posted on September 4, 2001 07:21:06 PM
imabrit: I see the lowballing of prices in several different areas also. I think some of it is newbies who don't understand the value of what they have and others who think that offering a lower price = more sales and profit, which is definitely not so. I keep my prices higher than most of the competition yet still sell more than the lowballers.
Another problem I am seeing is not so much competition but lack of buyers overall. Ebay is not attracting enough new buyers to support the amount of listings. Why is it that 4 years ago I could sell 100 of an item per week every week, but now the same type of item won't sell well at all even though there is less than a dozen total listings for the same item? Lack of buyers!
posted on September 4, 2001 08:08:34 PM
I believe there are number of factors involved in what has been, and will probably continue to happen on eBay with low prices and fewer bidders no matter what the category or item that is being sold, most of which have been mentioned.
My sense is that during these times it is still possible to make a good profit by making the effort to try to list higher end items. It takes more research and more searching to find these items, and I end up listing fewer items. But it is my experience that even in bad economic times the rich are still rich and continue to spend.
posted on September 4, 2001 08:32:54 PM
Are there stats to show that there are fewer bidders or buyers now?
I ask this because there seem to be more bidders than ever for the items I am interested in. I purchase mostly in the antique & collectible categories and notice that ending prices are higher for most items than they were a couple of years ago.
Again, I think it all depends on what a person is selling or buying. I do get a few bargains but the majority of good collectibles seem to be getting high bids. I don't see this changing in the near future.
While some prices in particular catergories might be rising, the overall market is spiralling downward in a tailspin. In most areas it is not even a question of supply, as formerly valuable items are still getting pennies on the dollar even when they are scarce.
I refuse to even list my truly valuable stock on eBay. I am not about to take $10 for a $200 18th century First Edition.
One part of the problem is buyers simply getting leery of shady vendors who have misrepresented items or simply cheated them. They now prefer the 'real' antique shops ever more since they can see what they are paying for. And not have to worry about receiving it with a bunch of horrendous 'handling' charges.
Another is disaffected or incompetent sellers who simply want to dump their stock so they can move back to their day jobs without having to put the stuff on the curb.
But those who are mostly to blame are the dollar-no-reserve people who are simply killing the value of their merchandise. And doing a disfavor to all, including themselves. Once Tiffany Vases and Faberge Eggs start at DNR their prices may skyrocket shortly, but soon thereafter the prices will tumble even if scarcity is maintained. The public will come to believe that these items are really worth their opening bids, and soon be reluctant to bid higher. I have seen some fool DNR a rare $20 bill, and have it come up alot short of its face value. There are elements of marketing psychology involved here too. This happened in software when programmers would drop the cost of their programs to around $10, and sales fell off since people automatically assumed the product was worthless. On eBay this means the serious buyers and collectors have left in disgust, and if your $700 vidcam has closed for $2 (which I've seen) it means thats what the bottom feeders thought it was worth.
And then there are folks like me who snub their noses at DNR's on principle, especially since I only bid at the last few seconds of an auction anyway. I have NOT bid on some DNR's since I have had the gut feeling that the item *must* be somehow defective for the seller to be so foolhardy.
And this is probably another reason why DNRs are killing categories. If I am going to buy an expensive item, I would like to believe that the seller has at least some respect for it and appreciation of its value - this helps with confidence with the transaction. And DNR's totally remove that element.
Sorry, GreetingsfromUK, but your 'strategy' is part of the problem that is killing the market. Not only here, but on other 'free' auctions as well where the teeming masses expect DNR's and other foolishly low openings that would be suicidal with their traffic.
I have simply stopped listing many types of items on eBay and either place them on Bidville or a 'real' market.
posted on September 4, 2001 10:18:04 PMWhile some prices in particular catergories might be rising, the overall market is spiralling downward in a tailspin.
Really, I must have missed it?
