weather you take paypal or not.Paypal is a very sleazy company and they will do anything,including starting troll like threads on these boards to get business.
posted on September 4, 2001 04:06:31 PM new
I saw it the other way, eBay being very sleazy for making the default Billpoint without telling anybody and then calling it a computer glitch. Yeah, right.
I can see many people resisting the use of PayPal or equivalent services and it must have been the same way with merchants refusing to accept the dreaded credit cards back in the 1960's. "My customers don't care if I take their cards" was probably heard lot back then too.
Confucius say: "When the winds of change blow, the foolish man builds a windbreak and the wise man builds a windmill".
posted on September 6, 2001 05:24:33 PM new
I stopped accepting PP after trying it for 6-8 months or so and never looked back. Too much BS to deal with them, and just not worth the hassle. I've had a total of 2 people try to pay with pp since then, but no major problems. I say clearly in my auctions I take checks, mo, but sorry, no paypal. Of course I'm strictly small change and list just 8-10 items a month these days, but for me, giving paypal access to my pocketbook wasn't worth the risk any more.
posted on September 6, 2001 05:55:04 PM newI realize that it can be frustrating, but please realize that there is no way for PayPal to control the behavior of individuals
I don't buy that. A few lines of code on your website would make it impossible to "pay" someone that doesn't have an account.
I have passed along the feature request for accept/deny all payments to our Product team (this feature would only be able to work for parties holding an account).
Why in the world can it "only be able to work for parties holding an account"? The code to refuse payments to non account holders would be easier to write. Tell us the real reason
I'm with Loosecannon on this one, paypal has "thrown a monkey wench" into too many of my deals.
posted on September 7, 2001 05:02:05 AM new
As a long time reader of this site I know this
50% of us Dislike paypal
50% of us love paypal
and 100% of us are convinced we are right !!
I am on the side of the folks who Dislike paypal - and I do not accept paypal payments
I have found the folks at c2it to be much more receptive and I love the 24 hour - real person - who actually gets any problem solved - customer service.
Also, I feel "safe" leaving my money sitting in my c2it account - not true when I had money in my paypal account, I tried to get it out as fast as possible, leaving only a token amount in there, and I KNOW, most paypal users are afaid to leave much cash in there paypal account, c'mon now, admit it, you keep that account as low as possible, cause back in your mind is the fear that you may be the next to get the shaft form paypal. Yeah, I know someone is gonna get on here and say they leave $10,000 in there paypal account at all times and they are not in the least concerned. Bull, you can say what you want, but in the very back corner of your mind is that fear, face it, admit it, then get rid of it.
I have no bad feelings for those who cheer paypal, I actually am concerned for them, and I know that most of them will be safe
( at least I hope so)
I just happen to be on the other (right) side.
posted on September 7, 2001 05:35:17 AM new
I have also been trying to decide if I should break down and go ahead and upgrade but what kind of protection do you really have? Can chargebacks be done for anything other than a person not receiving their item or fraud? Which PayPal is supposed to protect you from if you follow their rules. I only want to accept Bank Verified Instant Transfers or E-Checks or from a personal account and not credit card payments. If I upgrade would I be able to only accept those payments? I have searched PayPals site and can't find this kind of info any where. Any help.
Thanks
posted on September 7, 2001 06:29:28 AM new
paypaldamon:
"there is no way for PayPal to control the behaviour of individuals"
Do you think you are addressing idiots??!!
Of course you can control it. Only allow your customers to send your so called
payments to registered sellers. Stop wasting my time and the time of your customers
by allowing them to send Paypal to me when I don't want it
(BTW I don't consider it getting paid unless the money is put in the mail, not in some
goofy virtual account which can be frozen on a whim, where my hard earned money
serves to line your pockets) It is quite clear you don't care about sellers who don't
want it, you would think that you would care about your clients who are then put
through the rigmarole of cancelling payments. Wait! I know why, because then your
customer becomes irate at the seller who doesn't accept Paypal rather than Paypal,
further reinforcing your despicable strong arm tactics.
posted on September 7, 2001 06:36:53 AM new
I agree with NARU. Of course Paypal can control anything they want, if they just wanted to!! Obviously they don't want to become involved. If a bidder tries to send a payment to someone who isn't even registered, it makes perfectly good sense that they should IMMEDIATELY receive a message that reads "NO SUCH ACCOUNT". This would save everyone alot of headaches!!!
posted on September 7, 2001 06:45:29 AM new
I don't accept PP either, and from my experience, it doesn't reduce my sales at all. My sell through rate has been around 90% the last couple of months, with items usually selling the second time around if they are relisted.
Write complete descriptions, use good pictures, and keep your customer service top notch. If you are not going to use online payments, then be willing to take personal checks. Don't gouge with shipping and handling fees, be polite and prompt. Set reasonable prices, sell good quality items, and package well. Don't cop attitudes with buyers, be mature and professional.
That is what sells.
I have one question for PP...how can it be impossible to set up the system to only accept payments for existing PP users? It seems to me that would really cut down on the Customer Service calls etc. I can't pay my electric bill via my phone company, or my mortgage payment through my cable company. Why does PP take payments intended for people who are not members of PP? Seems very underhanded to me. The fact that PP can't manage this is enough to keep me away from them.
posted on September 7, 2001 06:52:11 AM new
I take both Paypal and Billpoint. Does that get me higher or more bids? I have no clue.
But I do know this-I will not bid on an auction that does not take one or the other. I like being able to pay in a matter of minutes. For those of you that have called this lazy-that's no more fair than calling those of you that don't take Paypal foolish. Lazy has nothing to do with it. It's my choice. I'm not going to fool with a check or money order.