Have the prices in some categories dropped due to the increased amount of similar merchandise being listed, for sure ...... is the overall market spiralling downward in a tailspin, not likely.
All one has to do is perform a completed search, then click on highest prices first, and you'll find that there are NUMEROUS items fetching as much, and in some case MUCH more, than they were 4 years ago.
Here's a classic example.
No back, power wiring is original and in poor condition, probably missing window over display, knobs need replacing, no cracks in case but back is missing, wear on surface with white paint spatters. This [edited] radio would be a great fixer up, or source for parts.
Sounds like a real crapper huh? Not only that but the 2 weenie little pics were crappy as well.
It started at $49.99 with NO reserve, and 20 bids later ended at close to $9,000.00
Perhaps the market for 17th & 18th century bibles is weak, but IMO the OVERALL antique & collectible market on eBay is still alive & well.
posted on September 4, 2001 10:19:18 PM
I agree that starting too much stuff in a category out low will filter into the buyers' unconcious eventually, and manifest as "it isn't worth much".
This is why the master retailers HATE to reduce their actual, day-to-day retail prices. They'll pay ridiculous amounts to process and distribute coupons, or to establish a fake "suggested retail price"...etc etc.
I noticed this when selling at antiques malls--price it low and it's ignored. Price it high and it (often) flies off the shelves.
The spiral is there, you just gotta learn to ignore the glitches to see it. I sell antique radios. I have noticed an overall price decline as compared to 'list' values. I have also sold radios at many times that list value. That does not contradict the trend. The radio example you gave was probably for an old Marconi or Atwater-Kent whose book value would have been in the stratosphere anyway.
Sales wise, this year is actually better than last on the average. But this is with extreme care paid as to what items to list and how much to expect from them. Last year I sold fewer items of more variety for more profit than this year. I can still pull in $70 for a 10 cent book, but just not as frequently as last year. Fellow vendors are leaving ebay since they cannot pay their bills as they once did. I can dump some treasures and pull in a few thousand this week. But I know in the right market that they would pull in 2-3 times as much. eBay is simply not the right market. It is losing steam. Exceptions do not invalidate this trend.
posted on September 4, 2001 11:33:25 PM
Some good conversation here.
My take on the situation is that the collectibles/antiques market on eBay is going to have to go fixed price. Save the auction format for items that are truly scarce and desireable.
The trick will be to maintain a deep inventory, with most items listed in an eBay store or your own web site, whatever.
posted on September 4, 2001 11:48:31 PM
It is up to me to compete within the market place, I can invest more time, money, effort, intellect. and maybe have a little more luck.
It is not up to me and you to determine market value, the market will decide, if you think an item ‘worth’ $200 is being sold @ $10 then put your money where your mouth is and buy the sucker. Otherwise you loose the argument, end of story.
BUT I CAN NOT COMPETE WITH THIEVES.
The so-called ‘hobbyists’ is a pain in the cheque/check-book-but.
Not paying federal income tax, or the appropriate state sales taxes, meanwhile competing against honest self-proclaimed dealers. You know who you are some have been NOT DEALERS for 40 years now.
Why don’t all of you hobbyists, go and get a real job and pay some tax and don’t accuse me of not paying tax, because by definition we all know that YOU DON’T.
I hope the taxation authorities get you all & BIG-TIME. & Makes us HONEST DEALERS lives easier.
Do you declare your sales to the tax man or do you ‘claim’ to only sell 2 items a year.
And your big excuse??
You only sell to upgrade/improve your collection?? (ie increase value of assets)
How is that not the same as only selling to improve the value of your share portfolio???
And perhaps some ‘collectors’ would have us believe that they are benevolent benefactors when they pay less than any specialist dealer and less than most dealers. Even a low level full time dealer needs to spend more than an amount equal to a week’s wages EVERY WEEK too make a week’s wages.
Y’ep I blame the hobbyist.
10 of you bludgers making $10 each so I can’t make my $100.
And don’t hit me with the ‘rip off grannies’ bit because they don’t want to sell to me, just like you they want to sell at auction, and that’s where my stock comes from.
DEALERS OF THER WORLD UNITE!! GIVE UP A HOBYIST TO YOU TAX MAN TODAY.
Business may improve quicker than you think.
[ edited by costa on Sep 5, 2001 06:28 AM ]
posted on September 4, 2001 11:48:55 PM
Nope, the radio wasn't either of those makes.
I know a radio collector that has been buying on eBay before eBay was called eBay. Last year he confessed he's dropped over 100 K on radios he's sniped on eBay. I believe it as I've seen his collection, and I know he makes enough bucks to afford them. The ironic part is that he's been getting beat a lot in this past year by bidders with a higher proxy. Some of the radio prices have been going bonkers!
He certainly wouldn't agree with your comments. He's also registered here on AW [but seldom posts these days] so maybe I'll give him a jingle in the AM?
But I know in the right market that they would pull in 2-3 times as much. eBay is simply not the right market
Exactly! eBay is most definitely not the 'right' market for ALL items, nor has it ever been. The trick is knowing which is, and which aint.
KathyG
Why would the collectibles/antiques market on eBay have to go to fixed prices? How could this possibly create a stronger market?
If it wasn't for the auction format I'd have been gone a long time ago.
posted on September 5, 2001 05:32:47 AM
As a seller who would likely be labelled a "hobbyist" and as a buyer who would be labelled a "bottomfeeder" by the so-called "professionals" posting on this board all I can say is "boo hoo".
I may be a part time seller but I hardly do it is as a hobby....I do it to build up my children's educational fund. I keep complete records and pay my taxes. I am sure my stuff would be derided as junk, but I list it for what I need to get for it to make ME happy and not what some effete professional thinks it should be worth. As long as I make a decent profit on the item sold I don't care how much some expert thinks it might be worth.
As a buyer, I have no control over the minimum bid listed by the seller. I have no control over how many other people bid on the item. If no one else bids on it, the seller has no idea how high my proxy bid was, so being labeled a bottomfeeder because I ended up getting an item for less than it might be worth is insulting. Would it make the seller feel better if I said "wow, I bid $50.00 but got this item for $5!"???
The issues I see are:
1. There are more experienced bidders now. It doesn't take long to realize that if you place early high proxy bids you can often end up paying more in the end than if you just waited and sniped. I usually place a lowball bid when I first see the item and then set up a snipe with my max. The dopey underbidder thinks his max proxy bid of 50-cents or a $1 over my original bid will win and whines about my snipe because if he had "only known" he would have bid more.
2. Lots of full time power sellers have no clue what they are selling. I have snared some really valuable items for a couple of bucks because these full time professional sellers don't take the time to figure out exactly what it is they are selling. These were usually accompanied by a title like "glass bowl" which is not going to pull the browsers into the listing.
3. Lazy sellers...whether hobbyists or pros...crappy pictures, little description, and my favorite -- items in the wrong categories. I could give you a huge list of "bargains" I picked up because the item was in the wrong category. The seller either didn't notice or didn't care enough to revise the listing.
4. Overuse of "rare". Again, both pros and hobbyists are equally guilty of this. Regular eBay buyers pay no attention to that word because it has become so meaningless. What is "rare" and "hard to find" in my local area might have 20 listings on eBay...why should I bid high on one when I know another one will pop up soon enough?
5. High shipping and handling charges. This year's postal rate increase was a killer for low priced items. Paying $6-$10 for shipping obviously impacts how much I am willing to pay for an item regardless of what its book value might be.
Low minimum bids are not the problem and wishing the sellers would raise them to help support your prices is not the solution. If your presentation is good and your price reasonable AND you manage to connect with the people who want your item that week, you will be successful.
Sorry for the long post, but I am really tired of part time sellers and bidders who luck out and get an item for less than it is worth being slammed and held responsible for the woes of the pros.
Gerald
"Oh but it's so hard to live by the rules/I never could and still never do."
posted on September 5, 2001 06:15:33 AM
I do think part of weaker prices now is the classic recessionary economy thinking process. More people are holding their available cash tighter, more people are noticing they have 30% less assets in their investment accounts this year as opposed to 30% more last year and the year before.
Having a few more listings each cycle where that ONE extra bidder with deep pockets does NOT appear to bid today's winner up past his proxy max makes a big difference to sellers' bottom lines. The LAST bidder is never the problem, sniper or not... the problem is the decision by someone else to have bid a low proxy, or not to have bid at all.
I'm following a general strategy of listing mostly somewhat flawed items, accurately described, (collectibles market, mostly with definable catalog values available) with no reserve and low starts, and holding better material out for some other day or fixed-price venue. I think the market on the low-end stuff may get worse and worse over the next couple of years so would rather liquidate a lot now at whatever today's market is, recycling the funds into upgraded quality even if I don't sell it now.
Our best scenario is for economic improvement and a recovery of the equity markets... a BIG recovery. If too many more general consumers lose confidence and spiral downwards more in their spending patterns it will get very ugly for sellers everywhere who are carrying substantial inventories bought at yesterday's prices. Any dumping effect seen now would get worse and worse...
posted on September 5, 2001 06:25:04 AM
NothingYouNeed,
If your doing it for profit, you too are a ‘pro’ if your paying your taxes on those profits, then you’re an honest pro.
We are on equal ground the only difference being that dealing is my MAIN/FULL-TIME taxable income, and you are PART-TIME.
I am not criticising you, I have no right too, you are doing nothing illegal, only competing with me legally.
It’s those other parasites I have a problem with, like I said, I can’t compete with thieves.
We switched to Roadrunner so we got a new email address and thats why the change on the user id as the old email address is no longer valid.
As to the 2 negs from the same bidder,I asked her why she said she did not like my reminder payment emails.
So she negged me over them really annoyed me as I have not had a negative in 2 years.
All it was is a simple reminder payment.
As to the items I was talking about that are starting at 5.00 by some sellers.I sold 5 of the 10 items I had listed in the category and they paid what I was asking for them.
posted on September 5, 2001 07:46:53 AM
There were two recent studies that showed that prices on antiques and collectibles had dropped between 25% and 39.5% over the past year. These studies got quite a bit of play over the summer, and in fact eBay did eventually admit that they had "no reason to doubt" the studies. This isn't to say, however, that unique, one-of-a-kind items still won't do extremely well on eBay.
My own belief is that sellers who deal in one particular type of item are much more vulnerable to slowdowns in sales, versus a dealer who has access to a wide variety of inventory and can quickly switch over to a more profitable item.
posted on September 5, 2001 08:10:37 AM
many seasoned dealers shop on ebay and if they see individuals selling off one piece of heirloom,they could bid high as long as they can sell them for more in their store.
someone mentioned moving to high end items-yes,you make more money but it costs more to stock.
ebay is selling the aution results to price guide folks so just think what the new batch of price guides come out,prices will be much lower???
posted on September 5, 2001 08:11:23 AM
imabrit/Adrian,
I sympathize with you. I don't get it either. And it was upsetting to me until I found two other venues to sell on - one online and one b&m.
If you can wait for the shake-out, (I think and hope) it will go something like this. Some sellers will sell items for ridiculously low prices, making not much money in the process. Their competitors will get disgusted and sell elsewhere. Eventually only crap will be on eBay. Customers will disappear. Now the sellers making not much money will leave. This leaves the door open for sellers with a clue to come back in and sell their items at a reasonable mark-up. And so the customers will come back. (Though as most businesses should know, it's easier and less expensive to keep a customer than to get a new one.)
Personally, I'll let my stuff sit three months in a b&m before I'd give it away on eBay.
By the way, you see this at Amazon also. I still can't understand how anyone sells a 75 cent book on Amazon (or half) when both of those venues get at least 15%! I usually list at a fair price and am hardly ever the lowest price on a book listed, and I'm happy with my results at Amazon. I won't deal with half.com since a lot of my "diversification" is a result of not wanting to be under eBay's thumb for all of my income.
posted on September 5, 2001 09:59:26 AM
I can see 2 sides of this issue from a seller's perspective.
1. I used to be able to price my books at a nice starting price so that if they got 1 bid, I'd still be happy. Over the last 6 months, my sell-through suffered and I got tired of the endless relisting of the same old items. My profits rapidly eroded with the continued fees. (Yes, I take full responsibility for buying way too much stuff ahead of time before waiting to see what had the best sales possibilities.)
2. So about a month ago I became one of those sellers who started items out super low in the hopes of attracting more attention and improving my sell-through rate. It has done that and although many items close for less than I'd hope, I'm pleasantly surprised by the results of others. And for me, it's an effective way of weeding out all the stuff that doesn't have a good sales potential.
No, I don't like contributing to the downward price spiral. I've got a choice between nearly giving the stuff away at or slightly above cost vs. throwing the questionable items in the garbage. And I'm not certain that I'm even qualifed to judge what is questionable or not. I've been surprised on stuff that I look at and say, no I wouldn't buy that again today to resell. It turns out to go better than I could have thought. Then other items that I figure are going to sell for some good money, well, they go for the opening bid.
Sure, I can refuse to list so low and just throw the questionable stuff out and start over again. But I really do hate to just throw books away.
If I can see some signs that things are improving, I'll be glad to raise my opening bids.
BTW, I am trying to protect myself a bit and put a BIN on some. And I do sell some items for the BIN. So some want it cheap, and some want it now.
posted on September 5, 2001 10:04:12 AM
Why are prices in certain categories lower? It's simple actually: competition. Lots of people sellng the same thing.
If you aren't happy with the profits a certain item brings you, don't sell it on ebay any more. Problem solved.
As a seller, I have no obligation to uphold the perceived value of anything I sell, or the long-term integrity of the item's market. If I want to slash and burn through a category for a quick profit, I will. I don't, but lots of other people do. It's competition. It's fair. Deal with it.
But don't cry about other people "unercutting" you. Business is business. If you're gone, I do better. If I'm gone, you do better.
Guess what folks? All the low-hanging grapes have been picked. We have to work harder to make less money.
posted on September 5, 2001 10:12:59 AM
eBay has to some degree changed the process of presentation.
In years past I did Flea Markets and never tried to establish a specialty although I did favor wood furniture.
I would find things during the week and offer them on the weekends.
Many of my repeat customers were dealers with shops.
They might add value by refinishing or polishing items and always added value by presenting the items in their up scale shops, providing greater knowledge of the characteristics of a piece and having a cliental of customers and decorators with whom they had built a reputation over years of providing focused quality service.
I made a profit for my function and I never begrudged them being able to resell an item for several times what they paid me. They had earned access to an ongoing market that was not available to me.
eBay has blurred the distinction between the pickers like myself and upscale dealers who have substantial investment and overhead in established businesses.
Both of us can now directly present our items to a global marketplace and their hard won local reputation earned over 20 or 30 years of business has much less importance online.
I recently acquired box lots of religious books from a minister's estate at a very low cost. Range was 50 to 100 years old. Ten years ago they would not have been worth dragging to Flea Markets and I would be fortunate to find a dealer from whom I could make a small profit.
Today I can quickly research them on ABE etc., check price and presentation on closed eBay listings and easily offer then individually with a nice profit at below dealer prices.
I'll be in and out of the older religious book market in 6 to 8 weeks, reach a global audience, sell below market but still make a good net and move on to the next find.
The presence of people like myself going in and out of every category has to be disruptive to the normal market where long term dealers have to maintain higher prices to cover necessary overhead and inventory costs.
I'm almost like an immigrant worker that shows up and undercuts the established local hourly wage structure and then moves on without paying the costs of the local standard of living.
There is one scenario that repeats itself daily on eBay. A knowledgeable dealer present a quality item at a fair price and attracts strong bidder interest. A bunch of other people have the same item and maybe no idea what it is or what the value might be.
They all list, start at a lower price and are delighted to get almost anything for an item they did not know had much value.
Bidding interest wanes on the first item and it does not reach a final price that may have been attained if "instant" competitive items had not been offered.
I think one of the casualties of this marketplace, including qualities that are being devalued, is the intangible of knowledge and reputation that a specialist brings to their field.
posted on September 5, 2001 04:11:25 PM
This is an interesting thread. I have listed a lot that got a very high price and within a week the market was flooded with them! My lot sold to Costa Rica! Guess I need to stay ahead of my competition.
[ edited by GreetingsfromUK on Sep 5, 2001 04:37 PM ]
posted on September 5, 2001 04:45:14 PM
ray,
very interesting insight.
if i read this up to a year ago,i may agree.
weekend warriors and dablers and seasoned professional line up side by side hawking similar wares using the same venue,but as playboy magazine said in the haydays,we dont sell the steak ,we sell the sizzle.
in the collectibles and antiques business,a good seasoned dealer sells both -his item is in good condition,his pictures is crisp and so is the description which exhibits a flair not found among the amateurs,of course if he is e commerce savvy,he will answer email promptly and deploy all the e commerce tools like paypal and billpoint.
there are some dealers who fit this description and they are doing well,not fantastic and then there are many medicocre ones who bore us to death with their TERM OF SALES,who is reading by the way???
this is my sixth year on ebay and many of the old timers have dropped out,my gut feeling tells me the survivors of the fittest will be the good land dealers who know how to function in cyberspace plus the new breed of cyber sellers who not only work hard but work smart as well,lets hope all those on AW fit this category.
posted on September 5, 2001 04:58:07 PM
I am a hobby seller to The World. I guess I can compete with any professional seller in The World, starting with price, presentation, customer service and terms.
posted on September 5, 2001 05:23:02 PM
Adrian,
Thanks for starting this thread.
I guess you are living in "Times Past" You are now competing with an Internatioal Market Place.
posted on September 5, 2001 05:26:43 PM
We see this in the catagories we deal in. Sellers listing prices that I can not comprehend. Even if I had payed nothing, I would ask more. THEN we get the rest of the situation. The bidders become more suspicious and shrill. Asking about quality and demanding gaurentees. I try to point out that I am a professional dealer, one who has dealt in the field for 25 years. And never put up anything that I have not seriously cleaned and examined. But still here about the bad experience with the bargain. Well, not our fault. We offer things with assurances and clear factual descriptions. And we note errors. In 2 1/2 years have had two returns on over 2,000 auctions. Seems like eBay is a place where each of us must establish our own reputation and standards. Wish there were someway to put that on the catagory page. 'Offered by established, reputable dealer' or whatever. If feedbacks were next to the listings of each item on the search page, would this make a difference?
posted on September 5, 2001 05:42:08 PM
GreetingsfromUK
Okay lets see here I have shipped to the UK,Greece,Italy,France,Germany,Ireland,Australia,South Africa,Japan,Singapore,Israel,Egypt,Saudi Arabia etc etc.Its always been an international market out there.
I think you are missing the point of the reason I started this thread.
The competition is fine I can handle it but what I do not understand is why list at item at 5.00 dollars and sell it for 10.00.When for the past 3 years its brought 25.00 or more.
Thats not competition but lack of business sense.The whole idea in any business is to maximise profit not sell at cheaply as possible and make as little profit as possible.
You are up late too me be almost 3am in the morning your time.
Where in the home country are you as I was born in Liverpool but lived in Wales most of my life.Can speak Welsh too but a whole lot of good that does me.
